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How to make Dirt Rally 3.0 a masterpiece


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Stages and stage features
Basics: Dirt Rally 3.0 must have a wide array of stages and locations in order to stay relevant and to be playable for many years to come. Dirt Rally 1 and 2 had some amazing locations and stages (most notable for me would be: Sweet Lamb Wales, Anonduous Farmakas Greece) however, 2 long stages with reverses for each Location simply is not enough to stay fresh. I think Dirt Rally 3.0 should aim for 4 long stages, but 5 for each location would be perfect. The devs should aim to add 2 or 3 new long stages to the current existing locations from DR1 and DR2 and have these existing locations but with new additional stages as release content, whilst making the new locations as DLC. The devs should also *EXTEND* the existing stages by adding new parts to the stages (such as extensions to the end or start) to make the existing stages longer.

Surfaces: There should also be a variety of surfaces, for example, a new stage in Wales could feature a long tarmac road section with some gravel segments, and Spain could have some tarmac which is filled with dust and gravel which can make the road more slippery. Again, making the stages great is their diversity and difference from one and another, and I think a mixup of surface types would do this justice. There could also be additional improvements to the surface degradation as well as some surface changes e.g mud, icy roads, dusty roads and bumps/potholes/cracks. Stages could also be affected by seasons, for example, Finland during Winter could be filled with snow, making all the stages in Finland snowy (Arctic Finland) with no banks and snow walls like Sweden, making all Finnish stages feel completely new and unique with these surface changes. Monaco's ice and snow can be melted in hotter seasons, making the stages completely tarmac with no ice or snow. For the new locations which can be added as DLC, I have came up with 8 classic and famous locations which deserve to be included.

New Locations: Italy, Portugal, Corsica, Japan, Mexico, Turkey, Chile, Kenya and Ireland. If you don't know about these stages, I suggest you look them up or take a look at WRC9, they include some of these locations. I think these locations would be perfect for a game like Dirt Rally 3, and with EA purchasing Codemasters, I think their team is big enough to make this happen. A big feature of stages that was missed by codemasters was narrow segments, I think that there has to be more narrow segments, and when I mean narrow, I mean narrow, variety, diversity is what will make this game. If everything feels and looks the same then it will not feel good... make each location FEEL like it has its own personality, what makes Greece stand out from Wales? What will make Italy stand out from Portugal? Each location has to have its own character, Greece for example has its own character of being on mountainous terrains with big drops, whilst Wales has lots of banks, marsh and dense woods. I think that surface mixups and road diversity can make each stage and location feel like it is its own, so a mixup of surfaces will be perfect for making each stage feel different. As well as the idea of implementing seasons which could affect the surfaces, such as making them icy, bumpy, dusty, wet, snowy, will allow each individual stage to feel completely different with these surface changes. Let me give you an example of how a future locations stages could look like. Additionally, locations should not be limited to 1 province, for example, Wales should not be limited to the Powys province, Italy could feature Sardegna and Sanremo province. On a side note, I would love to see these stages added: Ouninpohja for Finland, El chocolate for Mexico, El condor for Argentina, Saint Auban and Col Du Turni for monaco, bring in some famous WRC stages Codemasters!
edit: Will compile an imgur of locations/stages which could be added shortly...

Example location: Italy (which should definitely be added) is a beast of its own, if there are going to be 4 or 5 long stages for each location, then each stage must feel different from one another whilst retaining the character of the location. Let me give you some examples of how this can be done. One stage for Italy could include mixtures between road tarmac and dirt, with some farms, tight roads and olive fields. Another stage could be driving through extremely tight streets and villages with extremely narrow straights and turns, another Italian stage could be climbing up a mountain (similar to monaco) with some dirt segments. There are so many possibilities, San-Remo and Sardegna should be the areas that Italy could have. 

Graphics and artstyle: I think Dirt Rally 2.0 was a perfectly designed game, graphically and artistically speaking. I do not think Dirt Rally 3.0 should undergo a huge graphical overhaul, however I do have a few suggestions to make the game feel more alive and look better. More skyboxes and times of day can make a single stage feel different each time you play it, different skies and times of days as well as some more weather effects can make the game feel much more real and alive. For example, fog and mist and heatwaves. I also think Dirt Rally 1 and 2 felt "cartoony" and not true to real life, maybe make Dirt Rally 3.0 look more realistic by changing the colour tones and lighting effects, I'm not an artist so I don't know...

Weather: No massive changes to be made here, maybe add dynamic weather in Dirt Rally 3.0? 

So in a nutshell:  Add more stages to the existing locations from DR1 and DR2, make the existing stages longer, add seasons which change the surfaces of stages e.g snow and ice and mud, improve stage degradation, add new locations as DLC with 4/5 long stages for each location. It is all about stage variety and diversity! (this is the key to making this game replayable, enjoyable and interesting for many many years to comebut a solid location will also need a solid vehicle roster...

Vehicles and class system
Class system: To clear things up, the current class system we have in Dirt Rally 2.0 is good enough, however I believe Dirt Rally 3.0 could have a revamped and overhauled class system to make the game feel more balanced and in touch with the timeline. I think the current class system should stay in place, however there could be an alternative default class system as well as the addition to create your own class to make your championships and gameplay experience feel unique and realistic for you. For the alternative default class system, I think the class system should be changed to time and power. For example, instead of H1 H2 and H3, we can have a timelined system: 1960s, early 70s, mid 70s, late 70s, early 80s, mid 80s, late 80s, group B early, Group B evo, early 90's, mid 90's, late 90's, Early WRC 2000's, Early WRC 2010's, Late WRC 2010's, WRC modern. This system can allow cars to stay balanced and within their respected time, and can also allow cars from earlier timelines to compete in the newer ones, albeit with power limitations. For example, a Group B car will not be able to compete in mid 90's, however mid and late 80's cars will be able to as well, depending on their power limit.

New cars: Here are the cars that I think would be perfect for the game, and would make Dirt Rally 3.0 the most complete rally game. The game will need a solid roster of classic and iconic cars, as well as some historically significant but rather unknown cars too, the more the better. Keep in mind, this list does not include the current roster we have in Dirt rally 2.0 as those cars SHOULD be included in Dirt Rally 3.0either way, as well as the 2000's cars from Dirt Rally 1 (mini countryman etc). 
Imgur/images of the cars: https://imgur.com/a/G4aSH7j
1960's: Ford Escort RS1600, Volkswagen Beetle, Renault 8 Gordini, Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV, Fiat 2300, Trabant, Saab 96, Datsun 180B
1970's: Alfa Romeo Alfetta GTV, Ford Escort RS1800, Sunbeam Lotus, Alpine A310, Mazda RX3, Mistubushi Lancer 1600, Nissan bluebird, Toyota Celica 2000GT, Skoda RS, Saab 99, Toyota Corolla TE27, Volvo 142, BMW 2002, Peugeot 504
1980's: Toyota AE86, BMW325, Mitsubushi Lancer 2000 Turbo, Ford Sierra Sapphire, mercedes Benz 190E
Group B: Citreon BX4TC, Mazda RX7, Mistubushi Starion, Nissan 240S, Toyota Twin Cam Turbo, Audi Quattro A2, Audi Quattro S1, Ferarri 308GTB, Renault 5 Turbo
Group A/1990's FWD: Citreon Saxo, Renault Clio Williams, Renault Megane Maxi, opel Kaddet GSI
Group A/1990's: Mitsubushi Galant VR4, Mitsubushi Lancer EVO 1 and 4, Toyota Celica GT4 ST165, ST185 and STI205, Audi 200
Up to 2000cc/WRC: Subaru Impreza 2003, Subaru Impreza 2007, Mitsubushi Lancer WRC, Citreon Xsara 1999 and 2003 or 2005, Citreon DS3, Skoda Octavia, Hyundai Accent, Peugeot 307, Seat Cordoba, Suzuki SX4, Ford Focus RS 2003, Toyota Corolla, Mitsubushi Evo 7, Ford Escort Cosworth WRC
Modern kit cars: MG ZR, Fiat Punto S1600, Ford Puma S1600, Suzuki Swift S1600, Fiat Punto S1600, Volkswagen Golf S1600 
R5: Hyundai i20 R5, Mitsubushi Mirage R5, Citreon DS3 R5, Proton Iriz R5

WRC cars: Toyota Prius WRC, Ford Fiesta WRC, Hyundai i20 WRC, Citreon C3 WRC, Volkswagen Polo WRC

Physics: Tarmac physics MUST be overhauled and improved to make it feel more realistic, and not like you're floating. Crash and damage must be improved too, to make crashes and mistakes more devastating and unforgiving, which can be adjusted via a difficulty/damage/hardcore slider. Jumps also need to be fixed, at the moment you can flat out on jumps without a worry in the world and make it in one piece. On a final note, improve the cockpit camera, maybe make the camera shake about to the left and right so you feel like a person IN the car, and not just a static camera inside of the car.

Online activities: Co-driver mode, rally multiplayer, custom classes, larger lobbies, more leaderboard options and filters, players ghost cars, multiplayer replays, uploading and downloading replays, ranked mode of some sorts, in-game Clubs client (can join create clubs in game rather than the wesbite), text chat as well as better voice chat

Track editor: I believe that an ambitious, track CREATOR (not random generator) would be an amazing feature for the game and community. Giving players the ability to make their own tracks with a track editor could keep the game alive for many many years to come. It could be released as an update and could be an in-game editor or as a seperate SDK. Allow players to share their tracks and for players to download. Have community contests for stage creations.

Replays: Allow players to save replays, and to have more camera options (freeform camera etc) also allow players to change replay filters and angles/interiors (fuzzy cam, dashcam, WRC cam etc, camera glitching and losing connections, going static) to let players make replays look like genuine recordings from a rally event, it will make watching replays more immersive and interesting. Maybe a spectator POV replay system would be cool too. Custom camera points etc, to make replays look and feel great, cinematic and immersive would be a huge win for the game, not only will it make watching replays enjoyable, but it could serve as a method for advertising the game just from seeing these amazing, immersive replays. 

How they can do it: If this would come to tuition, then Codemasters should release Dirt Rally 3.0 at launch with all original locations and stages from DR1 and DR2 with the addtions as mentioned (additional stages per location, extended original stages, physics/graphics changes, weather, surfaces etc) with the features as mentioned. Codemasters should aim to release 2 new locations at launch with 4/5 stages for these new locations. If I could choose the launch locations, I would personally go for Corsica and Portugal. Codemasters could then go for the seasonal DLC approach for the new locations, perhaps the new locations could be paid DLC/free, would you rather pay DLC for things that were already in DR1? (I'm looking at you DR2.0) or would you be more inclined to pay for a new location with new exciting stages that you have never played or seen before? These NEW LOCATIONS would mean players are more inclined to come back for each update to pay for the NEW and exciting locations, if Codemasters make the original stages as paid DLC as seen in DR2.0, then I do not believe that would be as viable as making new content paid DLC. I believe that codemasters should aim to release 60% of the cars I mentioned as launch content (release the iconic cars that everyone love for free: Toyota celica's, Evo's, Subaru's, oldies) whilst making some of the other more older less known but still loved cars as DLC included with each seasonal DLC update release (such as the Audi 200, AE86 etc) I do not think each car and stage should be sold seperately, they should be sold as an all in one bundle for each seasonal DLC release. The track editor could be released when DR3.0 reaches EOL, and would be the ultimate send-off to Dirt Rally 3.0, additonally the devs should aim to make Dirt Rally 3.0 mod friendly once the game has been milked for its worth, Codemasters, you have a chance to create the perfect game for this niche group, if you can make this game a masterpiece, you will control the Rally scene, there are so many people out there who would play this and spend their money just because their favourite cars/locations are featured, and because there is more content and multiplayer options, replay systems (everyone loves watching their replays, make it good), FOCUS on making the REPLAYS better, because if people can make their replays look genuine and real (with the filters and camera options etc) I mentioned, along with many more features for replays etc, such as uploading replays and sharing them. These replays can be shared online and will gain ALOT of traction if they look great, put yourself in this scenario. If you saw gameplay (same gameplay) but with a bad replay or an amazing replay which looks great, lots of angles and filters in cockpit to make it seem like a real onboard etc, which would you be more interested in watching? Bringing even more people into the series just because they saw some cool clips and replays from youtube is possible, make a good replay system with lots of customisation options. You can do this CM...

Thats it, that's the formula to make Dirt Rally 3.0 perfect. In a nutshell...
More stages for existing tracks
More locations and cars
Better physics (especially tarmac)
More surfaces and surface changes for tracks
Improved surface degradation
Seasons which change how stages look and feel
Better replay system
More online features
Track editor




 

Edited by Yellowbentine
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I think the most important suggestion is the surface variety. Or in other words the environmental variety. And im not talking about weather. Im talking about what the player sees and experiences as they go down a stage.

 To me this is the biggest void for left for improvement while keeping costs low vs adding more longer stages to address the repetitiveness issue. It may not totally fix it but it would be the next best thing to it and it makes the game closer to 100% accurate as well.

I love Australia and Monaco because they have 2 types of surface. I love certain stages in wales, scotland and parts of poland, spain and germany because on certain stages your surroundings can change as you go down it which really stands out in a game like Dr 2.0 because most of the stages are the same surroundings from start to finish.

Ive seen real life side by side comparison of some of the roads and im really surprised some of the big details were cut out  of sections to cut down on costs/time or what ever the reason why they didnt include things like the narrow cobble stone sections in the Germany or the contrast of colors of the dirt on roads in Australia and new zealand.  

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Dirt Rally 3.0 masterpiece :

1) Co driver from Dirt Rally 1 . by far the best co driver in rally games history even from Richard Burns Rally ( the king )

2) Graphics from Dirt Rally 1 , very realistic , good color balance  , very pleasant for the eyes 

3) Handling , surface feedback from the Dirt Rally 1 

4) menu, options , events from the Dirt Rally 2.0

5) Custom online events from the Dirt 4

6) New Locations and some roads wider from the Dirt Rally 2.0 

7) Multi inputs device like the Dirt Rally 2.0 

8 ) Option for custom co driver voice ,  different language 

Edited by mixalis7611
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My two cents:

 

Cars and stages: Make it easy for modders. I get that Codemasters would want to milk the title for every extra piece added, but you won't make a masterpiece without good support for mods. Simple as that, unless you can bring hundreds of tracks and every car ever made. 

Physics: "Simcade" is for stroking peoples egos. If you find a realistic sim too difficult; slow down. I don't get what's supposed to be difficult with RBR and NGP physics. It's intuitive and easy to keep the car on the road if you adjust the speed to the conditions and your skill. Seriously, what's the deal except highlighting that you actually don't have the skill to drive like Collin McRae? If you slow down and git gud it's a hell of a lot more rewarding once you find the speed. 

Simcade is like playing Guitar Hero thinking you're Eric Clapton. 

I want to see a hardcore rally sim that not only brings RBR to the modern world, but improves upon it. 

Damage: Make the damage system dynamic and realistic. Meaning, if you don't take care of the car it will break. Not only will it break but it'll break depending on how fast you hit the pothole, what car you're driving, at what angle you attack it and so on. Same thing should go for engine and transmission of course.

Graphics:  Dirt Rally 2.0 looks good enough but needs serious improvements in VR and auto exposure.  I'd rather have good performance than the prettiest graphics, as long as it looks half decent.

VR: A must have. I'll never touch a sim again without VR, no matter how good it is. No VR no buy - simple as that.

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Difficult ≠ realistic, even Kunos say that. If Codies can improve on the already amazing physics, it's going to be superb. 

Btw, It'd be easier if all ideas were gathered in the existing thread.  

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Easy does not equal realistic either. Realistic is realistic. As it happens though, rally driving is rather difficult. I find "simcade" to be quite fair for Dirt Rally, as it's a mix of realism and arcade. I personally hope for an overhaul of the physics model, where Codies aim for hardcore simulation in their next installment - something like an RBR for the modern era.

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I think DR 2.0 does a good enough job, the handling and physics feel absolutely natural and believable. 'Hardcore' seems to be a very subjective term. How do you define it? Also, which part is 'simcade' to you and which is realistic? 

I have the impression that if the tyre sidewalls aren't made of strawberry jam and you don't lose your car mid-corner for no reason some people will call it 'too easy'. But that's probably just me ^^ Whenever I watch some onboard video of real rally drivers it reminds me of how pretty darn close DR 2.0 is. Let's not forget that if you want to talk about realism you should also drive as if there were real engineers, mechanics, team owners and sponsors behind your car. If you treat it like a game, yeet your car full throttle over jumps and drive like a lunatic as if there was no tomorrow, you can't complain and shout 'ARCADE'!! The lack of real consequences lets you drive over the limit and sometimes you can get away with things, but very often you don't, DR 2.0 is punishing enough. Sure, it's easy to finish a stage, but it's very difficult to get even a top 50 on a competitive leaderboard. 

Edited by richie
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6 hours ago, richie said:

I think DR 2.0 does a good enough job, the handling and physics feel absolutely natural and believable. 'Hardcore' seems to be a very subjective term. How do you define it? Also, which part is 'simcade' to you and which is realistic? 

I have the impression that if the tyre sidewalls aren't made of strawberry jam and you don't lose your car mid-corner for no reason some people will call it 'too easy'. But that's probably just me ^^ Whenever I watch some onboard video of real rally drivers it reminds me of how pretty darn close DR 2.0 is. Let's not forget that if you want to talk about realism you should also drive as if there were real engineers, mechanics, team owners and sponsors behind your car. If you treat it like a game, yeet your car full throttle over jumps and drive like a lunatic as if there was no tomorrow, you can't complain and shout 'ARCADE'!! The lack of real consequences lets you drive over the limit and sometimes you can get away with things, but very often you don't, DR 2.0 is punishing enough. Sure, it's easy to finish a stage, but it's very difficult to get even a top 50 on a competitive leaderboard. 

I rather think there is no such thing as good enough. DR2 is good (had I thought otherwise I wouldn't be here) but there's room for a lot of improvement. My main issue would be how the cars rotate and pivot. It's a bit like beating on a dead horse at this point, with the center pivot and all that (or center-ish, as I believe the model uses a center based pivot that moves around a bit). This model makes the cars very easy to rotate and slide, whilst controlling the slides is a piece of cake. I also think there's too much grip, especially on older cars (or rather, the progression of grip as the car slides is a bit much - that "mechanic" itself though is very well done). 
Stability over jumps and bumps is another thing. You can pretty much attack a jump at any odd angle and it'll just sail beautifully through the air. Just send it and land on the road and you'll be fine. Bumps and potholes can make the car difficult to control at high speeds, but they never f- you up properly.

In RBR with NGP the cars need more inertia to rotate, you'll have to be more "on point" and it's not quite as grippy. It's more negotiating with an heavy objects, that the car really is. There are jumps that will make you nose dive into the dirt, or send you into a tree - roof first. Bumps and potholes can really throw you off. Here's a video that gives you some idea. You can also search for comparisons to real life, and see that it is indeed very realistic.


Being able to just send the car full throttle in DR2 is another one of it's problems. If not the handling physics then the damage model lets you get away with some serious abuse. You can easily get away with things that would cause serious damage to the car.

The difficulty of placing high on the leaderboards is not a good indication of anything other than lots of people spending lots of time on DR2. I mean, it's hard to get high rankings in Quake. That doesn't mean rocket jumping is realistic. 

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Maybe the leaderboard argument is not the strongest. The reasoning behind it was, if you think there's too much grip and the game generally is too easy because 'simcade', it should be easy for you to be fast on it, but it really takes time to get a clean run, let alone a somewhat decent one, and that's because it's not as easy and forgiving as you claim. Also, the claim that you can attack any jump at pretty much any odd angle and land perfectly, is not true. Damage model is a good point, but I'm not sure if Codies can just do whatever they want. Manufacturers might have a say in that regard. 

I'm surprised you posted a RBR video because if you use words like 'realism' and 'realistic', then the reference should real life, so an onboard video of any rally would be more appropriate. RBR might've been amazing 15 years ago, no doubt. It might also have reached cult status (surely rightly so) and people romanticize a lot and it's all fine, but I can't see why you treat it as THE benchmark. 

Sometimes I have the impression that the 'too much grip' argument comes from the lack of understanding what's really going on in motorsport. The notion, that race cars that are built to absorb bumps and jumps and maximise grip on loose surfaces, should be unstable and struggling in off-road conditions, is quite strange. Also, the goal is to reduce as much weight as possible, you want a light race car, not a heavy one.

Real life racing is a lot more exciting than people think, what's going on in rally is absolutely bonkers. Any engineer that builds a race car that's unstable and can't handle bumps and jumps, puts the driver's life at risk, they'll no longer be in charge of anything. 

I remember those Indycar drivers complaining last year during an iRacing championship. They said that they never felt that instability and lack of grip in an Indycar and that it is just complete BS. The same with GT racing, WEC drivers say you have nurse the cars through the corners, that's not how it is in real life. 

At the end of the day racing games will always be just racing games, they'll always feel different, but with the 'too much grip' argument we're never going to be on the progress side and always one step back in terms of realism. Real life racing is always the reference if you want to talk about realism, not what was going on in a racing game you enjoyed in the past. 

Edited by richie
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10 hours ago, richie said:

Maybe the leaderboard argument is not the strongest. The reasoning behind it was, if you think there's too much grip and the game generally is too easy because 'simcade', it should be easy for you to be fast on it, but it really takes time to get a clean run, let alone a somewhat decent one, and that's because it's not as easy and forgiving as you claim. Also, the claim that you can attack any jump at pretty much any odd angle and land perfectly, is not true. Damage model is a good point, but I'm not sure if Codies can just do whatever they want. Manufacturers might have a say in that regard. [/quote]

Fast is relative. In comparison to the leaderboards it's very difficult to be fast, because there are a lot of people who are really friggin' good at Dirt Rally. If I were to compare to real life I'm a hell of a lot faster in Dirt Rally and I can do things easily in the game that I may never be able to do in a real car (and I have attacked quite a few gravel roads in my time). 

If you search youtube for "rally jumps" you'll find many examples of cars twisting and rotating through the air, in ways that you don't see in DR. 

Quote

I'm surprised you posted a RBR video because if you use words like 'realism' and 'realistic', then the reference should real life, so an onboard video of any rally would be more appropriate. RBR might've been amazing 15 years ago, no doubt. It might also have reached cult status (surely rightly so) and people romanticize a lot and it's all fine, but I can't see why you treat it as THE benchmark. [/quote]

I posted the RBR video because RBR has been referred to, as well as show how realistically the car moves. As I mentioned earlier, it's easy to find comparison videos between RBR and real life. Also, a fun thing to try if you find a good RBR video: Set the resolution really low. You could fool anyone that it's a good old VHS tape of real rally.

RBR today is not the same game it was 15 years ago. No one really talks about vanilla RBR. The game had a good physics model, and then some modders got their hands on it. Chief among them is WorkerBee who has modded the physics based on observations and data from real cars. His Next Gen Physics mod has kept evolving for years. It's a different thing altogether from what it was 15 years ago. You also have hundreds of stages and different surfaces, a ton of cars (not all good, but still), online tournaments and much more.

This is not romanticizing it - RBR is THE benchmark (until something better comes along). 

I suggest trying it. The most popular and currently under most development is the Hungarian version, that you can get from rallysimsfans.hu. I think they have guides for setting things up, but it's fairly straightforward. Start with something like the Ford Fiesta WRC 2019 and an easy but fun stage like Chirdonhead or Harwood Forrest. Give it a few days to get used to it. Assuming you have a wheel of course.

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Sometimes I have the impression that the 'too much grip' argument comes from the lack of understanding what's really going on in motorsport. The notion, that race cars that are built to absorb bumps and jumps and maximise grip on loose surfaces, should be unstable and struggling in off-road conditions, is quite strange. Also, the goal is to reduce as much weight as possible, you want a light race car, not a heavy one.[/quote]

It's not about the cars being unstable but rather the roads being treacherous and difficult. The cars do get unbalanced, unstable and sometimes they struggle. Rally is really tough on the cars and you can't build them to magically absorb everything. 
Modern cars are of course much better than older ones. Markku Alén once said, after testing a modern R5 car, that it was amazing how fast he could go without worrying about breaking the car or being sent into a tree. That's not to say it's a piece of cake and you can just go "YOLO!". He's also said, about the Delta S4, that "sure I could drive it, but many times it was in Gods hands". 

Walter Röhrl, whom Nikki Lauda dubbed "genius behind the wheel", famously refused rally Finland because he hated the jumps. That's not a sentiment you get from playing Dirt Rally.

Ps. As for weight, I'm well aware of the advantages of a light car. That does not change the fact that the cars are heavy objects and you need to get the right inertia to make them rotate the way you want. It's actually one reason for sliding the car on loose surfaces.

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Real life racing is a lot more exciting than people think, what's going on in rally is absolutely bonkers. Any engineer that builds a race car that's unstable and can't handle bumps and jumps, puts the driver's life at risk, they'll no longer be in charge of anything. [/quote]

Yes, rally is absolutely bonkers (which is kind of my point). But again, I'm not talking about building cars that are unstable - I'm talking about cars being unsettled, unbalanced and sometimes struggling. There's a big difference.

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I remember those Indycar drivers complaining last year during an iRacing championship. They said that they never felt that instability and lack of grip in an Indycar and that it is just complete BS. The same with GT racing, WEC drivers say you have nurse the cars through the corners, that's not how it is in real life. 

At the end of the day racing games will always be just racing games, they'll always feel different, but with the 'too much grip' argument we're never going to be on the progress side and always one step back in terms of realism. Real life racing is always the reference if you want to talk about realism, not what was going on in a racing game you enjoyed in the past. 

IRacing has quite a few flaws. The creators may, in very American fashion, tout it as the most realistic sim ever made. That's far from the truth though. It's made so that you have to drive very gingerly because if you drive with any sort of attack, and you overstep the limits just a fraction too much, then you're off straight into a wall. That's why some call it Ice Racing. There even seems to be additional forces exaggerating this behavior. If you have iRacing you can try this: Take a rally cross car and drive maybe 20mph. Pull the handbrake. The car will do almost an 180 degree turn. You may also notice that pulling the handbrake accelerates the rear, launching it sideways. 

That's obviously not how cars behave.

Of course real life is the only true reference. Look, as you can clearly see I also criticize games that have too little grip and are unrealistically punishing. I'm not trying to go into the old debate of "difficult does not equal realistic" - realistic is realistic, and that's that. What's actually holding back progress is that people would like to be flattered and have something that "feels good man!", and so sims would rather lean on "feels good man" than uncompromising realism. It's more important for people to think that it's realistic than it actually being so. Dirt Rally does that really well, which is why it's so popular.

Edited by Gregow
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Talking of Walter Röhrl, there was a controversy back in the 80's when Audi introduced the quattro technology. He was sitting in his Ascona giving a short interview and said that with 4WD even a monkey could win a rally. He was frustrated and felt humiliated because he got beaten by a woman. He fought back and managed to win rallies and championships. Later people accused him of calling Michele Mouton a monkey, but he never said that. What he wanted to say was that the 4WD was a game changer, it was so efficient on gravel that it became a lot easier to drive fast, despite the understeer and the weight. That was almost 40 years ago. Fast forward around 20 years and active diffs got banned from WRC because - to say it your terms - it was too simcade and easy. That was almost 20 years ago, progress certainly didn't stop there. The fact that he didn't like the 1000 lakes rally showed that, despite being one of the best he also was a real douche bag and a diva imho. You'd have a point if that rally got canceled due to the dangerous jumps, but the rest of the field went there to race, and the cars did exactly what they were built for. 

With some practice you'd be able to do the same or similar things IRL. I do not doubt that the latest physics version of RBR are fun, I just can't see what it does better than DR 2.0. It doesn't look and sound particularly good, the handling looks natural but the car doesn't absorb the bumps as you'd expect from a 2019 car. The problem with cults is that they soon become somewhat religious, irrational and immune to facts. 

I think your representation of DR 2.0 isn't accurate and fair. I don't know about you, but I need to restart a lot in Finland, certainly not because jumps never unsettle your car. I once even saved a screenshot where I crashed because my car landed nose first, because people were claiming it never happens. Unfortunately I deleted it.

So, I think a lot of that nonsense and 'chinese whispers' starts in echo chambers. DR is no raw racing simulator with just some grey menus to cycle cars and tracks and that's it. It never was designed to be that and I don't know why Codies shouldn't make nice menus and add some nice music. It certainly isn't perfect and there's always room for improvement, but - again - they also get the data from manufacturers and it is a lot closer to what happens in real rallies than some people are prepared to admit. Words like 'too much grip' and 'simcade' are absolutely subjective and are being weaponized by parts of the sim racing community. 

I've read so much nonsense in Automobilista 2 comments sections that it really hurts and makes me wonder who on earth says that? I hope we can bury the notion that grip is a very rare thing and race cars want to kill you all the time, because it is not like that in real life. Maybe DiRT Rally is so popular because it is THAT good. I mean, that's the reason why you're here as you say. 

 

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22 hours ago, richie said:

I do not doubt that the latest physics version of RBR are fun, I just can't see what it does better than DR 2.0. It doesn't look and sound particularly good, the handling looks natural but the car doesn't absorb the bumps as you'd expect from a 2019 car. The problem with cults is that they soon become somewhat religious, irrational and immune to facts. 

An unbias person would look into all the options presented before themselves. It seems contradictory to indicate people are sheep before you test it yourself. Just go to the link. Download and try it. There is no point or benefit to miss out on the joy of the physics for the sake of being stubborn about it.

The track surface model or what ever its called looks so blocky because the 15 year old engine is limited in that regard or something. IDK!  The objects on the modded tracks have ****** collision physics thats extremely annoying. BUT Other than that its my favorite sim to play right up there with the best.

I have gotten so much better at DR2 after playing RBR NGP. And you will see what people are talking about if you play it.

On 4/7/2021 at 9:55 AM, richie said:

I think DR 2.0 does a good enough job, the handling and physics feel absolutely natural and believable. 'Hardcore' seems to be a very subjective term. How do you define it? Also, which part is 'simcade' to you and which is realistic? 

Realism in simulations are when a simulation doesn't pull its punches or tweak the physics to make it more forgiving. 

Dirt rally 2 pulls its punches while tweaking certain values to make more approachable but ironically these tweaks end up making it more "nervous" to drive even though it does a damn good job with what its working with. You can tell under the hood DR2 has potential to be a real sim.

Like for example:

To control a RWD car in RBR you are forced to time your shifts with the rpm or you will be unstable. NO if ands or buts. But learning how to drive this way is not something many simcades will make you do. In the end this way actually makes RWD more predictable than DR2 believe it or not. Because the foundations of the simulation physics are so damn solid you can predict with plain old driving experience what your car is gona do just like in real life.

I cant do this in DR2 RWD... WELL....

Thats not true...

You can do it in DR2 and the benefits from doing that are there but you just dont need them.

Which is understandable why codies went that route for fear it would weed out a bunch of people but the downside is people dont get the full enjoyment of learn2play. Which what a game like this is about. And the whole point of a simulation? Is it not?

Once you "git-good" you will just about never find yourself in a "point of no return". Dont get me wrong. Dirt rally is still hard as balls bro but the tweaked values to the car physics make it easy to recover. but on the flip side RWD can make drivers overly "nervous" when you're on the limit. I Dont get nervous in RBR NGP with high powered RWD even though it feels like im juggling 2-3 more inputs than DR2 to drive them they're being in a predictable physics engine that which then in turn  makes them super predictable on the limit. 

hmm. what else... AH. The cars slipstream created by its aero dynamics isnt strongly represented in DR2. Its simulated in but its not enough for you to use to your advantage. When I start to gain speed with some of the aero thats on some of these cars I should feel snapped straight by the air pressure. But i never do.

Tires on tarmac is not rubbery-sticky in DR2.

Kinking or bending your suspension under pressure to maintain traction on the limit isnt necessary in DR2 either. In RBR this required to be agile. Again. Its there if you want to but it seems like its been toned down a lot to not be a necessary for car stability. 

Edited by Orangetuner
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I honestly don't know what to reply. I just think, if RBR is your favourite rally game, then you should keep playing it. The question is not what you like but what's realistic, the reference is always real life racing. Progress in engineering and development of materials has been pretty steep for the last 30 years. Even for road legal cars tyres have become so good that the Porsche GT2 RS can do 0-60 (0-100) times of 2.7 seconds without the TCS even intervening a tiny bit, RWD! 

But here we are, on the internet, wondering if stability and grip are actually something Jules Verne wrote about or if they really exist in this world. ^^ 

One thing I hope improves in the next DiRT Rally is tarmac physics and FFB. Something like this would be fine :classic_cool:

 

Edited by richie
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On 4/9/2021 at 5:32 PM, richie said:

Talking of Walter Röhrl, there was a controversy back in the 80's when Audi introduced the quattro technology. He was sitting in his Ascona giving a short interview and said that with 4WD even a monkey could win a rally. He was frustrated and felt humiliated because he got beaten by a woman. He fought back and managed to win rallies and championships. Later people accused him of calling Michele Mouton a monkey, but he never said that. What he wanted to say was that the 4WD was a game changer, it was so efficient on gravel that it became a lot easier to drive fast, despite the understeer and the weight. That was almost 40 years ago. Fast forward around 20 years and active diffs got banned from WRC because - to say it your terms - it was too simcade and easy. That was almost 20 years ago, progress certainly didn't stop there. The fact that he didn't like the 1000 lakes rally showed that, despite being one of the best he also was a real douche bag and a diva imho. You'd have a point if that rally got canceled due to the dangerous jumps, but the rest of the field went there to race, and the cars did exactly what they were built for. [/quote]

Walter Röhrl was answering the question of what could be faster than him, in the Opel, to which he replied "a monkey in a quattro". That was him recognizing how good the Quattro was, which was not to say that it was so easy to drive that anyone could win a rally. 4WD was indeed a game changer, but the Quattro was by no means an easy car - overpowered, turbo lag and prone to understeer, as it were. 
Yes, modern rally cars are much easier to drive. That doesn't mean it's easy to go maximum attack on a bumpy gravel road.

Douchebag and diva for not wanting to go airborne half of the time? Mkay... yeah, either that or jumping the cars is a bigger deal than you'd think after playing DR2.

On 4/9/2021 at 5:32 PM, richie said:

With some practice you'd be able to do the same or similar things IRL. I do not doubt that the latest physics version of RBR are fun, I just can't see what it does better than DR 2.0. It doesn't look and sound particularly good, the handling looks natural but the car doesn't absorb the bumps as you'd expect from a 2019 car. The problem with cults is that they soon become somewhat religious, irrational and immune to facts. [/quote]

Heh, I've driven the doors off of a lot of different machines for ~22 years now. I'm quite aware of my limitations and I don't fool myself into thinking that a bit of practice would enable me to drive like in DR2. Thinking otherwise is an accident waiting to happen. 

You seriously overrate the cars ability to absorb bumps. Here's a guy who's actually compared DR2 to real life. He point out how much more violent and rough real life is. I don't agree with his opinion that DR2 strikes a good balance, but that's just like his opinion, man.

Are you talking about the cult of DR2, by the way?

On 4/9/2021 at 5:32 PM, richie said:

I think your representation of DR 2.0 isn't accurate and fair. I don't know about you, but I need to restart a lot in Finland, certainly not because jumps never unsettle your car. I once even saved a screenshot where I crashed because my car landed nose first, because people were claiming it never happens. Unfortunately I deleted it.[/quote]

Number of restarts isn't a good measure of anything. What I consider unfair is ignoring the flaws of DR2. The cars rotation and handling are based around a center pivot - that's a fact and it's not how things work in real life. It's a model used for cool sliding around. The real violence and roughness of rally is not translated well either. Cars with the same layout all feel very similar, be it a group B car or an R5 or whatever. Damage model is very simplified and forgiving. And so on and so forth. There's a lot that could be improved.

On 4/9/2021 at 5:32 PM, richie said:

So, I think a lot of that nonsense and 'chinese whispers' starts in echo chambers. DR is no raw racing simulator with just some grey menus to cycle cars and tracks and that's it. It never was designed to be that and I don't know why Codies shouldn't make nice menus and add some nice music. It certainly isn't perfect and there's always room for improvement, but - again - they also get the data from manufacturers and it is a lot closer to what happens in real rallies than some people are prepared to admit. Words like 'too much grip' and 'simcade' are absolutely subjective and are being weaponized by parts of the sim racing community. [/quote]

What's menus got to do with anything? You're right it's no raw simulator, that's why some of us call it "simcade". Aside from that I've never voiced any issues with dressing it up in nice menus, so I don't know what you're on about.

What echo chambers are you talking about? Only echo chamber I'm aware of are these forums where DR2 physics are uncritically praised. 

On 4/9/2021 at 5:32 PM, richie said:

I've read so much nonsense in Automobilista 2 comments sections that it really hurts and makes me wonder who on earth says that? I hope we can bury the notion that grip is a very rare thing and race cars want to kill you all the time, because it is not like that in real life. Maybe DiRT Rally is so popular because it is THAT good. I mean, that's the reason why you're here as you say. 

 

I don't know why you're bringing up Automobilista 2. No, most race cars don't want to kill you all the time. However, you do tend to need to be on point when driving them because they're not as forgiving as road cars. Setup is typically towards more neutral handling (slight understeer often preferred), they respond quicker and sharper and you get a narrower band for optimum slip angles (with a fast drop-off). Aerodynamics can make the cars more "on rails". 

Some race cars DO want to kill you though. Like old Porsche 911's. They're all smiley-happy-face whilst hiding an axe behind their backs. I believe that's why ol' Carroll Smith called them "shitboxes". 

So what's the point of bringing up Automobilista 2? But sure, hey... we could compare it to Rfactor 2. An interesting difference is how much more alive the cars feel in Rfactor 2. With a stiff car on a bumpy track, like the Nordschleife, bumps and curbs will push the car around and you can feel how the wheels are bouncing, loosing and regaining grip. That is indeed how real cars work and I haven't found any other sim that replicates it as well as Rfactor 2. Meanwhile, it is a bit forgiving as to how you can slide the cars - you can slide them quite a bit despite having high downforce and slicks. AMS 2 is similar in that regard. ACC seems more accurate but I haven't spent much time on it as it's horrible in VR.

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I mean those echo chambers where outdated dogmas (difficult=realistic; grip is very rare in racing) still persist and where a small minority of 'seasoned' self-proclaimed hardcore sim racers dictate what's realistic/sim/arcade, regardless of depth of simulation. I mentioned Automobilista 2 because it showed the stubbornness of parts of the sim racing community. People don't like to admit they were wrong all the time, it costs a lot of energy to change your mind and group pressure is high. So, instead of recognising that a renowned studio like Reiza chose the Madness Engine because it is not 'arcade' and adjust their view about the engine, they started to stigmatise Reiza for going 'full trackmania'. I don't want to sound rude but that's peak ignorance. I'm fed up with SimWars and the excessive use of words like 'simcade' and 'arcade'. 

Just yesterday during the Fanatec GT World Challenge stream iRacing folks started calling ACC 'Need for Speed Underground' and 'Mario Kart' in the chat. It can't get more stupid than that. It is tiresome and makes no sense. I think any kindergarden is a well of reason and wisdom compared to these people. The underlying problem is always the same mantra: difficult=realistic; grip=arcade etc. Unfortunately, real life evidence isn't on their side, onboard footage shows that, but they don't care. It could be so much better, based on actual facts and technological reality. Maybe one day we'll have some kind of FISR, the FIA equivalent for sim racing, where the most important questions around sim racing can be discussed and some kind of framework can be established. 

Actually, on the forum people are quite critical of DR 2.0. There's threads with huge lists of things they'd like to see improved in the next game. The center pivot argument might be true, Idk, I just keep seeing people mention it but haven't seen some analysis and hard fact tbf. The fact the gravel physics feel so natural shows that it's not detrimental. 

We'll have to agree to disagree, nothing I say will change your mind. It'll always be difficult to code real life physics 1:1 into a game. One of the main problem in every discussion is the misconception of real life racing and not taking it as the reference for their understanding of 'realistic'. The best example is ACC sounds. Onboard sounds IRL aren't quite as spectacular as represented in ACC, and yet Kunos' sounds are considered to be the most realistic, even though in many cases they're not even accurate. The Bentley is completely off, just like the Audi, the McLaren and the Aston V8. Kunos might have the best sounds atm, but 'awesome' isn't 'realistic' either. Realistic is realistic, we can agree on that one. 

 

Edited by richie
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On 4/18/2021 at 4:37 PM, richie said:

Kunos might have the best sounds atm

Of course I was talking about circuit racing. I think it's fair to say that the sound quality and accuracy of the DiRT Rally team are hands-down the best in the racing games industry. 

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- Proper STABLE VR support for ALL handsets including WMR.

- Focus on great performance for VR, as good as in 2D (2D is really good already).

- Analog handbrake support, as it was in DR1.

- Slight improvements in physics/car handling, especially on tarmac.

- Bug fixes, such as smooth arms and wheel movement and proper brightness settings so that an "VR eye accomodation fix" isn't needed.

- Further improved graphics, especially LoD of trees should be improved.

- And great, extra content; more cars and tracks.

That would be it, that is enough to make DR3 a masterpiece.

Edited by GuusHugo
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On 4/7/2021 at 5:58 PM, Gregow said:

I rather think there is no such thing as good enough. DR2 is good (had I thought otherwise I wouldn't be here) but there's room for a lot of improvement. My main issue would be how the cars rotate and pivot. It's a bit like beating on a dead horse at this point, with the center pivot and all that (or center-ish, as I believe the model uses a center based pivot that moves around a bit). This model makes the cars very easy to rotate and slide, whilst controlling the slides is a piece of cake. I also think there's too much grip, especially on older cars (or rather, the progression of grip as the car slides is a bit much - that "mechanic" itself though is very well done). 
Stability over jumps and bumps is another thing. You can pretty much attack a jump at any odd angle and it'll just sail beautifully through the air. Just send it and land on the road and you'll be fine. Bumps and potholes can make the car difficult to control at high speeds, but they never f- you up properly.

In RBR with NGP the cars need more inertia to rotate, you'll have to be more "on point" and it's not quite as grippy. It's more negotiating with an heavy objects, that the car really is. There are jumps that will make you nose dive into the dirt, or send you into a tree - roof first. Bumps and potholes can really throw you off. Here's a video that gives you some idea. You can also search for comparisons to real life, and see that it is indeed very realistic.


Being able to just send the car full throttle in DR2 is another one of it's problems. If not the handling physics then the damage model lets you get away with some serious abuse. You can easily get away with things that would cause serious damage to the car.

The difficulty of placing high on the leaderboards is not a good indication of anything other than lots of people spending lots of time on DR2. I mean, it's hard to get high rankings in Quake. That doesn't mean rocket jumping is realistic. 

Those pacenotes didn't seem accurate at all but the co-driver seems cool. Haven't run into that mod.

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On 5/1/2021 at 7:54 PM, Bullpupguy said:

Those pacenotes didn't seem accurate at all but the co-driver seems cool. Haven't run into that mod.

Pacenotes can be edited and you can install different voices for the co-driver.

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2 hours ago, Gregow said:

Pacenotes can be edited and you can install different voices for the co-driver.

It's a pain to edit the pacenotes even with the extra navigator tool provided in RBR pro.

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On 3/23/2021 at 1:34 AM, Yellowbentine said:

 On a side note, I would love to see these stages added: Ouninpohja for Finland, El chocolate for Mexico, El condor for Argentina, Saint Auban and Col Du Turni for monaco, bring in some famous WRC stages Codemasters!


 

I would want to add that the Finland Stages ARE in fact Ouninpohja. If you were to drive them in one go it would be identical to the long Ouninpohja stage. The same is true for El Condor and the Argentina stages.

However I would like to see:

"Stein & Wein" and "Römerstraße" or even "Grafschaft" for Rally Germany

You can look these stages up here https://www.rallyekarte.de/Rallye-Deutschland-2019
 

For Finland I would want to see the "Ruuhimäki" stage.

They could add "Torsby" for Sweden and "Wedding Bells" for Australia.
 

Edited by JohnReese1999
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  • 3 weeks later...

I generally agree with OP's suggestions here, but I do want to talk about this point:

On 3/23/2021 at 12:34 AM, Yellowbentine said:

I also think Dirt Rally 1 and 2 felt “cartoony” and not true to real life, maybe make Dirt Rally 3.0 look more realistic by changing the colour tones and lighting effects, I’m not an artist so I don’t know…

This is where I disagree.

DR1 generally tries to 'fake' realism by being washed out, making the weather look overcast a lot of the time even when it's supposed to be bright and sunny. The real world isn't washed out, it's actually pretty brightly coloured a lot of the time! Also note: GoPro footage is not representative of what the world actually looks like.

DR2 gets the saturation right, and the PBR and dynamic range stuff is more realistic to how human eyes see the world (except for occasional instances of incorrect exposure), so it generally looks pretty realistic. However, the problem with DR2 is that it's a bit too idealistic: the daytimes are all have perfect fluffy clouds, the evenings all have glorious sunsets, the rain is always torrential. There needs to be more 'ordinary' weather: mostly-cloudy or overcast days and evenings (and mornings), some light rain and drizzle, and so forth. It might not look as good in marketing materials, but it'll feel better to play in a variety of conditions. Honestly, Dirt 4 actually did this pretty well, even having moving cloud shadows!

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7 hours ago, caerphoto said:

I generally agree with OP's suggestions here, but I do want to talk about this point:

This is where I disagree.

DR1 generally tries to 'fake' realism by being washed out, making the weather look overcast a lot of the time even when it's supposed to be bright and sunny. The real world isn't washed out, it's actually pretty brightly coloured a lot of the time! Also note: GoPro footage is not representative of what the world actually looks like.

DR2 gets the saturation right, and the PBR and dynamic range stuff is more realistic to how human eyes see the world (except for occasional instances of incorrect exposure), so it generally looks pretty realistic. However, the problem with DR2 is that it's a bit too idealistic: the daytimes are all have perfect fluffy clouds, the evenings all have glorious sunsets, the rain is always torrential. There needs to be more 'ordinary' weather: mostly-cloudy or overcast days and evenings (and mornings), some light rain and drizzle, and so forth. It might not look as good in marketing materials, but it'll feel better to play in a variety of conditions. Honestly, Dirt 4 actually did this pretty well, even having moving cloud shadows!

Yeah, I agree, more or less. That's why I always mention Driveclub, Forza Horizon series and Gran Turismo Sport as examples of racing games that are graphically realistic. They are pretty colorful and at the same time look a lot like the real world, whereas DR2 is also colorful but a bit cartoony (with some exceptions in certain locations and weather, such as Greece/Overcast). To be honest I have no idea how they achieve that, probably the artists at Codemasters know better than me.

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Interesting thread 🙂 

I need to have a more detailed read through, but one thing that stood out in the original post was the addition of 8-10 new locations, plus adding twice as many Stages to existing DiRT Rally 2.0 locations.

Without trying to sound mean here, how long would you wait for such a thing? That sounds like 5+ years of development right there as I presume newer hardware means more dense assets, which means more dev time needed.

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You need to be able to retire to the next checkpoint at any time. You need tires that don't burst by being looked at. So there should be a damage modifier from 0%-100%. Also you can't start a night stage without lights. This isn't realistic. The should have had pikes peak added to DR2. It's inexcusable. I won't be buying DR3 based on my experiences with DR1 (Unplayable) and DR2 until they actually finish the game and it comes way down in price. They just don't deliver any content frequently enough for the price and the game play is just annoying. The cars never feel anything like real driving. There is no connection between the simulation of a game and real driving. I can drive real cars really well but Dirt Rally 2.0 never feels like real driving. The screen is too slow all the time so you never feel like you're going fast until the  brakes have no effect and you hit a curb all the time. The game just isn't realistic in any way shape or form. They need to completely redesign the entire game to make it more fun like real driving. The free roam section is laughable. Also there has to be a track editor or importer from other games. I hate how the bonnet reappears after you've managed to smash it off too. The rally cross **** needs to be cut out or a track showing the car added. You can never see where the track goes. I don't buy a game to be shitted off by it. There needs to be a physics editor to mess about with in single player. The game just isn't fun. I want to mess with everything and just stuff about for hours of amusement.

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