Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Braking and low RPM power

Recommended Posts

I know this has been brought up before but I don't remember ever hearing from the devs their take on these issues.  I'm pretty happy with how the cars drive/feel so far but I've been trying to get all the upgrades for the Peugot 205 (rally version not hillclimb) and the more I drive it the flaws of the physics of all cars come very apparent.

- Engine braking has since launch and still is FAR too strong, it can't be that hard to tweak a parameter so it's not so excessive right?
 
- Super brakes, I can go 120mph up to a hairpin on tarmac in the 205 and brake the last 50 feet it feels like and it just stops right away.  All the cars have excessively powerful brakes IMO.

- Low RPM power, this car is 400+ HP.  Until you are past 5k RPM it is an absolute dog.  Does not feel like a fire breathing monster like it should.  It's hard to get the wheels spinning even on gravel, and unless you jam the throttle while holding the e-brake to keep the revs high on tarmac good luck keeping the wheels spinning in a hairpin.  All the cars have these issues, some more than others (like the Quattro with engine braking) but driving the Peugot on tarmac really shows how the cars just feel 'weak'.  These are monsters, especially Group B, and until you are way up near the redline they drive like a stock Honda Civic.

Anyways, just looking to see if these are being worked on.  The WRX cars are definitely a step in the right direction, they actually feel like a 600hp beast and have no problem getting the wheels spinning when you want to.  I know @kick_up said they are bringing that new layer of physics to all the rally cars so maybe that will be the answer.  Hope we see the update soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For the engine braking, you might be right (althought knowing that most race cars don't have much of a flywheel, engine braking will be still very strong

Super brake ? Dude, we are talking about a racing car with racing tires, not a daily driver. If you don't believe me, Watch that : 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV1hPTcuq74

Finally, for the low RPM Power : For turbo cars, you have something called boost threshold rpm, which is the minimum engine RPM required for the turbo to be able to spin fast enough to produce boost pressure in the manifold. If you are under that threshold (which is about 4500-5000 RPM on the Sierra, best example I can find), you will nearly have no power, because under that RPM, there is not enough exhaust flow pushing on the turbine, which mean it cannot make the compressor spin fast enough to create enough pressure in the intake manifold. And to make it worse, it act as a restriction in both the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold until the threshold is met. And that's even with the anti-lag (the anti-lag do NOT negate the threshold, it only make the turbo spool up faster when you are in a RPM high enough

Most of the 80s turbo car had a high threshold (especially the Group B car), because they were fitted with very big turbo (relative to the engine displacement and size) and were tuned for high end power, unlike the Group A from the 90s and WRC cars, which were tuned to produce power from Idle to redline (which produced a nearly flat torque and power curve)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That video is an "Oh f***, gotta save the car" moment. That isn't how he'd normally brake on the stage, he had little to no control and I would guess he was tugging on the handbrake for dear life. If anything, it backs up the claim that braking distances in game are a bit too generous, as you could stop at that distance without coming close to locking the brakes up (looks about what, 30-40ft or so?) and while maintaining control. Only the devs know for sure if it's the brakes alone that need to be tweaked or a combination of things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think the brakes are as strong as some people make out? I've overshot plenty of corners due to late braking, the brakes on the WRC cars are exceptionally good, I don't think people actually understand just how good competition brakes really are. They're incredible, even on gravel. 

As for the turbo boost in the Group B cars then that'll be down to turbo lag. Anti-lag hadn't been invented back in the 80s and Lancias solution to the turbo lag was to put a supercharger on the car to combat this. You need to adapt your driving style in the group b cars to try and counter for this lag. 

And the engine braking too, the only car I find it exceptionally noticeable on is the Audi Quattro, you don't even need to actually press the brake. You just lift off, the other cars I haven't even noticed it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for the turbo boost in the Group B cars then that'll be down to turbo lag. Anti-lag hadn't been invented back in the 80s and Lancias solution to the turbo lag was to put a supercharger on the car to combat this. You need to adapt your driving style in the group b cars to try and counter for this lag. 

Nan, that's not lag, that's the boost threshold as I explained earlier

Basically, since competitions car in that time where tuned for the highest power possible, it mean high bosst...and to get that high boost, bigger turbines, in return it also meant higher boost threshold. Which meant that to have boost, you had to keep the goodamn engine in the upper region of the tachometer,

Too low RPM ? not enough exhaust going through the turbo to make it spin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
driving it on the edge you get what the peugeot 205 t16 is about.

many don't or wont push it enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All said before:

- Braking is very accurate to the real thing.
- Engine braking is too strong in some cars... (but I start to have my doubts in this cause of the real torque / drivetrain companion)
- Low RPM power IS NORMAL; as RookieOne exaplained. With 3 bar OLD turbo, it needs a very high rate of revs to spin enough to help the engine. You cannot fight this unless you have voluimetric compressor (supercharger, not turbocharger) wich is direcly "attached" to the crankshaft.
 Just like this engine works... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqMySTgUPGo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RookieOne said:
Super brake ? Dude, we are talking about a racing car with racing tires, not a daily driver. If you don't believe me, Watch that : 

Finally, for the low RPM Power : For turbo cars, you have something called boost threshold rpm, which is the minimum engine RPM required for the turbo to be able to spin fast enough to produce boost pressure in the manifold. If you are under that threshold (which is about 4500-5000 RPM on the Sierra, best example I can find), you will nearly have no power, because under that RPM, there is not enough exhaust flow pushing on the turbine, which mean it cannot make the compressor spin fast enough to create enough pressure in the intake manifold. And to make it worse, it act as a restriction in both the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold until the threshold is met. And that's even with the anti-lag (the anti-lag do NOT negate the threshold, it only make the turbo spool up faster when you are in a RPM high enough

Most of the 80s turbo car had a high threshold (especially the Group B car), because they were fitted with very big turbo (relative to the engine displacement and size) and were tuned for high end power,
This is the sole problem I have with these arguments. As the engine work as it does on the Gr.B cars, it is correct - as it was that way back in the 80's.
Then the argument regarding brakes are "racing car with racing tires". But it's still the 80's, so, it shouldn't be compared to todays WRC cars.

How can both be right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The excessive engine braking/drivetrain friction is a problem the devs are aware of and it will be tweaked but probably not until the end of EA.

When talking about brakes, try increasing the brake pressure. It's usually set to 50% by default. It's much more easy to lock up after this. My only complaint about the brakes are that the cars feel a bit stable slowing down from high speed. They sure could squirm a bit more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bogani said:
The excessive engine braking/drivetrain friction is a problem the devs are aware of and it will be tweaked but probably not until the end of EA.

When talking about brakes, try increasing the brake pressure. It's usually set to 50% by default. It's much more easy to lock up after this. My only complaint about the brakes are that the cars feel a bit stable slowing down from high speed. They sure could squirm a bit more.
Yeah, brakes can work mbetter at higher pressure levels, but lock up them and even stall the engine ease.

At this point, brakes operate "weird" even with ABS set to "5" the highest possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Myrvold said:
RookieOne said:
Super brake ? Dude, we are talking about a racing car with racing tires, not a daily driver. If you don't believe me, Watch that : 

Finally, for the low RPM Power : For turbo cars, you have something called boost threshold rpm, which is the minimum engine RPM required for the turbo to be able to spin fast enough to produce boost pressure in the manifold. If you are under that threshold (which is about 4500-5000 RPM on the Sierra, best example I can find), you will nearly have no power, because under that RPM, there is not enough exhaust flow pushing on the turbine, which mean it cannot make the compressor spin fast enough to create enough pressure in the intake manifold. And to make it worse, it act as a restriction in both the intake manifold and the exhaust manifold until the threshold is met. And that's even with the anti-lag (the anti-lag do NOT negate the threshold, it only make the turbo spool up faster when you are in a RPM high enough

Most of the 80s turbo car had a high threshold (especially the Group B car), because they were fitted with very big turbo (relative to the engine displacement and size) and were tuned for high end power,
This is the sole problem I have with these arguments. As the engine work as it does on the Gr.B cars, it is correct - as it was that way back in the 80's.
Then the argument regarding brakes are "racing car with racing tires". But it's still the 80's, so, it shouldn't be compared to todays WRC cars.

How can both be right?
There is basically just one set of tyres, rather than period accurate ones for each category.
So yeah, the likes of the Group B cars have excessively modern tyres and the benefits that brings. That's especially true with wet tyres.
I wouldn't say they have excessively powerful brakes though. Noticeably inferior to the 2010 ones. 
But I think everyone would agree that the Audi Quattro's engine braking is completely broken. Even without touching the brakes, it'll decelerate from 100mph to 20mph in about 6/7 seconds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×