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New tyres model


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Hi, 

I've read everywhere that game has a new physic tyre model...but couldn't find any other hints or info about WHAT has changed! It just say "more realistic" but I was wondering if it is possible to know exactly what working differente now and how to dial with it (about car setup pressures, susp geometry etc)... Thanks in advance! 

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On 7/17/2021 at 5:30 PM, Alastre said:

Hi, 

I've read everywhere that game has a new physic tyre model...but couldn't find any other hints or info about WHAT has changed! It just say "more realistic" but I was wondering if it is possible to know exactly what working differente now and how to dial with it (about car setup pressures, susp geometry etc)... Thanks in advance! 

Nothing is ever mentioned about what has specifically changed. It's simply "updated tyre model" and bam, you just have to adapt to the changes

I've no idea how they make big changes like that but from what I can tell the tyres have a much more detailed grip feeling and less low speed grip (annoyingly)

Setup wise, higher downforce is now more common and different pressures pay a bigger role in how the car feels

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Posted (edited)

Yeah also beacause there's something weird about aero load...according to some reviews and producers

"Firstly, the physics model now measures floor downforce. It’s working out how much grip you have not just by how much air is passing over the car and at what speed, but how much is passing under it too....F1 2021’s step towards greater realism with variable floor downforce demands a much more cautious approach. Suspension parameters need to be changed, overall downforce levels revised, and racing lines tweaked to avoid upsetting the rear and losing traction on corner exit."

well yesterday I was testing in Spain...with a pretty much stable setup I've lowered the rear ride height by one click...in real life this would mean shift the CoP back, aka more understeer...unfortunatly the car suddenly became oversteery in acceleration (and ok I can understand this, more load, more grip on the back more chance to spin in case you put the power down too harshly) but why the hell it became oversteery in fast corners???? There's no reason...also it should be time for them to send out UDP load data and RH for telemetry software, stopping us wondering where's CoP and how much aero load a 5 click wings is...

Edited by Alastre
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1 hour ago, Alastre said:

Yeah also beacause there's something weird about aero load...according to some reviews and producers

"Firstly, the physics model now measures floor downforce. It’s working out how much grip you have not just by how much air is passing over the car and at what speed, but how much is passing under it too....F1 2021’s step towards greater realism with variable floor downforce demands a much more cautious approach. Suspension parameters need to be changed, overall downforce levels revised, and racing lines tweaked to avoid upsetting the rear and losing traction on corner exit."

well yesterday I was testing in Spain...with a pretty much stable setup I've lowered the ride height by one click...in real life this would mean shift the CoP back, aka more understeer...unfortunatly the car suddenly became oversteery in acceleration (and ok I can understand this, more load, more grip on the back more chance to spin in case you put the power down too harshly) but why the hell it became oversteery in fast corners???? There's no reason...also it should be time for them to send out UDP load data and RH for telemetry software, stopping us wondering where's CoP and how much aero load a 5 click wings is...

It would be helpful to make it clear who you were quoting there, and to provide a link to the source.

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5 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

It would be helpful to make it clear who you were quoting there, and to provide a link to the source.

My bad sorry!

https://traxion.gg/f1-2021-game-director-explains-any-calendar-changes-still-work-for-us/

https://www.pcgamesn.com/f1-2021/review-pc

We all know it's not a sim, but in 2021 it's time to improve setups components, adding dampers, bump stops and 3rd springs...which ironically are there, are simulated (you can finde them in the gata data files) but you can't touch them in the setup...

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Dampers and hump stops are just annoying settings that really don’t need to be added.  People by this sim game cause they want to be a racing driver not a race engineer.. it’s the engineers job to make the finer adjustments.  From track telemetry and driver feedback.   So realistically when you select a suspension setting the it will include dampener etc srytimgs

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@Alastre was it T9? Where you experienced oversteer?

And just to make sure, CoP in this scenario refers to center of pressure? The aero balance of the car?

I got something similar in Spain. Got my setup alright, was satisfied with its performance and balance on the whole track, but I would still struggle with T9.

You come down the hill, take that sharp left canted bend at the bottom (T7) and start making your way uphill. Ride (partially) the kerb on the right, full throttle with the car pretty much straight, positioning yourself on the left side, sharp entry to the right at T9 at the end of the kerb, you're finally cresting the hill and somewhere beyond the apex the car goes bananas. That was my experience, does any of that ring true to you?

It was mostly my line. At first it was a bit of snap oversteer, the car would understeer uphill and when the front finally sunk in at the end of the ascent it would pull me off the line rapidly. That fixed (I think I did it with camber?), I noticed I would get in trouble if (1) any of my left wheels step on the grass right before attacking T9, which was clearly visible on a replay by the cloud of dust kicked up, and (2) specially if I put a wheel on the painted surfaces at the edge of the track to the left, on corner exit.

By being mindful of that, I got over T9 relatively quickly.

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I’ve always found Spain annoying ever since I first drove it.   Used to constantly spin off at just about every corner as soon as I clipped a curb.  So I found myself always doing badly as I would take corners wide.    And then I found the trick to Spain is being super aggressive and when taking corners when you touch the curbs and you must to do quick laps is makes sure you have as much off the car over the curb as track limits allow.   Even with all the new settings Spain is just another track although I hate sector 3

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8 hours ago, ScaredDuck said:

Dampers and hump stops are just annoying settings that really don’t need to be added.  People by this sim game cause they want to be a racing driver not a race engineer.. it’s the engineers job to make the finer adjustments.  From track telemetry and driver feedback.   So realistically when you select a suspension setting the it will include dampener etc srytimgs

It's your opinion bud and indeed i respect it. But totally disagree. 

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On 8/9/2021 at 2:33 PM, marioho said:

@Alastre was it T9? Where you experienced oversteer?

And just to make sure, CoP in this scenario refers to center of pressure? The aero balance of the car?

I got something similar in Spain. Got my setup alright, was satisfied with its performance and balance on the whole track, but I would still struggle with T9.

You come down the hill, take that sharp left canted bend at the bottom (T7) and start making your way uphill. Ride (partially) the kerb on the right, full throttle with the car pretty much straight, positioning yourself on the left side, sharp entry to the right at T9 at the end of the kerb, you're finally cresting the hill and somewhere beyond the apex the car goes bananas. That was my experience, does any of that ring true to you?

It was mostly my line. At first it was a bit of snap oversteer, the car would understeer uphill and when the front finally sunk in at the end of the ascent it would pull me off the line rapidly. That fixed (I think I did it with camber?), I noticed I would get in trouble if (1) any of my left wheels step on the grass right before attacking T9, which was clearly visible on a replay by the cloud of dust kicked up, and (2) specially if I put a wheel on the painted surfaces at the edge of the track to the left, on corner exit.

By being mindful of that, I got over T9 relatively quickly.

Hi @marioho nope it wasn't T9, rather T3...Yup Center of pressure indeed. In a balanced car (or even as a rule of thumb), if you lower axle RH you put more load on that axle...so if I lower rear RH by 1 click (again stop this "click" settings, they should use NM for springs and mm for RH...you don't know how much MM you are lowering the car according to the suspension stiffness...it's all a left left right right and a guess about...) I'd expect to feel more  understeer in fast corners not the opposite...in turn 3 with just a click lower car became unresponsive and spin. My only possibile thought is that i'm bottoming out but guess what, you can just guess, no data to refer to. I might stiffer rear springs to prevent this hypothetical bottoming out, but doing that I'd add oversteer over oversteer as a stiffer rear springs will load faster under accleration. Well, never mind, it's just a bit of try&error without data! Was going to close the lap with 1.14.8 but wasted it.

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The other fast right bend? Haha yeah, I see!

I'm with you. Proper units and absolute values, please! Not these abstract scales and litany of "this to left, this to the right" setup "guides". 

My best guess here would be your car bottoming out for not having enough clearance for the rear suspension under that aero load and acceleration.

To be honest, trimming the ride height is one of the last things I do with my setups. And that's if I'm not content with just reaching a reasonable height and just going with it. Having only the scraping sound and the fireworks in replays to know if you're hitting the underfloor saps a bunch of the fun.

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Even when you look at the telemetry data it is difficult to figure out when you are bottoming out. There is the variable of suspension position (one for each wheel) - and I am assuming 0 is the starting point that the ride height is set at. But to address previous comments - what is a "3" ride height or a "7"? Sometimes you can look for a decrease in speed when see a significant drop in the suspension position and you are on a straight - as an example. But you are still guessing at how many "clicks" you need to resolve it... 

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17 hours ago, marioho said:

The other fast right bend? Haha yeah, I see!

I'm with you. Proper units and absolute values, please! Not these abstract scales and litany of "this to left, this to the right" setup "guides". 

My best guess here would be your car bottoming out for not having enough clearance for the rear suspension under that aero load and acceleration.

To be honest, trimming the ride height is one of the last things I do with my setups. And that's if I'm not content with just reaching a reasonable height and just going with it. Having only the scraping sound and the fireworks in replays to know if you're hitting the underfloor saps a bunch of the fun.

Actually after the 1st patch i have no more sparks or really a few from time to time...me as the other cars as well...plus the scraping sound that last year was always present, no matter the RH you choose, it's totally absent this year...

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