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Thrustmaster - Force Feedback - FFB fading across a session


BarryBL
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1 hour ago, Olavstar said:

 Any news yet? Or still don't care that there are issues? @BarryBL

I have re-raised the ticket with Thrustmaster and our team as to why its happening with consoles. Have you completed the firmware update in December?

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4 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

I have re-raised the ticket with Thrustmaster and our team as to why its happening with consoles. Have you completed the firmware update in December?

Yeah I have done everything that was suggested, also contacted thrustmaster and I put my base into constant cooling mode but unfortunately nothing helps to solve the issue.

 

I want to apologise for my sarcastic and spam comments but I'm just frustrated that this issue is still occurring and I don't enjoy the game this way. 

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4 hours ago, RLLL said:

Still broken........

Yep, I'm losing a league race championship due to the issue.

Started p4 today, god nows how I managed to do that without FFB, but then the race was undrivable, spun 2 times, managed to somehow save 4 or 5 potential spins. But you literally can't feel anything without FFB, ended up p10 and chance of a good result in the standings is gone now. All because somehow after a patch or something the FFB is completely gone. Had no problems when the game came out but overtime it started to develop. If I had the money I'd buy a fanatec, because there is always so many issues with thrustmaster, whether its their fault or codemasters, but I'm done with it. Fanatec seems to have no issues whatsoever, but shame I don't have the money to buy one.

I'm sorry if my message counts as spam or anything but it's literally pointless in playing the game at this state, hope you can understand my frustration.

Edited by Olavstar
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Il y a 13 heures, Olavstar a dit :

Oui, je perds un championnat de course de championnat en raison du problème.

Commencé en p4 aujourd'hui, Dieu maintenant comment j'ai réussi à le faire sans FFB, mais ensuite la course a été incontournable, filée 2 fois, a réussi à sauver en quelque sorte 4 ou 5 tours potentiels. Mais vous ne pouvez littéralement rien ressentir sans FFB, vous avez fini p10 et les chances d'un bon résultat au classement ont disparu maintenant. Tout cela parce qu'en quelque sorte, après un patch ou quelque chose comme ça, la FFB a complètement disparu. Je n'ai eu aucun problème lorsque le jeu est sorti, mais en prolongation, il a commencé à se développer. Si j'avais l'argent, j'achèterais un fanatec, parce qu'il y a toujours tellement de problèmes avec thrustmaster, que ce soit de leur faute ou des codemasters, mais j'en ai fini avec ça. Fanatec ne semble avoir aucun problème, mais dommage que je n'aie pas l'argent pour en acheter un.

Je suis désolé si mon message compte comme du spam ou quoi que ce soit d'autre, mais il est littéralement inutile de jouer au jeu dans cet état, j'espère que vous pourrez comprendre ma frustration.

I no longer play f1 2021 but f1 2020 only because of this problem while waiting for it to be fixed... if I had known there was a force feedback problem I would not have bought f1 2021 DELUXE edition €80 and I'm not buying the next f1 games in the future
ps: I think this problem is there since Codemasters is associated with EA ... because there was not this problem before the f1 games cordially
Edited by AyrtonSenna5052
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1 Platform: PS5

2 Wheel: Thrustmaster T300 + TLCM Pedals 

3 Game-modes: doesnt matter. It's happening in career, time trial, ranked, social play... basically everywhere. I would say after approx 20-30 min the ffb fades and is completely gone.

4 Firmware: latest update

5 it happens in every session!

Guys this is unacceptable. Let's don't discuss the horrible driving physics which even f1 driver criticise and lets also don't discuss the force feedback in general of how the car behaves which is pretty limited and poor. But let's discuss that now the ffb is completely gone... the ironie is this problem exists till launch and was never really fixed and in about half a year you want to release the next game... such a disappointment for the official f1 licenced game, that's just embarrassing. Fix your game!

Edit: I tried the force fan mode.... doenst work... I tried to reduce ffb in the thruatmaster settings menu... doesn't work... but it works in all the other racing games I play.... so I assume there is a problem with the f1 console versions 

Edited by JohnnyTapia
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15 hours ago, JohnnyTapia said:

1 Platform: PS5

2 Wheel: Thrustmaster T300 + TLCM Pedals 

3 Game-modes: doesnt matter. It's happening in career, time trial, ranked, social play... basically everywhere. I would say after approx 20-30 min the ffb fades and is completely gone.

4 Firmware: latest update

5 it happens in every session!

Guys this is unacceptable. Let's don't discuss the horrible driving physics which even f1 driver criticise and lets also don't discuss the force feedback in general of how the car behaves which is pretty limited and poor. But let's discuss that now the ffb is completely gone... the ironie is this problem exists till launch and was never really fixed and in about half a year you want to release the next game... such a disappointment for the official f1 licenced game, that's just embarrassing. Fix your game!

Edit: I tried the force fan mode.... doenst work... I tried to reduce ffb in the thruatmaster settings menu... doesn't work... but it works in all the other racing games I play.... so I assume there is a problem with the f1 console versions 

I don't know why it's so hard to fix this, I really shouldn't post in this topic anymore but some communication and updates would be very nice from codemasters. They said a while ago that they fixed it but the fix caused other issues. I would like to know what those issues are, because surly it can't be worse than driving without FFB? I want to enjoy this game but this makes it impossible and its getting worse week by week, don't know how the manage to achieve that.

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I still have one question, because this problem has been going on since the beginning of the game. Is there any compensation for us? We pay a good amount of money for this game which eventually is unplayable due to the FFB issue, so I think it would be fair to compensate us, right?

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Anyone still having force feedback fade, can you post a screenshot of your force feedback settings in game. And if any are on pc, can you also post what the Thrustmaster device driver software is set too.

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2 hours ago, Ialyrn said:

Anyone still having force feedback fade, can you post a screenshot of your force feedback settings in game. And if any are on pc, can you also post what the Thrustmaster device driver software is set too.

I still have the issue after I've done every thing imaginable, here are my settings in game.

20220202_130341.jpg

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Okay, easy change that would help quality of life.

Having 150 FFB is more than likely causing clipping on your wheel. Considerably lower it. Those settings in general would be giving back such a strange experience. Bumps on the road but nothing anywhere else. 

1134570_20220202121008_1.png

 

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27 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

Okay, easy change that would help quality of life.

Having 150 FFB is more than likely causing clipping on your wheel. Considerably lower it. Those settings in general would be giving back such a strange experience. Bumps on the road but nothing anywhere else. 

1134570_20220202121008_1.png

 

Will try this, but doubt it will do much as I had the same issue with lower FFB settings. The settings on 0 came from Jarno Opmeer. You can still feel cerbs etc if they are on 0, but will try and see if this helps, thanks!

 

Did one corner but with these setting I literally have 0 feeling in the steering wheel...

 

Now I've done a lap and can give a bit more feedback:

- The initial input of steering had 0 feeling its like pushing air;

- When I turn more I can feel the wheel a bit more and have to a bit more pressure (?) On the wheel, hope you know what I mean;

- Overall its still very weak, but I can see why the 150 FFB might be part of the issue. I only did it because I normally had it on around 100 and then the issue became more prominent so put the FFB in game higher.

Edited by Olavstar
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3 minutes ago, Olavstar said:

Will try this, but doubt it will do much as I had the same issue with lower FFB settings. The settings on 0 came from Jarno Opmeer. You can still feel cerbs etc if they are on 0, but will try and see if this helps, thanks!

Having your vibration and force feedback strength set so high is probably why you are experiencing FFB fade. At that setting, it will be overworking the motor considerably. The thrustmaster wheels have a built in safety feature that reduces the force feedback strength when the motor gets too hot, which is there in order to protect the hardware from heat induced failure. The cooling fan in the device is only designed to cool the motor when the force feedback is been used at resonable and expected levels, even when set to always on. Push the feedback up too high, and perminant damage could occur to the device. As well as giving you a less than desirable end user experience.

As @BarryBL also stated, you will also be suffering from FFB clipping with the strength set so high.
Think of force feedback settings as an audio equalizer, if you make any particular audio frequency too high on the EQ; you bring distortion into the audio you are listening too. Reducing the detail, and overdriving your speakers. So you have the EQ set to reasonable levels in order to "enchance" the audio for your personal liking. Same for if you just crank the volume as high as it can go, you lose detail and gain distortion. With digital signals, it is almost always bad to cause a clipping situation.

This is how force feedback settings function, and when set too high, detail is lost and you get distortion in the feedback.

Also, on Thrustmaster wheels at the level of the TX, T300 and lower. You ideally want as little wheel damping as possible. As this adds in "fake" wheel weight, which also slows down its reaction to what is happening as you drive a virtual car and also creates a loss of detail. I use a T300, and I use 0 wheel damping. And this is the same in most racing titles. You will notice an increase in fidelity by lowering/removing it, along with reducing the overall feedback strength. I have my overall in game FFB strength about 65%.

The best racing titles use a dynamic wheel damper, which is only applied at low speeds, and reduced/removed at higher speeds. As it isnt as required an effect at higher speeds, due to self wheel aligning effects while in motion (the effect that centres the wheel while driving). In some instances with much more powerful wheel hardware (higher end fanatec offerings and especially direct drive wheels), wheels damping is needed in order to reduce osscilations in the wheel as you drive.

This may not entirely solve your issue, but it may help alieviate some of it. But if you always use your wheel in racing titles with the overall feedback strenght set too high. You may have inadvertantly damaged the hardware itself, on top of any possible issues with the current years F1 game.

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2 hours ago, Olavstar said:

Will try this, but doubt it will do much as I had the same issue with lower FFB settings. The settings on 0 came from Jarno Opmeer. You can still feel cerbs etc if they are on 0, but will try and see if this helps, thanks!

 

Did one corner but with these setting I literally have 0 feeling in the steering wheel...

 

Now I've done a lap and can give a bit more feedback:

- The initial input of steering had 0 feeling its like pushing air;

- When I turn more I can feel the wheel a bit more and have to a bit more pressure (?) On the wheel, hope you know what I mean;

- Overall its still very weak, but I can see why the 150 FFB might be part of the issue. I only did it because I normally had it on around 100 and then the issue became more prominent so put the FFB in game higher.

After a few laps I can say with the settings @BarryBL suggested (some minor tweeks to my liking) it feels better, at least it stays consistent for now. Thanks again! Although the FFB still has some issues with the streght it is a lot better to play now. Hope it stays like this and the issue there is will be solved quickly so FFB is as optimal as it gets!

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1 minute ago, Olavstar said:

After a few laps I can say with the settings @BarryBL suggested (some minor tweeks to my liking) it feels better, at least it stays consistent for now. Thanks again! Although the FFB still has some issues with the streght it is a lot better to play now. Hope it stays like this and the issue there is will be solved quickly so FFB is as optimal as it gets!

Thanks for the feedback @Olavstar. After trying 150 first hand(s), I don't know how people do it. Clipping under heavy FFB is a issue that can happen on all wheels, so best to run a little lower than expected to preserve wheel life. Also, feels a little ridiculous 

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2 hours ago, Ialyrn said:

Having your vibration and force feedback strength set so high is probably why you are experiencing FFB fade. At that setting, it will be overworking the motor considerably. The thrustmaster wheels have a built in safety feature that reduces the force feedback strength when the motor gets too hot, which is there in order to protect the hardware from heat induced failure. The cooling fan in the device is only designed to cool the motor when the force feedback is been used at resonable and expected levels, even when set to always on. Push the feedback up too high, and perminant damage could occur to the device. As well as giving you a less than desirable end user experience.

As @BarryBL also stated, you will also be suffering from FFB clipping with the strength set so high.
Think of force feedback settings as an audio equalizer, if you make any particular audio frequency too high on the EQ; you bring distortion into the audio you are listening too. Reducing the detail, and overdriving your speakers. So you have the EQ set to reasonable levels in order to "enchance" the audio for your personal liking. Same for if you just crank the volume as high as it can go, you lose detail and gain distortion. With digital signals, it is almost always bad to cause a clipping situation.

This is how force feedback settings function, and when set too high, detail is lost and you get distortion in the feedback.

Also, on Thrustmaster wheels at the level of the TX, T300 and lower. You ideally want as little wheel damping as possible. As this adds in "fake" wheel weight, which also slows down its reaction to what is happening as you drive a virtual car and also creates a loss of detail. I use a T300, and I use 0 wheel damping. And this is the same in most racing titles. You will notice an increase in fidelity by lowering/removing it, along with reducing the overall feedback strength. I have my overall in game FFB strength about 65%.

The best racing titles use a dynamic wheel damper, which is only applied at low speeds, and reduced/removed at higher speeds. As it isnt as required an effect at higher speeds, due to self wheel aligning effects while in motion (the effect that centres the wheel while driving). In some instances with much more powerful wheel hardware (higher end fanatec offerings and especially direct drive wheels), wheels damping is needed in order to reduce osscilations in the wheel as you drive.

This may not entirely solve your issue, but it may help alieviate some of it. But if you always use your wheel in racing titles with the overall feedback strenght set too high. You may have inadvertantly damaged the hardware itself, on top of any possible issues with the current years F1 game.

One of the best posts on this forum, my own stuff included. Agreed 100%.

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17 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

One of the best posts on this forum, my own stuff included. Agreed 100%.

Unfortunately, the majority of users tend to fill their heads with "received wisdom" from other channels.

I don't know a person alive that would not understand that an F1 car will not wrench your hands off.

Charles Leclerc's Onboard Pole Lap | 2021 Monaco Grand Prix | Pirelli - YouTube

Compare and contrast

F1 Classic Onboard: Senna On The Charge At The 1990 Monaco Grand Prix - YouTube

there's some justification with classics, but not today's cars, there is no connection to the axle, it is drive by wire and with servo assistance.

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1 hour ago, Olavstar said:

After a few laps I can say with the settings @BarryBL suggested (some minor tweeks to my liking) it feels better, at least it stays consistent for now. Thanks again! Although the FFB still has some issues with the streght it is a lot better to play now. Hope it stays like this and the issue there is will be solved quickly so FFB is as optimal as it gets!

High force feed back settings make the motor work harder (obviously) if it works harder it gets hotter , if it gets hotter it is less efficient and eventually the inbuilt protection of the hardware will shut it down to protect itself and so you have zero FFB feeling until the motor cools down to a safe level and then it will return to its safe operating temperature and the thermal protection switch allows the motor to be used again.
I don't have problems in any driving game with FFB fade and always have very high FFB settings (120 etc)  using a T300RS base the reason for this is that I modified it , first modification I made was make a cowling/tunnel that goes from the fan to the motor so that air goes directly to the motor not just moved about generally in the chasm of the freely vented wheelbase casing , I made this cowling out of a yoghurt pot as it is perfect for the job and fixed it to the fan casing with zips ties , you have to take the casing apart to do this , Next cut a hole in the top casing directly above where the motor heat sink fins are located , this hole needs to be the relevant size that is suitable for an externally mounted 5V fan with its own PSU plug to an external power supply ( make a gasket to fit between the fan casing and the wheelbase casing for maximum extraction efficiency ) the fan is positioned so it is sucking air/heat upwards   away from the motor and drawing cooler air from below toward the motor. Regardless of whether or not the FFB signals in F1 2021 are problematic finding a way of improving the cooling of the FFB Motor just makes sense , I race F1 races of 1.5 hours with no FFB fade whatsoever . I have Assetto Corsa  Cranked right up on FFB levels and that has serious FFB unlike The pathetic feeble output of F1 titles and I never have FFB  Fading  on that ........... My car engine keeps overheating and losing power , have you got any coolant in the radiator , No , I can't be bothered to put any in , well carry on having the overheating issue then , OK I'll do that and just keep on complaining when it happens . Sounds like a plan.

Edited by Exasperated
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As I mentioned in my post above im on PS5 but i use the PC to keep the wheel up 2 date. Thats why I also attach the ffb settings from the thrustmaster settings.

My ffb is only fading in f1, on ps5 i also play gt sport and even after hours my ffb doesnt fade at all.... on pc i play ac and iracing and it is also not fading there!

1.JPG

2.jpg

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20 hours ago, JohnnyTapia said:

As I mentioned in my post above im on PS5 but i use the PC to keep the wheel up 2 date. Thats why I also attach the ffb settings from the thrustmaster settings.

My ffb is only fading in f1, on ps5 i also play gt sport and even after hours my ffb doesnt fade at all.... on pc i play ac and iracing and it is also not fading there!

1.JPG

2.jpg

Have you modified your wheelbase to improve the cooling and then tried playing the game on PS5,   I haven't got a PS5 as I am waiting a few years while they fix all the problems that are inevitably surfacing in the MK1 versiion

 

............. as reported on here by many people  the 2021 game has got many problems including wheel base incompatibilities and FFB issues etc and on and on , this FFB problem on this particular version of the game on various platforms  is probably a missing  signal and not actually fade caused by overheating , if it is fade caused by overheating then this can be solved by providing more cooling to the motor .

Just to clarify , what I said relates to FFB fade caused by an overly hot motor that ends in the motor being shut down by a thermal switch.

IF the problem isn't actually FFB fade then this of course will not apply

If a person does not want to help themselves by taking action themselves  to address a problem then the problem will exist and nothing will change.

 

 

 

 

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