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AI ridiculously fast in high speed corners


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On 10/12/2021 at 5:41 PM, Nuvolarix said:

By playing a little bit Esports Q 2022 in Austria, I have to say the biggest issue must be in qualifying performance as during that 6 laps race with Sainz (AI 110) I’m very competitive in Sector 3.

Although Sainz runs new soft tyres while Leclerc-Ricciardo-Perez are on the medium but I didn’t check whether they are new as well or not 🤔

Nuv

They are on very old tyres, that's why they don't look so fast in sector 3:

Leclerc (M) 28% used
Ricciardo (M) 30%
Perez (M) 39%

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EMILIA ROMAGNA - Imola - [patch 1.12]

  • compare the Playstation WR record with 'no aids' VS a qualifying lap of AI 110 in all the tracks reported in Barry's table (Note: the WR is the current best possible, the AI Q lap is typically made in a single session or at most two, in some cases it can be improved and quite easily achieved, but still good for telemetry purposes);

  • use red circles in the points of attention;

  • sometimes the WR has an 'alternate' line (I don't know if for connection problems or other), when I realized it I took another similar time, but in essence the general line does not change and the comparison is still possible;

  • in some tracks there's a much higher top speed by AI, this is due to setup reasons for which I ignore it.

T5 (Variante Villeneuve) [KO]

284528946_02.Imola_WR_vs_AI110.thumb.jpg.41ad4bc0cd4d949d755ab6486857fb23.jpg

Regards,
Nuv

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43 minutes ago, Cocchi1990 said:

Sorry @BarryBL, but how is it possible that this topic is still under investigation starting from 20th of July?

In addition, you have many details thanks to Nuvolarix. Could you give us updates or some news about that?

Thanks.

@Cocchi1990 the topic is under investigation because of the amount of work that changes would take. We, in theory, would have to:

  • Extensively test every track listed, included their corners.
  • Gauge what is a area that needs to be addressed on track, or is down to human inconsistencies. AI will always drive more consistently that human drivers because of human error. 
  • Find the resource to test these areas on different levels of ability across game modes (Some players on higher skill levels, lower skill levels etc.)
  • Balance this against other updates/additions/changes in game.
  • Draw up the changes
  • Re-train the AI
  • Balance the AI to produce the laptimes needed to match AI levels in-game. 
  • Test these changes
  • The whole launch and patch process to implement changes to the public. 

So yeah, a fair amount of work. As much as I would like to say that its a simple resolution here, it absolutely is not. 

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5 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

@Cocchi1990 the topic is under investigation because of the amount of work that changes would take. We, in theory, would have to:

  • Extensively test every track listed, included their corners.
  • Gauge what is a area that needs to be addressed on track, or is down to human inconsistencies. AI will always drive more consistently that human drivers because of human error. 
  • Find the resource to test these areas on different levels of ability across game modes (Some players on higher skill levels, lower skill levels etc.)
  • Balance this against other updates/additions/changes in game.
  • Draw up the changes
  • Re-train the AI
  • Balance the AI to produce the laptimes needed to match AI levels in-game. 
  • Test these changes
  • The whole launch and patch process to implement changes to the public. 

So yeah, a fair amount of work. As much as I would like to say that its a simple resolution here, it absolutely is not. 

Is it possible to have an e-sportsman drive on all tracks with the current driving physics and then program the AI on him while driving? So logically there would be no more tracks where the AI is too OP or not? This game is unplayable for career players, that's just cheeky what the developers have done with this game.

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Just now, GamerDH said:

Is it possible to have an e-sportsman drive on all tracks with the current driving physics and then program the AI on him while driving? So logically there would be no more tracks where the AI is too OP or not? This game is unplayable for career players, that's just cheeky what the developers have done with this game.

Not that simple I'm afraid. Esports players play at a difficulty that, in theory, would be measured past our 110 cap. We have the 110 difficulty in-game and that isn't a challenge for the esports players. 99% of drivers won't actually drive like the esports players and gain the absolute performance they can find, so would not solve any issues. 

Unfortunately, its not a simple as a slider to tune AI by difficulty level, more nuanced than that. 

 

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1 minute ago, BarryBL said:

Not that simple I'm afraid. Esports players play at a difficulty that, in theory, would be measured past our 110 cap. We have the 110 difficulty in-game and that isn't a challenge for the esports players. 99% of drivers won't actually drive like the esports players and gain the absolute performance they can find, so would not solve any issues. 

Unfortunately, its not a simple as a slider to tune AI by difficulty level, more nuanced than that. 

Yes, I know. Then you have to adjust the level of difficulty where is the problem? It's better if a human player drives the tracks and then programs the ki that way. The developers have totally failed as far as the Ki is concerned. They should try a different way, because that's not the way to sell a game for full price that you couldn't play properly until now - I think that's a rip-off and just plain cheeky. 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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Unfortunately, its not a simple as a slider to tune AI by difficulty level based on one driver, more nuanced than that. 

As mentioned in my earlier message, to make these changes will take time to implement but we are working on it

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2 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

Unfortunately, its not a simple as a slider to tune AI by difficulty level based on one driver, more nuanced than that. 

As mentioned in my earlier message, to make these changes will take time to implement but we are working on it

yes, it's all well and good that you're working on it, but the game has been buggy from the start and still is after more than 3 months. So I think you should be allowed to ask for your money back for the people who paid full price for it. I think it's an absolute outrage. I am disappointed by this game.

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On 10/28/2021 at 12:00 PM, BarryBL said:

@Cocchi1990 the topic is under investigation because of the amount of work that changes would take. We, in theory, would have to:

  • Extensively test every track listed, included their corners.
  • Gauge what is a area that needs to be addressed on track, or is down to human inconsistencies. AI will always drive more consistently that human drivers because of human error. 
  • Find the resource to test these areas on different levels of ability across game modes (Some players on higher skill levels, lower skill levels etc.)
  • Balance this against other updates/additions/changes in game.
  • Draw up the changes
  • Re-train the AI
  • Balance the AI to produce the laptimes needed to match AI levels in-game. 
  • Test these changes
  • The whole launch and patch process to implement changes to the public. 

So yeah, a fair amount of work. As much as I would like to say that its a simple resolution here, it absolutely is not. 

So @BarryBL, to date where we are? which step of your list?

Thanks

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6 minutes ago, Cocchi1990 said:

So @BarryBL, to date where we are? which step of your list?

Thanks

No ETA, but we have found a number of corners that need addressing.

I'd like to sort of clear this one up a bit, as we've done a LOT of testing here, and have to be as objective as possible. We have shortlisted corners in question (specifics I cannot disclose at this time as not confirmed), but we will be working under the 'beyond reasonable doubt' methodology of any changes.

By far the biggest challenge here has been deciding what corners are absolute problems areas, and what are those that can be subject to human error, inconsistencies and driving styles. This is the same reason we couldn't just have a professional player drive the tracks and base it from there, as even they would have traits and preferred methods of play that would not translate to everyone. 

I hope to have a more concrete answer in the future, but deciding an evaluating this process has been time consuming and will be subject to players opinion (Players will be strong vs the AI in some areas and some other players will not). I hope this helps shed some light on our process however.

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22 hours ago, BarryBL said:

No ETA, but we have found a number of corners that need addressing.

I'd like to sort of clear this one up a bit, as we've done a LOT of testing here, and have to be as objective as possible. We have shortlisted corners in question (specifics I cannot disclose at this time as not confirmed), but we will be working under the 'beyond reasonable doubt' methodology of any changes.

By far the biggest challenge here has been deciding what corners are absolute problems areas, and what are those that can be subject to human error, inconsistencies and driving styles. This is the same reason we couldn't just have a professional player drive the tracks and base it from there, as even they would have traits and preferred methods of play that would not translate to everyone. 

I hope to have a more concrete answer in the future, but deciding an evaluating this process has been time consuming and will be subject to players opinion (Players will be strong vs the AI in some areas and some other players will not). I hope this helps shed some light on our process however.

Did you ever consider the nerf you guys gave tires at maximum load compared to last years game to be part of the problem? Implementing changes to that would leave far less corners to worry about.. Im questioning the decision anyway, buff all the other loads but at maximum load you nerf the grip by 35% when this is where current cars have such amazing grip? For me my mod is working for 90% of the problems so im not to bothered with it still taking a while lol

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still waiting for a fix for this. It also seems that the faster the cars get, the worse the problem. I’ll try to explain better: I mostly play myteam mode (and I’m forced to run 16 races seasons to avoid certain unplayable tracks like Zandvoort) at 104% difficulty 25% length, my car at almost the end of season 2 has the best chassis on par with McLaren and the best aero on par with Red Bull, 3rd best engine behind McLaren and Mercedes. My team mate is Russell (score 91). I was usually on par with him during the second half of season 1, even on ‘difficult’ tracks like Suzuka (I was just a couple of tenths slower in Suzuka). 
Now I’m at the end of season 2, I’ve won in Russia, I’ve been on podiums at France, Spa and Monza, then I go to Suzuka and I’m losing 9 tenths only in the first sector (of 1.1 secs from pole on the whole lap and 0.8 secs from Russell), qualifying 15th. Similar thing in Austin: 6 tenths lost in the first sector out of 9 tenths total on a lap (0.7 behind Russell).
It seems like with car developments improving the performances the gap is increasing after every race as if AI can go even faster through fast corners. I understand I could be better at some tracks compared to others, but on the same track with a slower and less developed car I was closer to the top in the faster sectors of the more ‘bugged’ tracks.

This situation is making it impossible for me to play the game, unless I significantly lower the AI level during season 2-3. Or I have to keep starting new MyTeams, as it’s more playable with less developed cars.

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23 hours ago, IamRoland said:

Still waiting for a fix for this. It also seems that the faster the cars get, the worse the problem. I’ll try to explain better: I mostly play myteam mode (and I’m forced to run 16 races seasons to avoid certain unplayable tracks like Zandvoort) at 104% difficulty 25% length, my car at almost the end of season 2 has the best chassis on par with McLaren and the best aero on par with Red Bull, 3rd best engine behind McLaren and Mercedes. My team mate is Russell (score 91). I was usually on par with him during the second half of season 1, even on ‘difficult’ tracks like Suzuka (I was just a couple of tenths slower in Suzuka). 
Now I’m at the end of season 2, I’ve won in Russia, I’ve been on podiums at France, Spa and Monza, then I go to Suzuka and I’m losing 9 tenths only in the first sector (of 1.1 secs from pole on the whole lap and 0.8 secs from Russell), qualifying 15th. Similar thing in Austin: 6 tenths lost in the first sector out of 9 tenths total on a lap (0.7 behind Russell).
It seems like with car developments improving the performances the gap is increasing after every race as if AI can go even faster through fast corners. I understand I could be better at some tracks compared to others, but on the same track with a slower and less developed car I was closer to the top in the faster sectors of the more ‘bugged’ tracks.

This situation is making it impossible for me to play the game, unless I significantly lower the AI level during season 2-3. Or I have to keep starting new MyTeams, as it’s more playable with less developed cars.

I'm noticing this too - came back to the game after a while away and figured my skills had just dropped a bit, but they don't explain the sheer performance gap that's developed.

I have a habit of dropping difficulty to 90 during practice (racing 95-100 depending on track), and early season 2 I would just about top the times with my car, and always something ridiculous like a 1.5 seconds ahead of my teammate. Just doing USA and Mexico back to back right now I'm half a second shy of the front man in FP2 and my teammate is right up beside me. They both have those fast corners and long S sections where I have to lift and the AI just... Doesn't. I'll take some performance degradation from me being away for a while, but not to the degree I'm seeing.

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I am trying the mod Meza994 mentioned in his post few posts above and so far it works. Im playing My Team with it (s1) so i did not test all tracks but so far (Hungary) it works for seemingly all problems with cornering speed. There might still be things i have not noticed or not yet reached but so far its good.

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21 hours ago, Dariiem said:

I am trying the mod Meza994 mentioned in his post few posts above and so far it works. Im playing My Team with it (s1) so i did not test all tracks but so far (Hungary) it works for seemingly all problems with cornering speed. There might still be things i have not noticed or not yet reached but so far its good.

Yup, i got a mod on Racedepartment thats a good average, Bahrain feels fluent, Silverstone is amazing, Hungary is fine, Pouhon you can get away with barely losing anything if at all when done perfectly etc. Zandvoort and Imola are the only real problems remaining as these have more AI related issues than the tyre grip..

 

On 11/16/2021 at 2:47 PM, MechanicalValky said:

I'm noticing this too - came back to the game after a while away and figured my skills had just dropped a bit, but they don't explain the sheer performance gap that's developed.

I have a habit of dropping difficulty to 90 during practice (racing 95-100 depending on track), and early season 2 I would just about top the times with my car, and always something ridiculous like a 1.5 seconds ahead of my teammate. Just doing USA and Mexico back to back right now I'm half a second shy of the front man in FP2 and my teammate is right up beside me. They both have those fast corners and long S sections where I have to lift and the AI just... Doesn't. I'll take some performance degradation from me being away for a while, but not to the degree I'm seeing.

For you and @IamRoland Its been in the past games too that the AI is trained for the car upgrades in such a way that they take full advantage of them. Now we are just mere humans and are not really capable of doing the frame perfect inputs the AI can to take full advantage of the upgrades all the time, only getting ~95% out of them which is enough to get us slower than before. Chances are high that it also adds up with the high speed corner AI bug/missing tyre grip for players. Hopefully Codemasters train the AI for future games with a little bit less perfection but its also kinda on us, some can adapt better to the upgrades/faster cars some have more problems, cant be balanced perfect, already hard enough to get it "right" for the base cars😜

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1 hour ago, Meza994 said:

Yup, i got a mod on Racedepartment thats a good average, Bahrain feels fluent, Silverstone is amazing, Hungary is fine, Pouhon you can get away with barely losing anything if at all when done perfectly etc. Zandvoort and Imola are the only real problems remaining as these have more AI related issues than the tyre grip..

What's the name of the mod?

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4 hours ago, BarryBL said:

Yeah, taking some time with the re-training and updates.

So i guess you guys will only change the AI? Not take into consideration that the tyre grip is wrong in the first place? Which is the reason why high speed corners are impossible to drive in the game as they do in real life?

Just asking in general because it kinda bothers me how unrealistic the car behaviour at high speed is compared to the rest.

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