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[IMPROVEMENT] Snow & gravel roadside banks (and other objects)

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Hi all,
I cant believe theres not a poll for this yet! (at least I didnt found a thing)

1) ROADSIDE BANKS:
Each and everyone who played DR have or will experience the "evil" roadside banks. What are those made? concrete? ... adamantium?!

Seriously, we are talking about gravel & snow piled up, not solid rock. Yes, it may be pretty compacted and hard.. but a Rally car has around 800-1200kg of weight in motion (+ inertia force). 
In a real condition, normally the car impacts and create a BIG SPLASH of gravel/snow.
Depending in the posture of how you impact (front, rear, side) and the speed, the car just pass through, get stuck, or just almost nothing happens: in example, if you graze the bank with the rear it surely just creates wave of dust + a very small controlable jump/counter.

Actually, touching a bank at high speed is 100% death guaranteed. IRL and DR. Thats clear.

And what about if you touch, even slightly,an inner bank with the front at low/medium speed? It 90% of times results in an unrecoverable spin. It feels so weird... is like front of the car stick on the bank.

In most cases there car may keep going on, maybe you rip off a bumper, a fender, do some damage to a wheel or suspension... but it should keep going due to its momentum.
Actually always results in a huge weird jump + ungovernable car.

This brings you a high level of difficulty, wich is cool, but it forces you to never stay out of the center of the road. And theres no margin or mercy with this.
No doubt about it, if you touch a bank you´re in trouble... but not always; it depends.

2) BUSHES, SMALL TREES:
Another supernatural objects in DR are bushes. They can stop a car from 200 to 0 instantly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVnAbf3B5Mo
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajkf8Y_yUU8

Hell yes, Germany and Greece have lots of these "creatures".
Again, the weight of the car + momentum should RAM or PLUCK the bush/tree with barely effect.

3: ROADSIDE SMALL FLAGS, SMALL POLES, etc:
Other type of object are cones and those colored small flags (sorry dont know the name for them) a sides of the track. If you hit one of them and it (unluckly) get stuck on the front... its like pushing a cow! It brakes the car so bad.
This ones:


It is all I wanted to say about this. Hope you agree with me.

Regards
(excuse my english, Hope its clear enough to understand.... its difficult to state this kind of thing in a foreingh language)

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Had someone bring this up on Steam forums. Some other guy says we shouldn't nitpick, lmao. But yes, definitely should be addressed, I can only imagine what a nightmare Sweden will be if it stays the same. Here's a post I made a while back about the issue with examples from Rally GB 2013/2014:
http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/97794/#Comment_97794

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I´d like to take this videos as example of what I´m trying to explain (big thanks @function9 )
For comparison:
https://youtu.be/VXIM4mTJrMU?t=3m58s
https://youtu.be/VXIM4mTJrMU?t=5m22s
Hirvonen 2013:
https://youtu.be/SSBmXEE-UJM?t=6m2s 
Hirvonen 2014 Sweet Lamb:
https://youtu.be/ZylQJvS4bbc?t=1m32s (120+ kph)
https://youtu.be/ZylQJvS4bbc?t=2m31s (130+ kph)

That is the real behavior of a car touching banks!

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OzoreXS said:
Hi all,
I cant believe theres not a poll for this yet! (at least I didnt found a thing)

1) ROADSIDE BANKS:
Each and everyone who played DR have or will experience the "evil" roadside banks. What are those made? concrete? ... adamantium?!

Seriously, we are talking about gravel & snow piled up, not solid rock. Yes, it may be pretty compacted and hard.. but a Rally car has around 800-1200kg of weight in motion (+ inertia force). 
In a real condition, normally the car impacts and create a BIG SPLASH of gravel/snow.
Depending in the posture of how you impact (front, rear, side) and the speed, the car just pass through, get stuck, or just almost nothing happens: in example, if you graze the bank with the rear it surely just creates wave of dust + a very small controlable jump/counter.

Actually, touching a bank at high speed is 100% death guaranteed. IRL and DR. Thats clear.

And what about if you touch, even slightly,an inner bank with the front at low/medium speed? It 90% of times results in an unrecoverable spin. It feels so weird... is like front of the car stick on the bank.

In most cases there car may keep going on, maybe you rip off a bumper, a fender, do some damage to a wheel or suspension... but it should keep going due to its momentum.
Actually always results in a huge weird jump + ungovernable car.

This brings you a high level of difficulty, wich is cool, but it forces you to never stay out of the center of the road. And theres no margin or mercy with this.
No doubt about it, if you touch a bank you´re in trouble... but not always; it depends.

2) BUSHES, SMALL TREES:
Another supernatural objects in DR are bushes. They can stop a car from 200 to 0 instantly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVnAbf3B5Mo
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajkf8Y_yUU8

Hell yes, Germany and Greece have lots of these "creatures".
Again, the weight of the car + momentum should RAM or PLUCK the bush/tree with barely effect.

3: ROADSIDE SMALL FLAGS, SMALL POLES, etc:
Other type of object are cones and those colored small flags (sorry dont know the name for them) a sides of the track. If you hit one of them and it (unluckly) get stuck on the front... its like pushing a cow! It brakes the car so bad.
This ones:


It is all I wanted to say about this. Hope you agree with me.

Regards
(excuse my english, Hope its clear enough to understand.... its difficult to state this kind of thing in a foreingh language)
I totally agree! I just made a 360 forward flip on a bank. Totally unrealistic.
You get stuck to easily on those banks too. And the bushes and sticks.. OMG. Why? 
Also got 15 second penalty for hitting a fence of wood. O-O

Cheers :)

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OzoreXS said:
I´d like to take this videos as example of what I´m trying to explain (big thanks @function9 )
For comparison:
https://youtu.be/VXIM4mTJrMU?t=3m58s
https://youtu.be/VXIM4mTJrMU?t=5m22s
Hirvonen 2013:
https://youtu.be/SSBmXEE-UJM?t=6m2s 
Hirvonen 2014 Sweet Lamb:
https://youtu.be/ZylQJvS4bbc?t=1m32s (120+ kph)
https://youtu.be/ZylQJvS4bbc?t=2m31s (130+ kph)

That is the real behavior of a car touching banks!
Great examples! Here is a few examples from DIRT Rally.
2kg sign throwing 1040kg car in the air: 


10cm plant putting a 1200kg Ford to a dead stop: 

https://youtu.be/ig0z2cD2b2o

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This is what I meant on another thread about indestructible roadside objects. Some of them are just completely unrealistic and should be destructible and have less of an effect.

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I can honestly say that with very few exceptions (the mounds by the side of the road in Wales), I have no problems with the way any of this is done. If I go off far enough to hit a bush, the last thing I've thinking is "that was too solid", I'm thinking "damn, no chance now".

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I can honestly say that with very few exceptions (the mounds by the side of the road in Wales), I have no problems with the way any of this is done. If I go off far enough to hit a bush, the last thing I've thinking is "that was too solid", I'm thinking "damn, no chance now".
Heheheeh, yeah, agreed. If you are out of track far enough to touch a bush you are fucked up. But not 100% of times! Maybe you are cutting a sharp turn... or maybe just lost some stability on straight that puts you out of the track for a moment but you can correct it and get back on track easely; but here the problem can appear: if you encounter one of this bushses the car just stops/spins to instantly when it should be rammed with consequences.

About the mounds (mounds is better said than banks?) I keep thinking the same. In some cases needs to be softer than actuals. Specially snow, it should slow the car a bit and create a snow splash (just like passing trough water) unless, obviously, it has a hard object/surface inside the mound.

Re-watching the videos posted a few post above, it shows cristal clear what I mean with gravel mounds. How it absorbs some force and not "repels" the car like the mound where concrete made.

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I think you need to realize this is an anti-cheat mechanism they are implementing.  If you notice in some places the bushes etc don't hinder you much, in others (inside of a turn) they are pillars of steal.  This is so cheaters don't cut corners and gain an advantage in leaderboards, etc.  

As much as I like the idea of all kinds of stuff hitting and not stoping your car, this is a necessary evil.  DR is not an open world game either, so there are a lot of small things that needed to be implemented to curb this.  

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Thanks for you comment.
I´ll not change my mind on this. No doubt, I´d prefer "natural" objects than anticheater objects. And what about the mounds?

Maybe a good solution for cutting is giving some penalty; i.e. depending in how long the cut is, the car could stay without engine power for a few seconds (just after the cut):
- Cutting a hairpin, 4 wheels of the track: 10 seconds
- cutting a "2" turn: 5 seconds
- Cutting a huge section (see Wales where it coul be easy): 20 secs or even DQ.

Something like that

back on topic,
I dont spect and dont want an open world game, but I want my 5-6 meters of track (width) plenty of real details and behaviors.

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OzoreXS said:
Thanks for you comment.
I´ll not change my mind on this. No doubt, I´d prefer "natural" objects than anticheater objects. And what about the mounds?

Maybe a good solution for cutting is giving some penalty; i.e. depending in how long the cut is, the car could stay without engine power for a few seconds (just after the cut):
- Cutting a hairpin, 4 wheels of the track: 10 seconds
- cutting a "2" turn: 5 seconds
- Cutting a huge section (see Wales where it coul be easy): 20 secs or even DQ.

Something like that

back on topic,
I dont spect and dont want an open world game, but I want my 5-6 meters of track (width) plenty of real details and behaviors.
By the way I have been to many rally races in Russia and in Greece and no one was not punished for small incisions. because in a place where there is no road impassable terrain. there is any car or stuck or suspension broke. so that the cheat is simply useless, if there is realism.

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=b6yMxq7x17E

https://youtu.be/uOr-Qkb_t2Y

https://youtu.be/LhIEXf9tDQY

Lets terminate this stuff; yeah, its funny but its just bad..

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OzoreXS said:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b6yMxq7x17E

https://youtu.be/uOr-Qkb_t2Y

https://youtu.be/LhIEXf9tDQY

Lets terminate this stuff; yeah, its funny but its just bad..
Video in the middle is good. But other.. Yes, not realistic.

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After thinking about it, this might be why I don't play the game that much. If they want to make an anti cheat system, they could place boulders rather than tiny shrubs to stop people. They could also simply have a second timer that counts up the longer you're off track, and add that to your final time. This is the simplest solution, and the one most racing games use. The bushes would then be able to be run over with less of an issue. The smaller shrubs obviously should not be car flipping monsters, but the larger bushes should reduce your speed somewhat, and incur a little bit of damage. The roadside banks, however are a much more complicated problem. The only solution I can really think of is allow them to be deformable, or actually make them a volumetric physics object. Since making it volumetric is a bit too strenuous, it would have to be a deformable soft body physics object, either relegated to just the banks, or the entire track and map surface. It would have to be something like Spin Tires system, but to a lesser extent. It would add in tire tracks, and could potentially add in more physics, since the ground plane would literally be building up against the tire. They would have to make the physics work with it based on velocity, weight, and direction, and each location would require different values. Greece for instance, being mostly dry packed dirt, would have very little deformation, whereas wales being mostly mud and gravel would have higher levels of deformation. This would also need to be altered based on weather, where rain obviously makes it more muddy, and therefore more deformable, whereas dry midday it would be dryer and less deformable.

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So, unless Codies comes up with some really genius solution, or perhaps rather ingenious solution, they would have to make at least part of the map, the banks, deformable, which is possible but would take time to implement correctly.

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The other option of course is to separate the banks from the ground plane and make them their own object, which would also allow for deformation, and might in fact be the best solution, since deformation requires a lot of topology to look right, and I don't know how dense the mesh is currently, but adding geometry to only the banks would be better than adding millions to the entire driving surface.

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Cant they make snow and gravel banks soft like the snow was in previous rally games?  

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Maybe they will have a fix when sweden rolls around? I cant see rally sweden without the dreaded snowbanks
Well, what I cant see is a snow rally with the actual mounds or banks. I know, as @JZStudios said, snow and gravel is difficult to simulate. In fact, almost impossible to recreate 100% them.

Wet gravel is different from dry gravel. Mud with gravel is different than separated gravel or mud. And theres much more combinations to recreate roadsides and inner surfaces.

I dont spect Codies simulating surfaces 100% real. but maybe with some physics adjustments and something between this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYiKkmXDK6k

and this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEnjbmUbdUE

or even this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0SoYTCtr4g


A combination of visuals and some parameters to remove the actual "concrete effect" would be really nice.

But for now, we just can talk about it and wait...

I dont know what they have in mind (if theres actually some plan to change it) but any changes will be welcome and will improve somehow.

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Thanks codies!!!! THANKS! THANKS!!!!
:)

V 0.8 comes with much inner work than it looks or announced.
Pretty happy to see the roadside mounds have been reworked. Now the feeling, the reaction when you touch or run over them is much more natural.

Just did a run on ar Greece but its a whole new experience. Now mounds are more permissive (not forgiving).

The early access experience on Dirt Rally is being a complete pleasure. Top job. Keep the good work CM!!

EDIT: Obviously, nothing changed with banks... just wasmy perception and de V2 cars.

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Ok, after a few runs in Severn Valley I dont feel the same like at Greece, its like always. Touch the mound = dead.

I dont know... maybe Im just loosing my mind.

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