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3 hours ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

You're not fundamentally wrong.  There are issues with accountability once companies have monopolised a market as they tend to get lax with some things. I do think Codemasters are making concerted efforts to continue improving (such as adding new game modes, more customisation) but I agree that sometimes the playerbase can be quite divided on which avenue to focus on.

In an ideal world, i'd personally would want loads of playable tracks. I'd want about 30-40ish in the game. The 23 that are actually in the plan for the season then places like Hockenheim, Turkey, Nurburgring, Malaysia, etc. That way I can mix up different seasons and stop it getting stagnant by doing the same ones over and over. If they had done that instead of the Braking Point then i'd have been content as it covers more what i'd play but I won't throw my toys out the pram because they did something that isn't in-line with my hopes for the series. as they're making a game for millions of people worldwide, not just a few people like me. Therefore I don't see them as sacrificing things the fans of the series want as they are generally fans of the sport as well as fans of the game series. 

I'm generally impartial to the customisation on the podium pass. It's there, it's nice to earn things but generally i'll choose 2-3 style alternatives and then ignore the rest. However, the more options there are, the wider range of people it could cater to. I don't see any reason why they'd deviate from that one year after introducing it so I expect it will be the same as last year, with the same or very similar items. 

 

Would I have liked Spain and Australia to be updated? Sure. Am I going to say that my experience this year will be ruined as it doesn't look like it does in real life?  Probably not.  If it's still the same next year, then maybe. Although they'd be designing Miami next year so we shall see what else changes trackwise. 

I hear you on that.  I've been saying for years that there is nothing worse than when they take out tracks because they aren't on the schedule.  All the ones you've mentioned come to mind.  I know there are licensing issues there, but those facilities all appear in many racing games.    We've got classic cars and classic drivers in the game now; it's time for the classic tracks.  Especially those that have already appeared in the game in previous years.  I also would love to be able to insert them into custom schedules in the various career modes, but i'd also be happy if they were just available for Grand Prix & Time trial; career modes though would be best.  It comes down to exactly what you said; the game gets stagnant running the same 22-23 tracks over and over and over again through the span of a 10 year career mode.   I usually tap out around season 7.   Having a driver career, and my team mode going keeps me playing, but after a while it does just feel like you're going through the motions.  So more variety would really be great to have; even with drivers which is why I'm frustrated the game again is launching with 2020 F2 drivers, and the F2 2021 update will probably be later in November or so again and those new drivers won't make it into My Team mode and you're just stuck using 2020 drivers to hire when your career has advanced to 2025 for example.  I think we've drifted a bit off topic here now; but it's good discussion that I hope gets some visibility so they can see what people REALLY want the development hours spend on.

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If anyone is interested, I have shared my views on the Barcelona Turn 10 situation in another thread, from a developer point of view.

My timeline only accounts for modelling and texture changes, it does not include AI, camera angles, etc. -- but it may give some of you a better idea of what would go into updating a track, even if it's just one corner
 

That being said, my post is not intended to make excuses for the missing track updates, in fact I share the disappointment that Barcelona is not getting the new Turn 10, in my opinion it would have been totally doable. There does seem to be a bit of a resource problem at Codemasters when it comes to building (and maintaining) tracks. I just hope that with the EA merger EA can spare some resources in the future to help with track building/updating. As much as I want to say the non-updated Barcelona track is excusable because they are including 3 new tracks, it really isn't. It's also far from the only tack that is outdated in the game and it does seem like they don't care all that much to address these things which, again, is disappointing. I hope that Lee Mather reads all these threads and realizes that updated tracks is a high priority item on the fan wishlist for the series.

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11 hours ago, CptBalloonhands said:

If anyone is interested, I have shared my views on the Barcelona Turn 10 situation in another thread, from a developer point of view.

My timeline only accounts for modelling and texture changes, it does not include AI, camera angles, etc. -- but it may give some of you a better idea of what would go into updating a track, even if it's just one corner
 

That being said, my post is not intended to make excuses for the missing track updates, in fact I share the disappointment that Barcelona is not getting the new Turn 10, in my opinion it would have been totally doable. There does seem to be a bit of a resource problem at Codemasters when it comes to building (and maintaining) tracks. I just hope that with the EA merger EA can spare some resources in the future to help with track building/updating. As much as I want to say the non-updated Barcelona track is excusable because they are including 3 new tracks, it really isn't. It's also far from the only tack that is outdated in the game and it does seem like they don't care all that much to address these things which, again, is disappointing. I hope that Lee Mather reads all these threads and realizes that updated tracks is a high priority item on the fan wishlist for the series.

It's pretty hard to argue with that and the post on remodelling turn 10 is highly informative. 

However, my main question for you would be;

Say they announced F1 2021 was coming out and there was no real gameplay developments. A few things here and there like collision damage, R&D tree and the like. However, there was no new Braking Point mode and most other introductions hadn't come neither so it was basically like last years game. However, every track was updated to be correct.  Is that enough to tempt you to buy the game?   It's a genuine question as it'd probably take alot of their resource to go through every track and make sure they're all correct and if (when it is time for the new game to be released), people look at it and think "that's basically last years game" and they don't buy it, wouldn't the be seen as a massive faux pas?

It's probably a moot point as they'll have more resource next year to do the tracks anyway but curious to whether perfecting all of the tracks actually appeals to the gamerbase more than gameplay improvements and new experiences.  

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21 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

It's pretty hard to argue with that and the post on remodelling turn 10 is highly informative. 

However, my main question for you would be;

Say they announced F1 2021 was coming out and there was no real gameplay developments. A few things here and there like collision damage, R&D tree and the like. However, there was no new Braking Point mode and most other introductions hadn't come neither so it was basically like last years game. However, every track was updated to be correct.  Is that enough to tempt you to buy the game?   It's a genuine question as it'd probably take alot of their resource to go through every track and make sure they're all correct and if (when it is time for the new game to be released), people look at it and think "that's basically last years game" and they don't buy it, wouldn't the be seen as a massive faux pas?

It's probably a moot point as they'll have more resource next year to do the tracks anyway but curious to whether perfecting all of the tracks actually appeals to the gamerbase more than gameplay improvements and new experiences.  

If it was an all out remodelling and updating of the tracks they could do it as a new feature if they wanted, I'd buy into that. 

Honestly, away from correcting turns and specific issues, a lot of them just need a refresh. Interlagos hasn't been touched in years, it's bland and too brightly coloured and doesn't carry the imposing geography of it's real life pit climb and straight, even if it's matched correctly, it's not done artistically in a way that sells it. .Always feels like a let down and the track surface itself lacks the detailing of newer tracks. 

Suzuka is missing ad hoardings and has for years, Going up into the esses there's a bunch of blank boards, will we ever see these filled? Has anyone opened the Suzuka file since 2017?

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1 hour ago, KNT2011 said:

Suzuka is missing ad hoardings and has for years, Going up into the esses there's a bunch of blank boards, will we ever see these filled? Has anyone opened the Suzuka file since 2017?

If an ad board is blank it's usually for a reason, licensing 🙂 

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4 minutes ago, PJTierney said:

If an ad board is blank it's usually for a reason, licensing 🙂 

They pay CM, yes? Genuine question. Because when I've watched the Virtual GPs or F1 E-Sports the ads around the track are changed are they not?

Codemasters should be using the ad boards like they are IRL (I'm sure FOM/Liberty would have a cut)?

I can see some brands being restricted due to PEGI3.

And I demand a cutscene at a driver press conference of a driver chucking a soft drink out of shot 😉

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2 minutes ago, steviejay69 said:

They pay CM, yes? Genuine question. Because when I've watched the Virtual GPs or F1 E-Sports the ads around the track are changed are they not?

Codemasters should be using the ad boards like they are IRL (I'm sure FOM/Liberty would have a cut)?

I can see some brands being restricted due to PEGI3.

And I demand a cutscene at a driver press conference of a driver chucking a soft drink out of shot 😉

It is very strange. You have blank spaces meant for advertising, yet 'licensing' means no one gets it, not even the companies who are already in the game, and it's not even covered with F1 2020 or whatever. 

I appreciate licensing is complicated in all areas but with F1 it just seems counter productive almost at every turn. It's so limited and restricted, this actual ad space that companies would surely want.. barely anyone wins. 

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Just now, KNT2011 said:

It is very strange. You have blank spaces meant for advertising, yet 'licensing' means no one gets it, not even the companies who are already in the game, and it's not even covered with F1 2020 or whatever. 

I appreciate licensing is complicated in all areas but with F1 it just seems counter productive almost at every turn. It's so limited and restricted, this actual ad space that companies would surely want.. barely anyone wins. 

If there is a cost to the brand (and I see no reason why not, because it's free advertising if not) then they would have to sign off on the logo or provide it. That would be a licence. The fact the payment might not go in the direction you assume is no reason for it not to be a licensing issue.

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2 minutes ago, steviejay69 said:

The fact the payment might not go in the direction you assume is no reason for it not to be a licensing issue.

You've read it as an argument there, it really wasn't. Just frustration as an outsider as it ends up taking away some immersion from the player in the end, small an issue as it may be. 

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1 minute ago, KNT2011 said:

You've read it as an argument there, it really wasn't. Just frustration as an outsider as it ends up taking away some immersion from the player in the end, small an issue as it may be. 

No, not an argument, I understand your frustration it's to try to give an explanation of sorts (even though I'm not party to the agreement). It might well be a zero fee contract, wherein they sign off on the logo and CM can use it for authenticity / "the I-word" (immersion 😉 )

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2 minutes ago, FTBuzzard said:

Is it the same logic why we don't have goodyear sponsors on the tyres of the classic cars, but on the Benetton 195 there is clearly a goodyear sponsor? (on the side box)

Benetton might have licensed the livery with incorporated sponsors (it would have been licenced similarly) as they owned the team in 1995 but that intellectual property may have passed to Renault (via Lotus GP) when they assumed the ownership of the team. Codemasters might then not decide to realise (or omit some) in full, to comply with PEGI3, etc.

If Goodyear did not licence the brand to appear on the tyre representation (because it is their brand association), then that might explain the difference.

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I don't know the specifics, but every time you see a real-world logo in a game, that logo and its placement had to be signed off by at least one other party; that could be the brand itself, the track, the team, the driver's agency, F1, whoever.

It gets even more complicated when a brand is owned by multiple entities, or when it's an older one that went out of business a long time ago.

 

For example:

Quote

One of my favourite car liveries in the game is Roger Clark’s Ford Escort MkII. Getting the ‘Cossack’ logo signed required a lot of detective work and actually took almost a year to get fully signed! I knew the livery wouldn’t look right without it – so I persisted and that persistence paid off.

 

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9 hours ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

It's pretty hard to argue with that and the post on remodelling turn 10 is highly informative. 

However, my main question for you would be;

Say they announced F1 2021 was coming out and there was no real gameplay developments. A few things here and there like collision damage, R&D tree and the like. However, there was no new Braking Point mode and most other introductions hadn't come neither so it was basically like last years game. However, every track was updated to be correct.  Is that enough to tempt you to buy the game?   It's a genuine question as it'd probably take alot of their resource to go through every track and make sure they're all correct and if (when it is time for the new game to be released), people look at it and think "that's basically last years game" and they don't buy it, wouldn't the be seen as a massive faux pas?

It's probably a moot point as they'll have more resource next year to do the tracks anyway but curious to whether perfecting all of the tracks actually appeals to the gamerbase more than gameplay improvements and new experiences.  

Personally? Yes I'd buy that. I don't really care too much about Braking Point or fictional stories in a racing game. The handling in F1 2020 was fine in my opinion. So if for example F1 2022 was all about bringing in more tracks or updating all the tracks and focus less on gameplay development....hell yeah I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

More realistically though, you need to understand that the people working on building or updating tracks most likely are not the same people that work on building new game modes. Bringing in new Game modes like Braking Point would mostly involve Programmers, Game Designers, Narrative Designers, UI Artists, Animators... that kind of thing. Tracks are built by 3D Artists not Programmers. Programmers may define some parameters that are used for the tracks (like the practice gates... somebody has to program those in the first place before an Artist can use them)....But if the overall pipeline for tracks remained unchanged there should be virtually no involvement of Programming teams in any of the track work. So like even within the art department.... I'd actually be surprised if the artists working on the tracks also worked on the cars. That's probably an entirely separate team as well. Same goes for Programming. You'll have Programmers that only work on UI and that never touch car physics. Some Programmers ONLY work on Gameplay related things but don't work on any of the interfaces etc. Granted, I've never worked on a racing title professionally, but a lot of these things translate from genre to genre.

So what I mean by all that is, you can have both....new game modes AND new/updated tracks without one taking resources from the other, because they are separate departments within the development team.

Edited by CptBalloonhands
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12 minutes ago, CptBalloonhands said:

Personally? Yes I'd buy that. I don't really care too much about Braking Point or fictional stories in a racing game. The handling in F1 2020 was fine in my opinion. So if for example F1 2022 was all about bringing in more tracks or updating all the tracks and focus less on gameplay development....hell yeah I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

More realistically though, you need to understand that the people working on building or updating tracks most likely are not the same people that work on building new game modes. Bringing in new Game modes like Braking Point would mostly involve Programmers, Game Designers, Narrative Designers, UI Artists, Animators... that kind of thing. Tracks are built by 3D Artists not Programmers. Programmers may define some parameters that are used for the tracks (like the practice gates... somebody has to program those in the first place before an Artist can use them)....But if the overall pipeline for tracks remained unchanged there should be virtually no involvement of Programming teams in any of the track work. So like even within the art department.... I'd actually be surprised if the artists working on the tracks also worked on the cars. That's probably an entirely separate team as well. Same goes for Programming. You'll have Programmers that only work on UI and that never touch car physics. Some Programmers ONLY work on Gameplay related things but don't work on any of the interfaces etc. Granted, I've never worked on a racing title professionally, but a lot of these things translate from genre to genre.

So what I mean by all that is, you can have both....new game modes AND new/updated tracks without one taking resources from the other, because they are separate departments within the development team.

You’re completely correct about all of that but I asked the question poorly, so I apologise for that. 
I am fully aware it requires different skillsets for the different tasks but that’s if you’re looking at it from a timescale point of view, but I meant in terms of financial resources. 
You’d only hire the extra people whose expertise you require so they’d not hire the same group of people. 
For example; 

You have £1m budget for staff. (Hypothetical figure) 

Option A - 500k on Story programmer team.  500k on 3D track team. 
Option B - 1m on 3D track team. 
 

if you’re focusing on the tracks then you wouldn’t need to hire any extra story programme team members so that financial resource could be diverted into hiring more track modelling experts. 
So you’d sacrifice the additional story modes and have a better chance of doing track improvements. 
 

I believe you’ve answered the question anyway of preferring tracks to game modes which is perfectly understandable. It seems to be a 60/40 split on preferring tracks to stories so far so it’s something for CM to heavily consider going forward. 
I apologise for not framing the question adequately in the first place! 

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14 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

It seems to be a 60/40 split on preferring tracks to stories so far so

Where? I'd be surprised if a larger majority of those who post regularly here wouldn't be more interested in track improvements. I definitely would.

I suspect the story mode development is more focused on enticing new players myself.

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17 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

Where? I'd be surprised if a larger majority of those who post regularly here wouldn't be more interested in track improvements. I definitely would.

I suspect the story mode development is more focused on enticing new players myself.

On the grand scheme of things, the forum probably only represent less than 1% of the whole population of the game.

I bet 90%+ of the players are unaware of the stuff we talked about like updating race tracks and other stuff in the forum as enthusiasts, so that alone is probably not as good as a selling point than having something "dramatic" like Breaking Point in the eyes of general public. 

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6 minutes ago, DRTApophis said:

On the grand scheme of things, the forum probably only represent less than 1% of the whole population of the game.

I bet 90%+ of the players are unaware of the stuff we talked about like updating race tracks and other stuff in the forum as enthusiasts, so that alone is probably not as good as a selling point than having something "dramatic" like Breaking Point in the eyes of general public. 

Yes, absolutely. It was only the possible suggestion that so many here might prioritise a story mode that I was querying.

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1 hour ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

You’re completely correct about all of that but I asked the question poorly, so I apologise for that. 
I am fully aware it requires different skillsets for the different tasks but that’s if you’re looking at it from a timescale point of view, but I meant in terms of financial resources. 
You’d only hire the extra people whose expertise you require so they’d not hire the same group of people. 
For example; 

You have £1m budget for staff. (Hypothetical figure) 

Option A - 500k on Story programmer team.  500k on 3D track team. 
Option B - 1m on 3D track team. 
 

if you’re focusing on the tracks then you wouldn’t need to hire any extra story programme team members so that financial resource could be diverted into hiring more track modelling experts. 
So you’d sacrifice the additional story modes and have a better chance of doing track improvements. 
 

I believe you’ve answered the question anyway of preferring tracks to game modes which is perfectly understandable. It seems to be a 60/40 split on preferring tracks to stories so far so it’s something for CM to heavily consider going forward. 
I apologise for not framing the question adequately in the first place! 

Good point, and I think most people commenting on this topic (myself included) have not taken budget into account.

One thing to note is that Artists are a generally A LOT cheaper than Programmers, so you could get for example 10 artists for the same price of 6 programmers (just an example). Every project starts with a budget. It's up to the Producers/Execs/Game Directors to figure out how that budget gets utilized on the project. My guess is they start with a set of priorities for each annual release and their budget so far has only allowed for that portion of the Art budget to be spent on adding new tracks that are added to the calendar. I guess my point was that I wish more budget would be spent on the race tracks rather than other things, but that is just my own personal bias 😆.

I keep saying this but I do think this is where the new partnership with EA could come in handy, in terms of supplying some additional staff to help with tracks or other stuff that seems to have been sort of low priority for Codemasters in the past. It could even mean an increased budget for the games moving forward, which would also help the situation. Or, you know... laser scanning. I still think the character faces look super goofy, so doing something like FIFA where they bring in the drivers and have their faces and bodies scanned is now on the table with a big name like EA behind it, hopefully the same can be done for tracks. 🙂 In the end CM will spend their money wherever they think it is most needed. Now having access to EA's new analytical tools will give them a lot more insight. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the franchise in the next few years.

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12 hours ago, CptBalloonhands said:

 I still think the character faces look super goofy, so doing something like FIFA where they bring in the drivers and have their faces and bodies scanned is now on the table with a big name like EA behind it, hopefully the same can be done for tracks. 

Exclusive: How Codemasters worked to make F1 2019 as realistic as possible | GPToday.net

So they already scan the drivers and get LIDAR data. As has been pointed out though, the process of building the track isn't just about the physical dimensions and geography.

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13 hours ago, DRTApophis said:

On the grand scheme of things, the forum probably only represent less than 1% of the whole population of the game.

It would be useful for everyone who posts here to reflect on this from to time, self included. Most people are just playing and enjoying the game. 

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6 hours ago, steviejay69 said:

Exclusive: How Codemasters worked to make F1 2019 as realistic as possible | GPToday.net

So they already scan the drivers and get LIDAR data. As has been pointed out though, the process of building the track isn't just about the physical dimensions and geography.

I know he’s directly saying it there but man… I find it a bit hard to believe looking at some of the drivers.

As for tracks, I think there are SOME tracks where they did use scans (Zandvoort, Paul Ricard to name a couple) but clearly not on others (Spa is a good example…wth is that bus stop chicane?)

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I have a question about the Deluxe Edition pre-order that can be done from within F1 2020 @BarryBL @PJTierney

Is there a specific date by which you have to pre-order it to get the discount? Regular price on the PS Store is £74.99 but if pre-ordered using the link on the F1 2020 main screen it drops to £67.49 (IIRC).

Will be pre-ordering when I get paid at the end of the month but don’t want to miss the window for the lesser price (if there is one).

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