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AI ridiculously fast in high speed corners


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So I thought about something, maybe it is not the AI taking the corners to fast, but the player not be able to take the corner as fast as intended, for example, watch cops corner on Silverstone, in real life that is ez flat, while in game I even need to downshift to 7th gear there to be able to take it without ramming in to the barrier.

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Hello. Sorry for my broken english.

 

So i have been experiencing these same issues and decided to focus on Spa to better understand what is happening.

Mercedes/GP mode/94 difficulty (much lower than in 2020 but i like the new agressivenes of the ai so hey, why not)

At first, the AI kept pulling 1s in 2nd sector on me easily, i just could not take Pouhon as fast as they did.

So i kept fiddling with my setup, i disabled internal carcas temps, simple dmg model (for some reason Spa keeps destroying my underbody and i cant tell where or why even with high car + the bugged ui that likes green doesnt help), and finally came with one, that sacrifices straight line speed but allows me to replicate what the ai does at pouhon (the smallest of lifts and light tap on the brakes). And the result is that in quali, Hamilton beat me by 0.25s (all of that is straight line speed as i expected, i was fastest in 2nd sector) so i was sitting there thinking that i may have solved this ai problem.

But no, in race, the ai is soooooo fast through the entire lap. I passed Ham in turn one and instantly became a roadblock for the ai. By lap 2 Ver took the spot and Ham with medium compound (i started on softs) was on my rear wing as if dirty air was just a conspiracy theory made by bad drivers. By lap 5 Ver had pulled by 5s from me and while i was still somewhat close it became apparent, that not just in Pouhon but allmost everywhere he seems to be driving a car that is 100kgs lighter than mine.

 

My conclusion: To me it seems that the ai may not be the problem. I have a very strong suspicion that the ai simply does not have the weight penalty from the full fuel tank (my car with the nimble setup from quali simply refuses to turn unless i lift/brake or both). 

But im not sure enough, so thats why im writing this as it is instead of a bug report. It may well be combination of more things.

 

Another thing that i noticed: Comunity creators that race at 110 diff dont seem to either notice the problem, are able to overcome it with much higher skill or the problem doesnt exist at this level of diff. As if lowering difficulty makes the ai slower only somwhere/sometimes.

 

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13 hours ago, UndercoverNL said:

So I thought about something, maybe it is not the AI taking the corners to fast, but the player not be able to take the corner as fast as intended, for example, watch cops corner on Silverstone, in real life that is ez flat, while in game I even need to downshift to 7th gear there to be able to take it without ramming in to the barrier.

I was thinking about the exact same thing! And wrote about it in a post on page 3:

Quote

I've been thinking, guys. What if it's not AI and/or racing line that are broken? What if WE are? What if we're simply not getting as much front downforce as we actually should? I just find it weird that there's this huge understeer that we can do nothing about. People are trying to compensate with the setups, but even if they're setting max front wing, it's still not enough. It's just not normal. Even taking into account the new regulations, the 10% downforce reduction was to the REAR, not the front. It's the rear end of the floor that was affected, nothing else. So why are we having this problem? Why do we suddenly have a fraction of the front downforce we used to have, literally for no reason? Surely, this can't be intentional.

 

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2 hours ago, BarryBL said:

To manage expectations here, a 'fix' won't be so simple here. We have to have discussions on preferred AI behaviour and then consider wholesale changes if that is what is deemed the correct course of action.

We are having those discussions now, but it is in its early phases. To make complete changes to behaviour, if we did so, will take a large amount of time and resource. Once I have a update, I will add on here.

If the changes necessary are so extensive, then wouldn't it be more productive to just artificially restrict AI throttle level through particular sections? At least as a temporary solution, until the next release.

Alternatively, you could enhance the player car performance to be more in line with AI.

PS Sorry, I don't really know how your AI works, so my suggestion is probably stupid. I would be glad to suggest something else if you could share some technical details, but I guess those are under tons of NDAs. So I guess there's nothing to do but wait 😭

Edited by CityGhostGamer
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On 7/20/2021 at 9:22 AM, SCStunner said:

Hi everyone,

So, i had this suspicion while racing Silverstone in MyTeam, where the AI has insane grip through the second sector (especially Copse). You can check Tom97's video in regards:

 

I got to Spa in my career, and the same happens through Pouhon (I've read about Zandvoort too, but yet to race it). The AI just has so much grip, it can go easily flat without understeer or lateral sliding that the player has to deal instead. I recorded a quick video to compare myself to the AI in that corner:

Granted, it's a MyTeam car vs a Red Bull, but a 40 kph difference in that corner is not realistic at all, also given I was trying out quite high wings (7-9).

 

Hopefully we can being this issue to the developer's attention, as it is more frustrating than the AI just being faster overall (we can't turn down the difficulty for just one corner).

Completely agree. Suzuka also. The S section at Suzuka combined with 130r later in the lap is horrendous 

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Hello again. 

As stated in my previous post, i had trouble with the ai in the race session (practice and quali was fine).

But the fact that larger youtubers who focus on F1 2021 did not mention anything kept nagging me so i kept trying different approaches. Basically i tried to reset myself to avoid doing what i did in F1 2020.

And the result: It may (for now, i only focused on Spa) not be the ai at all. Before, at 94 difficulty, the ai kept destroying me from the start of the race. The car just felt so heavy, understeery and generaly weird when full of fuel. I ran a setup from steam workshop, and so far as i know, many setups there are generally similar (did not bother with TT exclusive setups). 

I used same gp settings but this time i went for both tire temps: Mercedes/GP mode/94 difficulty Full quali/Full race.

So, i took the setup that felt best for me and changed it a bit: I ran front wing higher than rear by one point, for quali i had on-t diff at 95% and brakes at 57. I was worried that it will be unbalanced as hell but it felt actually wery good. In the race the same thing as before happened, got destroyed. So, i restarted the gp and the only difference i made was turning my on-t diff for the start of the race down to 50% and brakes down to 54% and that may have done it. The difference was night and day. After starting 2nd i managed to pass Ham in turn one and after that it was close, but actually so much fun. This time we were both on meds and in Pouhon i was loosing only 0.1s to Ham but i made 0.1-0.3 on the straights so it sort of equalled (this tells me that he ran a bit higher wings) because it was only Pouhon that i lost due to the car. We passed each other few times during 21 laps and the gap was never higher than 0.7s both ways. When he passed me for the first time i actually managed to stay no more than 0.5s behind him for the entire lap and the next lap made a move on him in the second drs zone and made it stick. I mean, instead of stopping i actually kept playing because of how much fun it was. I mean it finally felt like i was racing Hamilton and not some cheating bot. The difference to the rest of the field felt accurate since the Mercs so far are 0.5s per lap faster than RB (more or less) at base performance. I think that if i turned my wings a bit higher, like both by 1-2 points i may have been actually faster than Ham.

 

I am going to try Silverstone with the same approach and see what happens since i see it mentioned many times.

Edited by Dariiem
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12 minutes ago, CityGhostGamer said:

@Dariiem So you're basically saying that fully unlocked differential  (and some rear wing) fixed it... Even though everyone moved to locked because unlocked is too oversteery...

Mmmkay, I'm gonna try it now, out of curiosity. I'm ready to try almost anything at this point =D

It for some reason worked for me. Instead of loosing 0.8 to 1.5 s i was finaly where i was at 2020 at 97 to 100 difficulty. In all sectors i was at the same performance with the ai more or less. I like to make it feel real. I really hate when youre slower in one sector but equall it out by being faster in others, feels so unrealistic. 

I ran wings 6f 5r.

Also i had to be way more creative with the gas pedal than in 2020. 

Edited by Dariiem
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45 minutes ago, Dariiem said:

I ran wings 6f 5r.

Tried exactly that. And 50% diff. As expected, the unlocked diff made it easier to accelerate out of corners... but that's about it. And of course I still had to either lift or touch the brake through Pouhon. I did about 10 laps with the setup, got kinda used to it, improved my best time by about 0.2

And then I loaded back the TT setup with 90% diff and 9-5 wings and in two laps smashed it by 0.6 easily.

Sorry, man. Top TT setups are there for a reason. It's because they've provided the fastest lap times out of millions.

I'm glad it worked for you, maybe it just gave you more confidence in the car, to push more aggressively. But at the end of the day it's not faster overall, and it doesn't help with high speed corners in the slightest.

UPD Maybe with this setup you're just able to perform at a higher level than your current difficulty level.

Because what you say about only losing 1 tenth through Pouhon is. Un. Real. Try T7 at Zandvoort. Then we'll talk 😃

Edited by CityGhostGamer
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27 minutes ago, CityGhostGamer said:

Tried exactly that. And 50% diff. As expected, the unlocked diff made it easier to accelerate out of corners... but that's about it. And of course I still had to either lift or touch the brake through Pouhon. I did about 10 laps with the setup, got kinda used to it, improved my best time by about 0.2

And then I loaded back the TT setup with 90% diff and 9-5 wings and in two laps smashed it by 0.6 easily.

Sorry, man. Top TT setups are there for a reason. It's because they've provided the fastest lap times out of millions.

I'm glad it worked for you, maybe it just gave you more confidence in the car, to push more aggressively. But at the end of the day it's not faster overall, and it doesn't help with high speed corners in the slightest.

UPD Maybe with this setup you're just able to perform at a higher level than your current difficulty level.

Because what you say about only losing 1 tenth through Pouhon is. Un. Real. Try T7 at Zandvoort. Then we'll talk 😃

I will give the TT setups a try, but when i tried them at Spain and Hungary the rear end felt too unstable for me. Generally i prefer setups that do not understeer but have stable-ish rear end. In the end, i allways in these games try to match the ai to my skill level where im equal or slightly worse than top level teammate to keep the game challenging but still fun. I also tend to use light touches to brakes to help with turning in med to slow corners, i did not do that as much in 2020 as i do now. 

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44 minutes ago, Dariiem said:

I will give the TT setups a try, but when i tried them at Spain and Hungary the rear end felt too unstable for me. Generally i prefer setups that do not understeer but have stable-ish rear end. In the end, i allways in these games try to match the ai to my skill level where im equal or slightly worse than top level teammate to keep the game challenging but still fun. I also tend to use light touches to brakes to help with turning in med to slow corners, i did not do that as much in 2020 as i do now. 

Exactly, mate. You're talking about personal preference. We're talking about AI doing things that are not humanly possible. It's not a matter of perception or setups, at this point. It's just a fact.

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4 hours ago, CityGhostGamer said:

@Dariiem So you're basically saying that fully unlocked differential  (and some rear wing) fixed it... Even though everyone moved to locked because unlocked is too oversteery...

Mmmkay, I'm gonna try it now, out of curiosity. I'm ready to try almost anything at this point =D

Unlocked differential with throttle 50% will make the car less oversteery.  

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1 hour ago, Dunky1980 said:

Unlocked differential with throttle 50% will make the car less oversteery.  

Yeah, I know. Experienced it myself 2 posts down, in fact. I just never tried it in this game previously, I just wrote what I heard people say on youtube prior to release. Guess they were wrong. It makes perfect sense that the car would be less oversteery with unlocked diff, but you never know how physics in the game are going to work compared to how they're supposed to work, you know? Last year's game is the best example of that.

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I put this graph in another post re AI in the wet - it probably has some meaning here as well.

Attached is an image of a race telemetry, Human in green AI in brown. Where we brake, turn and throttle (see green lines in the graph) - the AI does micro brakes and micro throttles every millisecond (see the up and down brown lines) and so they don't suffer the physics model we do when cornering. 

I don't know why they have set the AI handling this way - it would make sense for them to mirror human actions. We can't manipulate things this way - and it definitely has an impact on handling. 

Maybe it's always been like this - I don't know. Only found this telemetry program a month ago. 

IMG_0133.jpg

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@blackheartbart7 This would be relevant if AI was actually any good in the rain. But they're not. The last wet race I had, AI triggered 9 DNFs and five safety cars. Those were not engine failures and I didn't even overtake anyone after lap 1. AI just couldn't keep their cars straight to save their lives. It was straight up public lobby sBinalla bonanza out there.

So unfortunately, it's completely irrelevant to AI speed through high speed corners. @Blent already provided some telemetry via the same app on page 2 of this thread, only on Spa and in the dry, and it clearly shows that even if a player lap is overall a lot faster, AI still take that one corner (T12) miles quicker than any player ever could. That is the problem here. Not their overall pace, but their inconsistency. And this corner isn't even the worst case. I'd love to see some telemetry from Silverstone or Zandvoort, to be honest.

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It's absolutely hilarious that people are forced to turn down the AI to compete at tracks like Silverstone because they gain at least half a second in one corner, which has the effect of the AI being complete snails everywhere else so you can just hold on to the back of a car much faster than you and get DRS because they make all their time up through one corner. I can handle being slower than them if it's actually possible to match them but it isn't.

Career mode used to be the one game mode that actually worked properly and now that's broken for the most part too unless you don't know any better. I don't want to be rude but I don't understand how it's now apparently too hard to develop a decent AI when it's been a standout compared to other racing games in the past. 2017 and 2018 were fine and the last 2 games were ok except for the AI being SF90's in a straight line but 2021 career mode is pretty much unplayable for me. It isn't fun in the slightest to just watch AI disappear in high speed corners and there's nothing you can do about it.

This should be the absolute top priority on the fix list in my opinion. Ruins Career Mode and My Team if you play anywhere near a semi high level.

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6 hours ago, ProvableTerror said:

It's absolutely hilarious that people are forced to turn down the AI to compete at tracks like Silverstone because they gain at least half a second in one corner, which has the effect of the AI being complete snails everywhere else so you can just hold on to the back of a car much faster than you and get DRS because they make all their time up through one corner. I can handle being slower than them if it's actually possible to match them but it isn't.

Career mode used to be the one game mode that actually worked properly and now that's broken for the most part too unless you don't know any better. I don't want to be rude but I don't understand how it's now apparently too hard to develop a decent AI when it's been a standout compared to other racing games in the past. 2017 and 2018 were fine and the last 2 games were ok except for the AI being SF90's in a straight line but 2021 career mode is pretty much unplayable for me. It isn't fun in the slightest to just watch AI disappear in high speed corners and there's nothing you can do about it.

This should be the absolute top priority on the fix list in my opinion. Ruins Career Mode and My Team if you play anywhere near a semi high level.

agree, this should be the first problem to fix because it completely ruins the offline game, but they said they are just looking, this is ridiculous from them, releasing a broken game and it won't even be fixed within months

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On 8/9/2021 at 12:01 PM, BarryBL said:

Hi @Kevin1723,

To manage expectations here, a 'fix' won't be so simple here. We have to have discussions on preferred AI behaviour and then consider wholesale changes if that is what is deemed the correct course of action.

We are having those discussions now, but it is in its early phases. To make complete changes to behaviour, if we did so, will take a large amount of time and resource. Once I have a update, I will add on here.

Given "Two-Player Career" is one of the big new features, completely breaking either AI or the player handling model making career mode a complete mess for difficulty settings is far from a good look. Following this up with a "it might get fixed" makes it look even worse. I won't ask why the AI isn't even close to following the same physics engine as players

I guess I'll continue abusing AI driving for me when paused in 2-player to get around this broken functionality 🤷‍♂️

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