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Wheelspin

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In real life, if you stand on the accelerator off the line, you risk spinning your wheels and not moving forward at all (ie. a burnout). Unless you back off the accelerator, your tyres aren't suddenly going to feel sorry for you and lend you some grip. I'm just talking about moving from stationary, which is a fairly fundamental bit of physics, which only gets more complicated when you have a dynamic situation like when cornering. But the "burnout test" is usually a good way of telling when grip levels aren't simulated properly.

I've been rolling backwards after an overcooked hairpin on COBBLESTONES (I think it may have even been a bit wet) and slamming it into 1st gear at full revs in my F2 Kit Car, I was immediately propelled forward like in a slingshot. Note, I don't have any driving assists turned on. I know that some of these rally monsters have unprecedented levels of grip (no ordinary road cars), but I'm pretty sure even the Group B RWD don't seem to have too much trouble scrambling for grip. I have very little gravel driving experience in real life, so I can't really comment on the gravel handling, but I believe that the grip levels on tarmac need some work. At least in Germany, the grip levels should differ a lot more between tarmac, concrete and cobblestones.

Having said all this, maybe it's better this way. We're not all rally drivers yet we all want to be able to drive like one, so maybe Codies have actually found a sweet spot here. After all, it would probably take a lot of the fun out of it if we're driving these 12km stages always stressing about spinning out. What do you guys think?

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I am no expert on either game physics or dirt racing, but I have crewed for a couple dirt oval cars and spent countless hours on a dirt bike. I notice the effect that you are talking about more on tarmac. When launching in gravel the tire usually has to 'chew' down through the chunky stuff on top and then launches a bit better as you hit the substrate material, assuming your start line has some cushion built up. It is the opposite effect of a dirt track when traffic has polished the main racing line - if you wander up into the outside cushion of a sweeping turn you toss gravel and lose a lot of grip unless it is piled deep enough to 'plowslide' into as a physical barrier.

So gravel feels reasonable to me. On the other hand on tarmac the cars seem to lose wheelspin and manufacture grip out of thin air more than I would expect with 600 hp under the hood. Perhaps the 4 wide tires and killer suspension do that in real life. I wouldn't know, but it feels fishy to me. I would like to hear the opinion of a real driver on this specific facet of the game. (Not that it is a big deal or bothers me overly much.)

I guess that it feels passable and I am not sure how the RX cars feel in real life, but yeah, I feel ya and I'm not sure what to make of it either.

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My comment on the: "So, lets tal about (rx) physic.."
"I've done some driving in world rx cars last saturday and I would say that they have too much wheelspin, you do a handbrake turn, you let the throttle and the car is drastically slowing down. BTW: It made me laught and I turned off this game and gone to assetto corsa, I would recommend this to anyone!:D First they call it simulation and then relasse this?! Back to the topic: Car should go sideway or if the angle of sideway would be too big, car should went of but not SLOW DOWN!!
For example let you see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzYhVtYLvow can you do full throtle donuts in D:R ?? No..  ?
"Handbrake in real is much smoother and progressive. Not insta-snap like in game." it isn't smooth because it works 0-1.
I'm little disappointed with this game, I know it's still early acces but physic and ffb is sh.... not good at all, it is good game for gamepad, but not for wheel."

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Matt Bell is a professional circuit racer and has made a similar comment regarding grip magically being found on tarmac even if you keep the throttle fully open. Here's the link: http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/comment/114419#Comment_114419

I don't think I've ever played a racing sim where I can do a burnout, even in Project CARS, which touts itself as the next big thing, I just cannot do a stationary burnout on the starting grid. Although the sudden slip mid-corner in pCARS feels pretty authentic to me.

However, as I've said, I like that I'm able to feel competitive in Dirt Rally. Maybe they have found a fairly sweet spot, or maybe it just needs a little tweak.

I agree with your comments on gravel. It's understandable that even when stationary, the grip level changes under your tyres as they dig through the loose stuff and then bed into the earth.

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In real life, if you stand on the accelerator off the line, you risk spinning your wheels and not moving forward at all (ie. a burnout). Unless you back off the accelerator, your tyres aren't suddenly going to feel sorry for you and lend you some grip. I'm just talking about moving from stationary, which is a fairly fundamental bit of physics, which only gets more complicated when you have a dynamic situation like when cornering. But the "burnout test" is usually a good way of telling when grip levels aren't simulated properly.

I've been rolling backwards after an overcooked hairpin on COBBLESTONES (I think it may have even been a bit wet) and slamming it into 1st gear at full revs in my F2 Kit Car, I was immediately propelled forward like in a slingshot. Note, I don't have any driving assists turned on. I know that some of these rally monsters have unprecedented levels of grip (no ordinary road cars), but I'm pretty sure even the Group B RWD don't seem to have too much trouble scrambling for grip. I have very little gravel driving experience in real life, so I can't really comment on the gravel handling, but I believe that the grip levels on tarmac need some work. At least in Germany, the grip levels should differ a lot more between tarmac, concrete and cobblestones.

Having said all this, maybe it's better this way. We're not all rally drivers yet we all want to be able to drive like one, so maybe Codies have actually found a sweet spot here. After all, it would probably take a lot of the fun out of it if we're driving these 12km stages always stressing about spinning out. What do you guys think?
Well... I just cant agree with this.

We are talking about serious racing rally cars. The have tyre compunds for each and every surface. ATM we only have the most "grippy" ones.

Yes, gravel its one of the most slippery surface but with the right car/tyre you can experience high levels of grip. You cant just get stationary spinning wheels on gravel! no matter if its a 4WD, RWD or FWD. Unless you put some brake you will advance for sure, even in ICE.

An F2 kit car as a moster traction as well but I dought you can get "propelled forward like in a slingshot". Dont forget the speed you see, its the wheel/drivetrain spin, NOT THE REAL SPEED. So, you can see one of these F2 in 1st gear on the red zone reading 90km/h ... but can perfecly being moving at REAL 30km/h until it get some traction to reach those readed 90km/h.

Someone commented something about PROJECT CARS putting it as an example... sorry, but pCARS can only be an example of shame and how not to do physics. If out there are an unreal physics, the pCARS are ones... not to mention they are using the same physics used on NFS Shift titles, a bit improved but the same. So please, dont dare to compare DR with pCARS because thres not even a point to compare. If you talk about graphics, car model, textures... OK, pCARS is the real deal, but nothing more.

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Pcars physics only a bit improved over NFS... Yeah, you just showed that you have no clue what you are talking about.
Pcars uses one of the most advanced tyre physics system out there. However, I am not saying that everything is perfect in pcars, far from it.

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Hehe, experts, experts everywhere. Project cars its very good game, but not 100% simulator, its like forza, but better at the physic.
OzoreXS I'm just guessing, but you don't have wheel ? .. and project cars ? :hushed:  BTW: I recommend you to read those threads: http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/5865/too-much-grip , http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/6029/does-the-game-have-too-much-grip next buy proper spec rally gravel tyres and then complain about grip :)






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Hehe, experts, experts everywhere. Project cars its very good game, but not 100% simulator, its like forza, but better at the physic.
OzoreXS I'm just guessing, but you don't have wheel ? .. and project cars ? :hushed:  BTW: I recommend you to read those threads: http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/5865/too-much-grip , http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/6029/does-the-game-have-too-much-grip next buy proper spec rally gravel tyres and then complain about grip :)

1) I´m not an expert. Never said that. I´m free to express myself when and where I want.
2) I´m playing with WHEELS since 1997. What about you?
3) I participated actively during the development of pCARS for 2 years! Actually I dont own it because I got so much frustrated the launching day (seeing the buggy, chaotic game they vomited. Now seems better)
4) That links are just your point of view, perfecly respectable. And I agree with mostly said out there.
5)... relax man. I never wanted to create polemic and I have nothing against you or the OP.

If I said something, here or anywhere else, that molested you @carlosDR or @PiotrAS191 , I apologize. But you have to understand we are devating things. You have to respect the others opinions even if you dont agree.
Dont tell me "I have no clue of what I´m talking about" or call me "expert". Lets chat. Express your point of view.

Regards!
ps.: I´m looking forward to PVP race with you guys :smiley: 

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It's not about views, it is about facts.
You stated : "...they are using the same physics used on NFS Shift titles, a bit improved but the same."
That is plain wrong. And if you have been a member of pcars throughout the development, you should know that.
You are entitled to your opinion, though. You can say that you don't like pcars physics all day long, nothing wrong with that.

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When doing a big drift in RX, like 90 degrees sideways and you have full throttle in, lets say 3rd gear the car actually looses the speed and it feels like someones doing som clutching FOR you.. This is not right... I like to catch some backward drifting with 4wd, but when I keep my foot down and waiting for the car to straighten up, it looses all the momentum and STOPS? I've even tried to thighten up the diffs to maximum, but it doesnt seem to help..

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Exactly, just look at ken block gymkhana videos for example, he's doing all the corners on full throttle, in dirt rally when I try this my car stops.. BTW: We have some nice modification, goin to assetto corsa, in the team they have wrc enginer so they have real data etc.! So if you wan't trully rally expierience, don't buy Dirt Rally, support rallylegends mod!!

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Exactly, just look at ken block gymkhana videos for example, he's doing all the corners on full throttle, in dirt rally when I try this my car stops.. BTW: We have some nice modification, goin to assetto corsa, in the team they have wrc enginer so they have real data etc.! So if you wan't trully rally expierience, don't buy Dirt Rally, support rallylegends mod!!

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Exactly, just look at ken block gymkhana videos for example, he's doing all the corners on full throttle, in dirt rally when I try this my car stops.. BTW: We have some nice modification, goin to assetto corsa, in the team they have wrc enginer so they have real data etc.! So if you wan't trully rally expierience, don't buy Dirt Rally, support rallylegends mod!!
Yeah because AC is a great rally game.... Idiot.
If I want a true rally experience I'll go out there and do it myself too. 

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@PiotrAS191 Ken Block's gymkhana videos are a bad example because he has twice the power of a regular WRC car for those clips.

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Exactly, just look at ken block gymkhana videos for example, he's doing all the corners on full throttle, in dirt rally when I try this my car stops.. BTW: We have some nice modification, goin to assetto corsa, in the team they have wrc enginer so they have real data etc.! So if you wan't trully rally expierience, don't buy Dirt Rally, support rallylegends mod!!
Yeah I bet Block is using tires that will give him best possible grip when doing ghymkhana.

NOT.

I really like AC btw, but in all honesty, when it comes to sound AC is the Gran Turismo of PC simracing.

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@PiotrAS191 Ken Block's gymkhana videos are a bad example because he has twice the power of a regular WRC car for those clips.
I think he was comparing it to the RX car behavior in DiRT. And Blocks Fiestas in the Gymkhana videos have around 650 BHP, so about the same as Rallycross cars in DiRT

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Blocks cars are setup to be driven like that though, a rally cross car is set up to go as fast as possible round the rx circuit, not as sideways as possible. 

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That was only example.. We are talking about wheelspin, right, not grip. I've mean there's too much wheelspin. " I like to catch some backward drifting with 4wd, but when I keep my foot down and waiting for the car to straighten up, it looses all the momentum and STOPS? I've even tried to thighten up the diffs to maximum, but it doesnt seem to help", "I would say that they have too much wheelspin, you do a handbrake turn, you let the throttle and the car is drastically slowing down" etc. Try in new rx update, do donuts with full throttle, impossible, car stops.. take a look at this.
BTW: Anyone have experience with "Lico by sparco" products? I want to buy Lico High Fire shoes, but
they cost very low, so I'm little scared of their durability.




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You are right about the wheelpin problem. Often the car just slows down to a full stop, all while keeping the throttle floored and the tyres spinning.

I had another incident at Hell, I was drifting heavily into the fast gravel corner after the downhill section. I was drifting so hard that I almost spun 180°. I kept the revs high and the tyres spinning but at some moment when I reached almost 180°, I lost all the power. It was like the car shut down. I couldn't get the revs up again until I came to a full stop.

Maybe it is a problem with the autoclutch, but even clutch override didn't help. Don't know if that problem is tyre related too.
As I have said in the physics thread, imho the tyres have too much lateral grip or there is something wrong with the outside tyre wall. Cars are losing too much momentum and inertia when going sideways at slower speeds with spinning tyres.

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Guys, I dont know what to think... in one hand this 2 buds insist in that behavior can be reproduced and I believe them.

But in the other hand IT NEVER HAPPENED to me. I cannot promise I have wheelpin going reverse (dont remember) but what is sure is I never stoped or stalled an RX car in DR.

Maybe you just have a very long gear (like 4th) inside the slowest part of the hairpin? BTW, hard (closed) differentials dont help with this, specially the central dif. if its too hard and the car is not fully upgraded.

Make some tests with fully opened differentials!

PD: I can make donuts as I could on dirt 3, 2.... without any effort! Just stop the car, turn the wheel to one side, full throtle and there you go... :neutral: 

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