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Camber can be either positive or negative, that's the issue. You can add more positive camber (go from 1.5 to 2.0) or add more negative camber (say from -2.0 to -2.5).

F1 cars always run with negative camber, so you're adding (negative) camber by increasing the absolute number.

Camber is measured from the top of the tyre. Picture yourself leaning between two tyres, with your hands on top of them. If you push them away from you (positive camber), you're pointing them like this \_/ and the more you push, bigger is the number. That never happens with F1 cars.

If you were to pull the top of the tyres towards you, making them more like this /_\, now you've got yourself a proper F1 car. Since the top of the tyre is moving closer to the chassis, we indicate this by representing them on the negative side of the scale.

0 camber would be |_|.

+2 camber would be \_/ and it is more camber than +1.

-2 camber would be /_\ and it is more camber than -1.

Weird, I know, but you'll soon get used to it. Pretty much only cars running on oval circuits have some degree of positive camber.

 

Edited by marioho
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40 minutes ago, F1Superfan said:

For setting the tire camber, which do we go by, the number or the word?

because -3.5 is maximum camber, but it says it's minimum.

 

 

I am not sure, what's the english explanation in the game of camber, but if you maximise camber (<-- to left) then tires should give you more grip in fast corners but low grip when accelerating and in low speed corners. 

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1 hour ago, F1Superfan said:

For setting the tire camber, which do we go by, the number or the word?

because -3.5 is maximum camber, but it says it's minimum.

 

 

Go by the word  not the number .....this is explained in the ask David Greco thread in the F1 2020 forum . If you are talking about negative values then minus 1 is more than minus 10 because its nearer to a positive value in this particular case. ...whoever designed the menu decided that they would represent it that way instead of just putting more and less and so this confuses your average person who does not understand how  1 can be more than 10 if it is negative as it doesn't seem to make sense . Google an explanation of negative values and it may become clearer to you.

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+10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 -1 -2 -3 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -9 -10

                                                                               <  this is how -1 is more than -10 in this particular case because -1 is closer to +1 so becomes  more 

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camber is measured by the angle, of which -3.5 degrees is LARGER than -2 degrees,  ergo -3.5 is MAX and -2 is MIN.

-3.5 should be the number beside the word MAX, and -2 should be the number beside MIN

f1 cars NEVER use positive camber, so there is no need to bring that information to the table.

 

thanks for the replies, having found the f1 2020 chat about setups Greco says to go by the numbers and not the words... therefore -3.5 (all the way left) is max camber and all the way right is the min camber.  maybe codies should swap the graphic around, so MIN and MAX are on the correct sides.

Edited by F1Superfan
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2 hours ago, Exasperated said:

Go by the word  not the number .....this is explained in the ask David Greco thread in the F1 2020 forum . If you are talking about negative values then minus 1 is more than minus 10 because its nearer to a positive value in this particular case. ...whoever designed the menu decided that they would represent it that way instead of just putting more and less and so this confuses your average person who does not understand how  1 can be more than 10 if it is negative as it doesn't seem to make sense . Google an explanation of negative values and it may become clearer to you.

This is not right. I actually asked the question to David in that thread last year. After a bit of confusion he said go by the number, not the words (as others have said here).

-3 camber is more NEGATIVE camber than -2 (even if not a greater value in mathematical terms).

It’s really poor menu design in my view. For this item the -3.5 should be the max setting, not the min - given it is the MOST negative camber you can select.

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2 hours ago, kalamazoo123 said:

This is not right. I actually asked the question to David in that thread last year. After a bit of confusion he said go by the number, not the words (as others have said here).

-3 camber is more NEGATIVE camber than -2 (even if not a greater value in mathematical terms).

It’s really poor menu design in my view. For this item the -3.5 should be the max setting, not the min - given it is the MOST negative camber you can select.

 

I just went through the Dave Greco stuff and you need to go and re read very carefully what he said because people are confused by what he inferred in his reply

July 9th 2020 he said "No no no I did not say that (in reference to a confused) I say it is math , because of being a negative number , of course the more negative number is on the left , we mark min on the left , max on the right. . It is a NEGATIVE number - 3.5. is less than -2.5 . The number is what you have to look at (Meaning the negative number , because he is not confused by Negative numbers being greater when they are less/smaller) is pretty simple guys." 

Based on what I just read then what I posted was correct in relation to what David Greco said and this relates to the way they have chosen to describe camber for the game  David Greco Says that -3.5 is less than -2.5 .........Simples.

 

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3 hours ago, F1Superfan said:

camber is measured by the angle, of which -3.5 degrees is LARGER than -2 degrees,  ergo -3.5 is MAX and -2 is MIN.

-3.5 should be the number beside the word MAX, and -2 should be the number beside MIN

f1 cars NEVER use positive camber, so there is no need to bring that information to the table.

 

thanks for the replies, having found the f1 2020 chat about setups Greco says to go by the numbers and not the words... therefore -3.5 (all the way left) is max camber and all the way right is the min camber.  maybe codies should swap the graphic around, so MIN and MAX are on the correct sides.

I quoted what he said in my post above , it seems you have a different understanding of what he said because you are taking the line 'The numbers are what you have to look at ' to mean what you think that means not what he clearly explains what that means. ie The numbers are NEGATIVE.

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To clarify what David Greco said , the most negative camber is added when the slider is on the Right even if that is -2.5       and the wheel tyre unit sits flatter to surface of the track ( more surface contact of the tyre ,more friction )  when the slider is over to the left even if that is -3.5 

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Hey @Exasperated, we were all there.

Forget the "-" sign. It is there only to represent the direction of the angling, i.e. if you're angling the top of the tyre towards the chassi (negative) or away from the chassi (positive). When David says to look at the numbers he means exactly that, look at the absolute numbers – meaning the distance from 0, whatever the direction.

So -3 is more camber than -2 and more camber than -1 and so on. They are, respectively, 3 degrees away from neutral (zero), 2 degrees away and 1 degree away, but towards the chassi.

The same goes to the other side of the scale, +3 is more camber than +2 which in turn is more camber than +1.  Again, 3 degrees away from neutral, 2 degrees away and 1 degree away, but away from the chassi.

Camber angle, (a) Negative (b) positive (c) Thrust | Download Scientific  Diagram

The numbers are the camber angle (β). Look at absolute values, not at the minus sign as that is simply an indicator of the direction of the camber, to put it blunt. 

Edit: So clear thigs up:

 

1 hour ago, Exasperated said:

To clarify what David Greco said , the most negative camber is added when the slider is on the Right even if that is -2.5       and the wheel tyre unit sits flatter to surface of the track ( more surface contact of the tyre ,more friction )  when the slider is over to the left even if that is -3.5 

That's exactly the confusion he was addressing in the linked post:

Quote
Quote

No, David kindly confirmed that all the way to the right is max negative camber (even if the numbers don't make sense this way).

no no, I did not say that. I say it is math, because of being a negative number, the more negative is of course on the left. we work Min on the left, Max on the right.

It is a NEGATIVE number, -3.5 is less than -2.5

The numbers is what you have to look at, is pretty simple guys

 

Edited by marioho
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To clarify, when David Greco was saying I misunderstood it was him explaining that max negative camber was on the left because that’s the way the UI works. The minimum mathematical number is on the left. In this case though the minimum mathematical number is the maximum negative camber you can set.

Dont worry, it took me a while to get it too! The explanations and the use of the words max and min in the UI definitely need to be improved. Im actually really surprised CM didnt do this this year as it was clear how much confusion  it caused in that thread last year. Would have been such a simple fix...

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1 hour ago, marioho said:

Edge Hey @Exasperated, we were all there.

Forget the "-" sign. It is there only to represent the direction of the angling, i.e. if you're angling the top of the tyre towards the chassi (negative) or away from the chassi (positive). When David says to look at the numbers he means exactly that, look at the absolute numbers – meaning the distance from 0, whatever the direction.

So -3 is more camber than -2 and more camber than -1 and so on. They are, respectively, 3 degrees away from neutral (zero), 2 degrees away and 1 degree away, but towards the chassi.

The same goes to the other side of the scale, +3 is more camber than +2 which in turn is more camber than +1.  Again, 3 degrees away from neutral, 2 degrees away and 1 degree away, but away from the chassi.

Camber angle, (a) Negative (b) positive (c) Thrust | Download Scientific  Diagram

The numbers are the camber angle (β). Look at absolute values, not at the minus sign as that is simply an indicator of the direction of the camber, to put it blunt. 

Edit: So clear thigs up:

 

That's exactly the confusion he was addressing in the linked post:

 

So what you're saying is that maximum negative camber in the game is 3.50 or set to the left on the slider even though it says minimum in game settings ; meaning the top of the tyre is the nearest it can be to the tub  in the game and that the furthest the top of the tyre can be set away from the tub or the minimum negative camber setting  is -2.50 even though in game it is stated as the maximum negative camber setting with the slider to the right  because you deem absolute numbers make  3.50 more than 2.50 am I right in thinking that. ..............or to simplify you are saying that max should be on the left and min on the right because the made a mistake labelling  it .

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Sorry, @Exasperated. I think I did not fully understand what you wrote in this last post. I'll try to clarify even so.

In the suspension geometry tab you have two rows for camber

  • Front Camber [-3.50° <-> -2.50°] Min -3.50 – -2.50° Max
  • Rear Camber [-2.00° <-> -1.00°] Min -3.50 – -2.50° Max

There is no such a thing as positive camber (tyres leaning away from the chassis) in F1. That's for oval racing like Indy and Nascar only. In F1 we work exclusively with negative camber, where the top of the tyres lean towards the chassis. The number being positive or negative means only the direction of the inclination of the top of the tyre, if away or towards the chassis.

You should consider only the absolute values in this case, the modulus of the number.

|x|

So a -3.50° (note the degree symbol "°") represents more camber than -2.50° as:

|-3.50| > |-2.5|

The same goes to the rear axle camber setting, where you can set a camber, meaning lean the top of the tyre closer to the chassis, anywhere between 1° and 2°. Since we're leaning the tyres towards the chassis, it is indicated by the minus "-" sign, so -1.00° and -2.00°. In this case, -2 will mean more camber than -1, as in:

|-2.00| > |-1.00|

It is just that the way the graphical interface of the game works, negative numbers are always to the left and positive numbers are always to the right. That said, whatever the racing sim it is you're playing, negative degrees in camber will always represent negative camber (top of the tyre leaning towards the car) and positive degrees will always denote positive camber (top of the tre leaning away from the car).

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2 minutes ago, marioho said:

Sorry, @Exasperated. I think I did not fully understand what you wrote in this last post. I'll try to clarify even so.

In the suspension geometry tab you have two rows for camber

  • Front Camber [-3.50° <-> -2.50°] Min -3.50 – -2.50° Max
  • Rear Camber [-2.00° <-> -1.00°] Min -3.50 – -2.50° Max

There is no such a thing as positive camber (tyres leaning away from the chassis) in F1. That's for oval racing like Indy and Nascar only. In F1 we work exclusively with negative camber, where the top of the tyres lean towards the chassis. The number being positive or negative means only the direction of the inclination of the top of the tyre, if away or towards the chassis.

You should consider only the absolute values in this case, the modulus of the number.


|x|

So a -3.50° (note the degree symbol "°") represents more camber than -2.50° as:


|-3.50| > |-2.5|

The same goes to the rear axle camber setting, where you can set a camber, meaning lean the top of the tyre closer to the chassis, anywhere between 1° and 2°. Since we're leaning the tyres towards the chassis, it is indicated by the minus "-" sign, so -1.00° and -2.00°. In this case, -2 will mean more camber than -1, as in:


|-2.00| > |-1.00|

It is just that the way the graphical interface of the game works, negative numbers are always to the left and positive numbers are always to the right. That said, whatever the racing sim it is you're playing, negative degrees in camber will always represent negative camber (top of the tyre leaning towards the car) and positive degrees will always denote positive camber (top of the tre leaning away from the car).

Yes I understand that there is no positive camber used on a F1 car front or rear and both settings are negative camber settings in game as denoted by -3.50 to -2.50 but one of those negative angles means that the top of the tyre is closer to the tub than the other before it gets to bolt upright and then the top of the tyre starts leaning outward or into positive camber position ,  what I want to know is from what you said before regarding  using absolute numbers that makes -3.50 in the game the maximum amount of camber available set by putting the  slider to the left contrary to it saying  that it is the minimum amount of negative camber available in game .... Do you think that this is correct or not , just YES or NO is the answer I am looking for really. If the answer is yes then  Less is More which is something Ive always adhered to in my life . Looking forward to clearing these misnomers up and moving on to something more worthwhile like staring out of the window. or extracting some earwax or whatever. Happy racing , Regards Your Uncle Bingo.

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In short the UI is cr@p and has always been cr@p for this!

 

MIN and MAX relate to the mathematical number. -3.5 is the lowest number; -2 is the highest number in maths terms, hence MIN and MAX.

 

-3.5 however is the max camber that can be applied and by this we mean the top of the tyre is at it's closest to the chassis (most pointing in): /-\

-2 is the least camber that can be applied, i.e. the furthest from the chassis and closest to being perpendicular to the track (pointing upwards): |-|

 

 

Edited by martbloke
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6 minutes ago, martbloke said:

In short the UI is cr@p and has always been cr@p for this!

 

MIN and MAX relate to the mathematical number. -3.5 is the lowest number; -2 is the highest number in maths terms, hence MIN and MAX.

 

-3.5 however is the max camber that can be applied and by this we mean the top of the tyre is at it's closest to the chassis (most pointing in): /-\

-2 is the least camber that can be applied, i.e. the furthest from the chassis and closest to being perpendicular to the track (pointing upwards): |-|

 

 

I've sacked David Greco he is obviously a member of the conservative partly , You start Monday , we will be able to understand how to operate the game now you're in charge of communications. I always used to set the larger number of degrees for more lean as it makes sense that way until I read this negative numbers palava and assumed I had been running the wrong set ups in the past but now its clear for all to see that greater numbers is irrelevant and David Greco was just being negative about the whole situation, BTW you're start salary is £280,000

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5 hours ago, Exasperated said:

I quoted what he said in my post above , it seems you have a different understanding of what he said because you are taking the line 'The numbers are what you have to look at ' to mean what you think that means not what he clearly explains what that means. ie The numbers are NEGATIVE.

Ignore this . I was having a mid wife crisis  or something ............brain death ?........I do'nt think so.

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It’s great when Codies can’t even e plain it clearly.  However most people in here have got it correct.  However an issue with the f1 2020 game game meant that it was often more important to have the camber set to the min to have better traction out of the corner which really isn’t the way they set up f1 cars.  I haven’t started properly playing around with setups in f1 2021 yet so I can’t tell you if there is an OP set up preference in this years game.

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3 minutes ago, Acerees said:

It’s great when Codies can’t even e plain it clearly.  However most people in here have got it correct.  However an issue with the f1 2020 game game meant that it was often more important to have the camber set to the min to have better traction out of the corner which really isn’t the way they set up f1 cars.  I haven’t started properly playing around with setups in f1 2021 yet so I can’t tell you if there is an OP set up preference in this years game.

I agree, but only to a point. It could have been made more unambiguous, but other racing sims display the camber setting with exactly the same slider, where you add more negative camber by moving leftwards and reduce negative camber by moving rightwards. Like in Assetto Corsa:

image.png.b4c238bf040d3ba2b9a5ade11f2b1de5.png

Or iRacing:

image.png.e2e4ce5c444035fa642b3fbef6465226.png

Really, it's just the "Min" and "Max" words that are confusing.

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1 minute ago, marioho said:

I agree, but only to a point. It could have been made more unambiguous, but other racing sims display the camber setting with exactly the same slider, where you add more negative camber by moving leftwards and reduce negative camber by moving rightwards. Like in Assetto Corsa:

image.png.b4c238bf040d3ba2b9a5ade11f2b1de5.png

Or iRacing:

image.png.e2e4ce5c444035fa642b3fbef6465226.png

Really, it's just the "Min" and "Max" words that are confusing.

100% however they don’t have wording that describes the wrong thing in the setup menu.  I’m an experienced pc racer and despite knowing what it should do I found that the actual effect vs the desired effect has results that didn’t make sense and couple that with the confusing messages in this forum meant that I still have doubts they have actually programmed it correctly.

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