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Fuel Mix change removed on F1 2021 during race?


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8 hours ago, Krisperfectline said:

I think strat modes are different to engine modes, which I think we are not seeing things in black and white. Otherwise, teams would be receiving penalties every race. I think the ban on engine modes requires more technical details to the fans. I don’t think it is that simple. 

Then just don't change the current system.  If it's not accurate, or giving "unfair" advantages then change the negative impacts of running low or high mode to be more penalizing.   I think we all know that when we run in high fuel mode not only are you burning more fuel, but you're running the engine at hotter temps.  I do believe that running more on high also increases wear on the engine components, but to me it's not significant enough.  Therefore, increase the temps and wear when running on high for too long. Increase the change of player "failures" for running on high too long.    Same with low.  Slow the car down even more if you're running on lean than you already do.  Yes it's nice to see the engine temps cool, and I assume reduce wear on the components too, but make the speed differential slower.

We all know there's different power modes available to teams on the grid IRL, so we should have a similar system represented in the game somehow.  I dont see a problem with the current system other than its not penalizing enough.  Increase the negative effects of running both lean and high should solve any issues with abuse or it not being as "real".   Then you can't run 5 or 6 consecutive laps on high with no real negative effect.

Doing something to modify it so it's more accurate is better than simply removing it.  in a perfect world it would be great if we could map it all on our own, especially ERS based on running practice programs etc rather than it just happening automatically. I'd agree the engine mode system isn't perfect right now, but i think there's ways to fix it aside from just removing it.

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43 minutes ago, petro1319 said:

We all know there's different power modes available to teams on the grid IRL

I'm not convinced we do actually. It's a complex subject but personally I think it's very unclear what, if anything, drivers can currently adjust over the course of a lap beyond ERS.

Edited by Ultra3142
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Actually I was kind of wondering why we were still able to qualify on max mix in F1 2020 because F1 clearly banned that during the season and it actually can affect your traction in qualifying so I found it annoying.

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On 6/7/2021 at 7:35 PM, petro1319 said:

I don't like the change if that's the case.   I was OK with the ERS change last year because it responds more to how things really work.  I don't like the idea of removing the fuel mix settings though.  We know the engineers on the pit wall and drivers can change settings to increase engine power and technically therefore fuel usage as well.  I mean, we see/hear the calls all race long from the teams telling the drivers to adjust settings, or from the driver's requesting for more power when chasing down the leader.   So because they can't find a way for it to work logically in the game we're just going to remove it?  Not a fan of that decision at all.

The ICE part of an engine can not be changed during qualifying or race. Only the ERS side of the engine can. So I don't think there can be any discussion about the fact that fuel flow is locked during the race.

ERS is something different though. The ERS is mapped for the whole track, so Strat 2 might mean more ERS power used per lap, but it doesn't mean more power on every corner. Maybe only more power on the straights and high speed corners, but that's down to the mapping that's done by every team for every strat.

On F1 2019 the ERS system was different. You'd have low, neutral, high, overtake and hotlap. The Low ERS setting would mean that for as long as that you've selected that setting, the power will be down on every single part of the track.

When you select the High setting, a lot of energy will go to waste in slow corners, as the system doesn't see any difference in straights or slow corners. In real life, they do see the difference and map the engine so that you'll only use power where it'll be beneficial and only charge the battery on slow parts of the track, not on the main straight. That's way they only change the Strat every couple laps, not every couple turns. It makes it more tactical as you can save battery for 5/6 laps before you try an aggressive overtake by deploying more power for 2/3 laps. You have to plan ahead.

To counter this shortcoming of the F1 2019 system players made their own mapping. But they had to do this mapping real time, not before the race like they do in real life. So you'd change the setting to overtake when on a straight, go down to low in the braking and traction zone to go back up to high in a middle speed corner. This means that you'd change the setting anywhere from 0 to 40 times or more per lap, depending on your skill level. Real F1 drivers do a lot during a race, but they don't change their Strat setting every 2 or 3 corners.

The current ERS Overtake button gives us a more simplified way to use ERS, but it still isn't the most realistic way. If you'd be able to map the ERS for every circuit, it'd be much better. But I don't see that happening, as it's to tedious to do for most players.

So as far as realism goes, F1 2021 does a better job at it than F1 2019 because you don't have to change ERS settings every corner and it's also better than F1 2020 as you can no longer change fuel usage, which is banned in real life. Is it perfect? No. Is it an improvement? Absolutely.

Edited by Falstojudilofa
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Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2021 at 6:35 PM, petro1319 said:

I don't like the change if that's the case.   I was OK with the ERS change last year because it responds more to how things really work.  I don't like the idea of removing the fuel mix settings though.  We know the engineers on the pit wall and drivers can change settings to increase engine power and technically therefore fuel usage as well.  I mean, we see/hear the calls all race long from the teams telling the drivers to adjust settings, or from the driver's requesting for more power when chasing down the leader.   So because they can't find a way for it to work logically in the game we're just going to remove it?  Not a fan of that decision at all.

I agree.

If they are taking away the option to change fuel mix at will, the fact that fuel mix is still in the menu (but greyed out), might mean in 2021 we have the option to change the mode if an issue occurs and we are then advised by Jeff to do so - it’s possible and could/ should be a precursor to proper STRAT modes.

On 6/8/2021 at 6:01 AM, Krisperfectline said:

I think strat modes are different to engine modes, which I think we are not seeing things in black and white. 

On the wider discussion about STRAT modes that has various impacts on ers deployment, engine modes, fuel etc - it would be great if we could have them in the game in some simplistic way and having a few modes (depending on simplified version of the variables), for example;

Mode 1: normal engine, normal ERS

Mode 2: reduced engine, normal ERS

Mode 3. normal engine, reduced ERS

Mode 4: reduced engine and ERS

And only having the option to change them when instructed i.e. we have a engine problem, Jeff says “change to STRAT 2”, menu allow us to make the change.

If we don’t change it in good time, then the problem worsens, the parts are damaged quicker, eventually leading to a breakdown in due time.

That should be possible surely and perhaps they’ll figure out a way for this in a future patch?

Fully take on the point about ERS being deployed at certain levels in a pre-set way for certain corners/straights - that would be fairly complex to achieve.

Edited by Monzie83
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23 hours ago, petro1319 said:

Then just don't change the current system.  If it's not accurate, or giving "unfair" advantages then change the negative impacts of running low or high mode to be more penalizing.   I think we all know that when we run in high fuel mode not only are you burning more fuel, but you're running the engine at hotter temps.  I do believe that running more on high also increases wear on the engine components, but to me it's not significant enough.  Therefore, increase the temps and wear when running on high for too long. Increase the change of player "failures" for running on high too long.    Same with low.  Slow the car down even more if you're running on lean than you already do.  Yes it's nice to see the engine temps cool, and I assume reduce wear on the components too, but make the speed differential slower.

We all know there's different power modes available to teams on the grid IRL, so we should have a similar system represented in the game somehow.  I dont see a problem with the current system other than its not penalizing enough.  Increase the negative effects of running both lean and high should solve any issues with abuse or it not being as "real".   Then you can't run 5 or 6 consecutive laps on high with no real negative effect.

Doing something to modify it so it's more accurate is better than simply removing it.  in a perfect world it would be great if we could map it all on our own, especially ERS based on running practice programs etc rather than it just happening automatically. I'd agree the engine mode system isn't perfect right now, but i think there's ways to fix it aside from just removing it.

They already increased the range of overheating temperature in the power unit in F1 2021. I think based on youtubers, engine is considered to be hot at around 100 degress already, and you will need to cool the car down. I don’t think you can anymore do Rasmussen’s strategy, if you follow f1 esports, and stay behind someone for the entire race. Either way, I am fine as long as we are getting closer to realistic settings. 

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1 hour ago, Monzie83 said:

If they are taking away the option to change fuel mix at will, the fact that fuel mix is still in the menu (but greyed out), might mean in 2021 we have the option to change the mode if an issue occurs

It will be possible to switch to Lean when the safety car is out.

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1 hour ago, Krisperfectline said:

They already increased the range of overheating temperature in the power unit in F1 2021. I think based on youtubers, engine is considered to be hot at around 100 degress already, and you will need to cool the car down. I don’t think you can anymore do Rasmussen’s strategy, if you follow f1 esports, and stay behind someone for the entire race. Either way, I am fine as long as we are getting closer to realistic settings. 

So they take one of thing that is killing real f1 that the real drivers say ruins the racing, the ability not to follow, and they put it into the game great.

So it makes it boring and frustrating to race as you will spend most of your time trying to manage and cool down (even though people complained about the tediousness of micro managing ers so now we get micro managing heat and while also trying to manage the new easier to lose traction tires) and drivers in front will just aggressively block knowing you will lose power due to overheating and break off

Edited by TomAAA
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Just to add some options to this discussion here is a (fairly basic) description of the Mercedes wheel lifted from Formula1.com website earlier today when discussing 'brake magic' button (on the reverse side of wheel somewhere near the paddles) - note Strat Mode Rotary (13)  and HPP Rotary (15) both adjustable during the race.

 

Mercedes Wheel.jpg

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On 6/9/2021 at 4:01 PM, TomAAA said:

So they take one of thing that is killing real f1 that the real drivers say ruins the racing, the ability not to follow, and they put it into the game great.

So it makes it boring and frustrating to race as you will spend most of your time trying to manage and cool down (even though people complained about the tediousness of micro managing ers so now we get micro managing heat and while also trying to manage the new easier to lose traction tires) and drivers in front will just aggressively block knowing you will lose power due to overheating and break off

I think you see the things way too bad. Wait and try, before you pronounce bad racing. For me, it is great to see that, CM try to make temperatures of the F1 car more important. And Overtake is getting more and more tactical. You have to think more about an overtake, where it should happen, waiting for an mistake from the opponent, think about dirty air effect, saving some ERS and then full power in the right moment. It is way more realistic, than driving almost in the back of the opponent and just pass without any challange. 

And by the way, you still can have easy overtakes and easy races. You just have to use the difficulty sliders and change it the way it fits best to your driving skill. 

I think these changes are great. With more difficult and tactical overtakes an overtake is more special, more thrilling, more tactical. Example Perez in Monaco. He was driving in a safe zone behind Vettel (i guess?), saving tires, saving energy, avoiding dirty air and high temperatures, until the pit window opened. Then he went fast, made full power, closed the gap making an undercut or overcut possible. Thats great tactial racing! 

With those changes Qualifying positions and race starts become more importent. If you want to avoid the challenge of overtakes, you have to qualify better. Bad qualifyings don't results in easy catching up the field. With luck and great races, you can be happy about good points maybe. But sometimes it is part of racing, that you are not able to overtake every car, even when you might be a little bit faster. Maybe you could have tried, but you have think about the possibilty of damge or dnf and so one. 

I like the way Codemasters develops the game. It is going directly in the right direction.

 

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Perhaps it would have been easier to stop the exploit of changing (rich lean rich) fuel mixtures in esports and online races by cutting down the changes to once per lap or even once per two laps of a race. For example once changed it would be darkened out and blocked once changed every lap or two laps.

Anyways the new fuel system they brought in is interesting all the same.  

Edited by Chromatic
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On 6/10/2021 at 5:09 AM, HamishOK said:

Just to add some options to this discussion here is a (fairly basic) description of the Mercedes wheel lifted from Formula1.com website earlier today when discussing 'brake magic' button (on the reverse side of wheel somewhere near the paddles) - note Strat Mode Rotary (13)  and HPP Rotary (15) both adjustable during the race.

 

Mercedes Wheel.jpg

Yea, I think it is not in black and white regarding the rule of engine mode ban. Otherwise, teams would be penalized in every race. 

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On 6/13/2021 at 10:43 PM, Krisperfectline said:

Yea, I think it is not in black and white regarding the rule of engine mode ban. Otherwise, teams would be penalized in every race. 

It is black and white. Mercedes and the other teams were running more aggressive Qualy modes, Mercedes called it Party mode/strat2. Mercedes was able to run higher RPMs/revs while limiting the harvesting of the battery during the hotlap, then they tune down the engine for the race for reliability. FIA couldn't tell who was doing what so they banned it(with obvious help from Redbull and Ferrari).

Now, If the Mercedes is suddenly running 500 more RPMs in a sector halfway in a race, the FIA can see it and ask question why.

Teams can run whatever setting they want in practice, so teams like Ferrari and Alpine are running higher engine modes to make themselves look better than they are in practice, and Mercedes and Redbull can run lower modes, (or likely just more fuel) to sandbag before Quali. Most of those "strat modes" on the wheel are for ERS energy deployment during SC, pit, in/out laps. Its something every team does automatically in certain situations. So its pointless to include it in the game. 

I don't mean you personally, but reading these comments makes me wonder how much F1 you guys watch IRL. "Party mode" was a pretty extensive topic around Spa I think and Martin Brundle and those guys explained it pretty well. 

Also, ERS is already mapped for each track. Do a hotlap at Azerbaijan and watch how slowly you lose ERS on those straights compared to like Spain or Netherlands. Adding some type of powermap to the game is moot IMO.  Every team is already mapping ERS and power the same to their abilties.  Save some overtake button on the DRS straight, Deploy less ERS on tracks with less braking points etc. 

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9 hours ago, ChicagoSeminole said:

It is black and white. Mercedes and the other teams were running more aggressive Qualy modes, Mercedes called it Party mode/strat2. Mercedes was able to run higher RPMs/revs while limiting the harvesting of the battery during the hotlap, then they tune down the engine for the race for reliability. FIA couldn't tell who was doing what so they banned it(with obvious help from Redbull and Ferrari).

Now, If the Mercedes is suddenly running 500 more RPMs in a sector halfway in a race, the FIA can see it and ask question why.

Teams can run whatever setting they want in practice, so teams like Ferrari and Alpine are running higher engine modes to make themselves look better than they are in practice, and Mercedes and Redbull can run lower modes, (or likely just more fuel) to sandbag before Quali. Most of those "strat modes" on the wheel are for ERS energy deployment during SC, pit, in/out laps. Its something every team does automatically in certain situations. So its pointless to include it in the game. 

I don't mean you personally, but reading these comments makes me wonder how much F1 you guys watch IRL. "Party mode" was a pretty extensive topic around Spa I think and Martin Brundle and those guys explained it pretty well. 

Also, ERS is already mapped for each track. Do a hotlap at Azerbaijan and watch how slowly you lose ERS on those straights compared to like Spain or Netherlands. Adding some type of powermap to the game is moot IMO.  Every team is already mapping ERS and power the same to their abilties.  Save some overtake button on the DRS straight, Deploy less ERS on tracks with less braking points etc. 

I think the main issue is that drivers are allowed to change strat modes during the race, which we think are the engine mode settings, but in fact the ERS settings. In addition to that, I think we may understimate the effect of the ERS on the cars, or we probably not noticing it, as it is not that « visible » to our eyes or ears. I still think there is more explanation needed to note the difference because I feel like the engine mode is controlled by the team in the pitwall, whilst the ERS modes which are the strat buttons on the steering wheel, are controlled by the driver. As you said, if strat modes are ERS deployment modes, then including 13 of them in the game is an awful tough task for codemasters, but if all of this is correct, and they could try to include those, then that would be fantastic for us. 
 

By the way, the more downforce you run in f1 2020, the faster your ERS drains and the harder it is to harvest, which is why Netherlands and Spain typically « eat » a lot of ERS. This is the reason why low downforce setups are preferable, provided that you can extract the lap time and keep your tyres in decent shape. 

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41 minutes ago, Krisperfectline said:

By the way, the more downforce you run in f1 2020, the faster your ERS drains and the harder it is to harvest, which is why Netherlands and Spain typically « eat » a lot of ERS. This is the reason why low downforce setups are preferable, provided that you can extract the lap time and keep your tyres in decent shape. 

Is there a real physical reason for a relationship between ERS use/harvesting and ERS in this way? You've got me thinking... The best I've come up with so far is that lower top speeds would lead would probably lead to less energy harvested when braking for the the next corner, I think.

 

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35 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

Is there a real physical reason for a relationship between ERS use/harvesting and ERS in this way? You've got me thinking... The best I've come up with so far is that lower top speeds would lead would probably lead to less energy harvested when braking for the the next corner, I think.

 

I have no idea really. I only got that from TRL Limitless, especially when he did the TSRL league race in Japan when he made a crazy one stop work from lap 6 or 8 I think. He said that one click of wing adjustment could affect 3-5% ers I think or even more, but it is not higher than 10%. We all could test it though. Just go into a Grand Prix mode,  set the ai to low levels, and do drive around different setups to see how much ERS usage you get. 
 

In F1 2018, it was brake pressure that you could adjust in order to affect your ERS harvesting. In 2019, I am not sure of it because I did not play f1 2019 as much as I play f1 2020. I do wonder if there is indeed a relationship in real f1 with this or in the game as well.

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11 hours ago, Krisperfectline said:

I think the main issue is that drivers are allowed to change strat modes during the race, which we think are the engine mode settings, but in fact the ERS settings. In addition to that, I think we may understimate the effect of the ERS on the cars, or we probably not noticing it, as it is not that « visible » to our eyes or ears. I still think there is more explanation needed to note the difference because I feel like the engine mode is controlled by the team in the pitwall, whilst the ERS modes which are the strat buttons on the steering wheel, are controlled by the driver. As you said, if strat modes are ERS deployment modes, then including 13 of them in the game is an awful tough task for codemasters, but if all of this is correct, and they could try to include those, then that would be fantastic for us. 
 

By the way, the more downforce you run in f1 2020, the faster your ERS drains and the harder it is to harvest, which is why Netherlands and Spain typically « eat » a lot of ERS. This is the reason why low downforce setups are preferable, provided that you can extract the lap time and keep your tyres in decent shape. 

 

11 hours ago, Krisperfectline said:

I think the main issue is that drivers are allowed to change strat modes during the race, which we think are the engine mode settings, but in fact the ERS settings. In addition to that, I think we may understimate the effect of the ERS on the cars, or we probably not noticing it, as it is not that « visible » to our eyes or ears. I still think there is more explanation needed to note the difference because I feel like the engine mode is controlled by the team in the pitwall, whilst the ERS modes which are the strat buttons on the steering wheel, are controlled by the driver. As you said, if strat modes are ERS deployment modes, then including 13 of them in the game is an awful tough task for codemasters, but if all of this is correct, and they could try to include those, then that would be fantastic for us. 
 

By the way, the more downforce you run in f1 2020, the faster your ERS drains and the harder it is to harvest, which is why Netherlands and Spain typically « eat » a lot of ERS. This is the reason why low downforce setups are preferable, provided that you can extract the lap time and keep your tyres in decent shape. 

Thats interesting about ERS and downforce, But ive noticed the same at Belgium where I usually run the same downforce as Azerbiajian (3-5ish), but its hardly a scientific observation lol. My point is if you ran the ERS on the straights at Azerbaijan the same as Belgium, you would run out of ERS, so the ERS is obviously mapped to the track to an extent. 

Also, Probably 90% of the people that play this game only play "equal" cars online, or a career on 50 AI. (while complaining how predictable the AI is lol) So adding a ERS "powermap" feature which makes a few seconds difference in 100% race seems redundant, considering there are like 500 different things fans are demanding to change or fix.

As someone that played around with 100% diff at Spain or Bahrain, Im more excited about brake bias and differential being adjustable instead of leaving them at 50% for the entire race. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

They can't alter the power mode once qualifying starts, I.e. rev limits, ignition timing etc on the ICE. They can only alter it for in and out laps in qualifying, formation lap and safety car periods, or if there's there's issue with the engine which can be proven to the FIA.

Quite why people are complaining about something being removed that no longer exists in real F1 is quite beyond my comprehension. 

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