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Does dirty air exist in this game?


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It does. Try Barcelona Turn 3. You can take it flat when driving alone, but following another car the understeer forces you to lift. It is probably less than in real life, but that is a good thing, otherwise we would'nt have much overtakes as well.

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2 hours ago, DRTApophis said:

Short answer, yes

To be precise, 15% downforce reduction + 10% drag reduction under slipstream. 

Well that’s pretty low.

found this:

According to the rulemakers, research conducted while creating the new regulations found that current F1 cars only have around 55% of their downforce when running one car length behind another.

When presenting the new regulations, the rulemakers claimed that this number could rise to 86% on a 2022 car, with 94% of the downforce available at three car lengths (compared to 68% at present) and 98% when seven car lengths behind (79% currently).

But these are baseline percentages that represent an estimated current value based on data supplied to the FIA by an F1 team, and a 2022 prediction that does not take into account how teams will interpret the new rules.

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1 hour ago, AlexTT said:

To add to this:

when behind other cars, the front tyres tend to get too hot also. Doesn’t happen in 2021 game?

I don't think the drag reduction effect is significant enough in the game to cause those understeering issue that heats up the front tires. 

1 hour ago, AlexTT said:

Well that’s pretty low.

found this:

According to the rulemakers, research conducted while creating the new regulations found that current F1 cars only have around 55% of their downforce when running one car length behind another.

When presenting the new regulations, the rulemakers claimed that this number could rise to 86% on a 2022 car, with 94% of the downforce available at three car lengths (compared to 68% at present) and 98% when seven car lengths behind (79% currently).

But these are baseline percentages that represent an estimated current value based on data supplied to the FIA by an F1 team, and a 2022 prediction that does not take into account how teams will interpret the new rules.

Yea it's a bit on the low side, I remember reading an article about drag reduction under slipstreaming condition for an F1 is about 20% too, but I guess the low value in the game evens them out in some way. 

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20 minutes ago, DRTApophis said:

I don't think the drag reduction effect is significant enough in the game to cause those understeering issue that heats up the front tires. 

Yea it's a bit on the low side, I remember reading an article about drag reduction under slipstreaming condition for an F1 is about 20% too, but I guess the low value in the game evens them out in some way. 

Just hear when drivers tell it’s impossible to follow cars because the tyres get to hot due to the dirty air. 

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14 hours ago, AlexTT said:

Well that’s pretty low.

found this:

According to the rulemakers, research conducted while creating the new regulations found that current F1 cars only have around 55% of their downforce when running one car length behind another.

When presenting the new regulations, the rulemakers claimed that this number could rise to 86% on a 2022 car, with 94% of the downforce available at three car lengths (compared to 68% at present) and 98% when seven car lengths behind (79% currently).

But these are baseline percentages that represent an estimated current value based on data supplied to the FIA by an F1 team, and a 2022 prediction that does not take into account how teams will interpret the new rules.

Yes it’s low but codemasters have said they don’t want to add so much  dirty air that it makes it impossible to overtake as it’s a game after all and they need to find a balance between real life and games as it’s not a true simulation game.

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I kind of wish games would take advantage of not being afflicted with the same restrictions that the real world is.

Dirty air harms racing. Getting rid of it (or at least the option to) in the virtual world means the racing in the game can be better than reality. So why wouldn't we want the choice to do that?

Same with circuits. Everyone seems to want absolute realism and a perfect 1:1 reflection of real life, but real circuits are affected by safety concerns and need big run offs and have awful chicanes like the Rettifilo in Monza.

In a game, there's no risk of actual injury from crashing (unless you're a direct-drive wheel owner...), so let us fly through Curva Grande at 330km/h+ if we want to and go without the god-awful chicanes!

This is my simracing dream.

Edited by Blent
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6 minutes ago, Blent said:

I kind of wish games would take advantage of not being afflicted with the same restrictions that the real world is.

Dirty air harms racing. Getting rid of it (or at least the option to) in the virtual world means the racing in the game can be better than reality. So why wouldn't we want the choice to do that?

 

Exactly. When drivers such as Lewis and Ric and even Nando (when he retired), have openly said recently that dirty is the one thing that actually has made them contemplate retiring because it harms the racing so much, it is baffling that people want it in the game.

Yeah I get realism but most people play a game for fun and its no fun racing online dealing with, as the F1 boss Brawn calls 'the single worst thing about modern F1' 

It should have been nerfed in a game 

Edited by TomAAA
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10 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

Yes

I tried with a pc mod that I made myself to experience different values of dirty air and slipstream. It was interesting but I wouldn't define it fun, I liked the experience but I wouldn't enjoy it in a game long term

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10 minutes ago, Henricus12 said:

I tried with a pc mod that I made myself to experience different values of dirty air and slipstream. It was interesting but I wouldn't define it fun, I liked the experience but I wouldn't enjoy it in a game long term

It should be the “official” game, so why should we have it any better then the real deal? 

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5 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

It should be the “official” game, so why should we have it any better then the real deal? 

Because all in all it is still a game, therefore supposed to be fun and for our enjoyment. They are trying to get rid of dirty air in real life too with the new regulations, as per my experience dirty air in game is a good compromise between a loss of performance but still having fun racing

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6 minutes ago, Henricus12 said:

Because all in all it is still a game, therefore supposed to be fun and for our enjoyment. They are trying to get rid of dirty air in real life too with the new regulations, as per my experience dirty air in game is a good compromise between a loss of performance but still having fun racing

Yeah well, we don’t drive under the new rules don’t we? 
 

people love the realism of not beeing able to follow lap after lap in the front person’s gearbox because the tyre’s suffer from it when you do it too long, so then there’s strategy coming around the corner. When do I attack? Not “keepsittinginhisgearboxwithoutanyissuesunpunishedwithoutthenegatives” 

People already have more then enough assists to make your life easy. The people without assists do it for the realism. 

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1 hour ago, Henricus12 said:

About dirty air, would you really enjoy losing 45% of your downforce when following another car for the sake of realism?

May be not that extreme, but I'm currently using 25% downforce reduction + 25% drag reduction on pc and it worked pretty well, I felt the slipstream is probably slightly stronger than real life (Though Daniel did reached something like 370kph on Spa with slipstream sometime ago I think), so I think may be I would tune it down to about 20-22% for the most realistic result (probably the sweetspot of realism x action).

My front tires now definitely wear out faster than just 15% downforce reduction, but still not as extreme as real life I think.

One extra note, I've also tried the 10% downforce reduction + 20% drag reduction recipe from some other mods, and I felt even though it might had provided way more actions, yet I think it was less enjoyable because of how unrealistic it felt (Hope 2022 proves me wrong, though LOL)

Edited by DRTApophis
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53 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

Yeah well, we don’t drive under the new rules don’t we? 
 

people love the realism of not beeing able to follow lap after lap in the front person’s gearbox because the tyre’s suffer from it when you do it too long, so then there’s strategy coming around the corner. When do I attack? Not “keepsittinginhisgearboxwithoutanyissuesunpunishedwithoutthenegatives” 

People already have more then enough assists to make your life easy. The people without assists do it for the realism. 

I would be totally up for it being increased if there was a option to turn the 'dirty air' effect off altogether too.

The best of both worlds would be to offer a more realistic dirty air effect but also allow us to choose how badly it affects cars so we can customise our experience.

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26 minutes ago, DRTApophis said:

May be not that extreme, but I'm currently using 25% downforce reduction + 25% drag reduction on pc and it worked pretty well, I felt the slipstream is probably slightly stronger than real life (Though Daniel did reached something like 370kph on Spa with slipstream sometime ago I think), so I think may be I would tune it down to about 20-22% for the most realistic result (probably the sweetspot of realism x action).

My front tires now definitely wear out faster than just 15% downforce reduction, but still not as extreme as real life I think.

One extra note, I've also tried the 10% downforce reduction + 20% drag reduction recipe from some other mods, and I felt even though it might had provided way more actions, yet I think it was less enjoyable because of how unrealistic it felt (Hope 2022 proves me wrong, though LOL)

I hoped 2015,2016,2017,2018,2019 and 2020 also proved me wrong😆

my problem is my love for the sport and I always buy them because else my collection isn’t complete😂

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4 hours ago, AlexTT said:

I hoped 2015,2016,2017,2018,2019 and 2020 also proved me wrong😆

my problem is my love for the sport and I always buy them because else my collection isn’t complete😂

Yes, I do understand your point of view! I play with no mechanical assists as well and working on getting rid of the racing line. The best would be that at least in single player we could adjust the amount of dirty air in game. I like realism too but I think that too much realism will not please all players. Or course I am just a player but all of us do need to compromise, I would love it to be fully simulative but still happy that this year they gave us even more options for us to customize our gameplay

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On 7/25/2021 at 8:28 PM, DRTApophis said:

Short answer, yes

To be precise, 15% downforce reduction + 10% drag reduction under slipstream. 

is this correct or your opinion / estimation? 

Hmm an option to increase the dirty air effect would be cool yes, but I guess, it is to complicated to progamme that easy, as we think. I mean the AI is programmed to work well with this kind of dirty air effect we have and are still addicted to have DRS for overtakings. Thats why we rarely see overtakes in rain. If there would be an option to increase dirty air, there wouldn't be any overtakes anymore. In real life the drivers can react to this and drive different lines to avoid the dirty air of the front car. So if we want an option like this, then there should the AI be able to get along with this. So CM would have to programme to different AI depending on dirty air settings. I think this is more complicated, than we think. 

But overall I am really happy that we still have the effect of losing downforce. I can notice that in fast corners. And like that the Slipstream effect is not that strong like in f12019. Does anyone know how exactly the dirty air and slipstream was effected in the privious games? Maybe @DRTApophis?

Edited by DonBlanko
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25 minutes ago, DonBlanko said:

is this correct or your opinion / estimation? 

Hmm an option to increase the dirty air effect would be cool yes, but I guess, it is to complicated to progamme that easy, as we think. I mean the AI is programmed to work well with this kind of dirty air effect we have and are still addicted to have DRS for overtakings. Thats why we rarely see overtakes in rain. If there would be an option to increase dirty air, there wouldn't be any overtakes anymore. In real life the drivers can react to this and drive different lines to avoid the dirty air of the front car. So if we want an option like this, then there should the AI be able to get along with this. So CM would have to programme to different AI depending on dirty air settings. I think this is more complicated, than we think. 

But overall I am really happy that we still have the effect of losing downforce. I can notice that in fast corners. And like that the Slipstream effect is not that strong like in f12019. Does anyone know how exactly the dirty air and slipstream was effected in the privious games? Maybe @DRTApophis?

The value this year and 2020 is of 0.9 drag under slipstream and 0.85 lift, meaning that on the straights you lose a 10% drag when following (+10% top speed) but you also lose 15% downforce which has an effect when following in turns. I recall that in 2019 there was something like 0.83 or 0.85 under slipstream on the straights thus more top speed

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19 hours ago, AlexTT said:

It should be the “official” game, so why should we have it any better then the real deal? 

the only official thing is the team and driver names 😄

to the topic about dirty air in the game, i would say it depends on race length.

if you race a 100% the effect of dirty air should be nearly "the same" as in real.

if you race a 5 lap race (quick lobby race) the effect is ok how it is now in the game.

 

Generally I would wish we would have Sliders for these thing (dirty air, slipstream) also for AI sliders separated in:

pace, aggressiveness, strategy, wet weather pace, race starts...

 

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5 hours ago, DonBlanko said:

is this correct or your opinion / estimation? 

Hmm an option to increase the dirty air effect would be cool yes, but I guess, it is to complicated to progamme that easy, as we think. I mean the AI is programmed to work well with this kind of dirty air effect we have and are still addicted to have DRS for overtakings. Thats why we rarely see overtakes in rain. If there would be an option to increase dirty air, there wouldn't be any overtakes anymore. In real life the drivers can react to this and drive different lines to avoid the dirty air of the front car. So if we want an option like this, then there should the AI be able to get along with this. So CM would have to programme to different AI depending on dirty air settings. I think this is more complicated, than we think. 

But overall I am really happy that we still have the effect of losing downforce. I can notice that in fast corners. And like that the Slipstream effect is not that strong like in f12019. Does anyone know how exactly the dirty air and slipstream was effected in the privious games? Maybe @DRTApophis?

As Henricus12 said, those are the values of effect under slipstreaming condition in the game files, and the values are exactly the same as 2020. 

Last year I've tried to increase the dirty air effect to 30%, and the AI started to struggle a little to cope with the understeer in high speed corners and behave weirdly, so I'm assuming if CM ever decided to increase the effect of slipstream, then the AI will definitely need adjustments.

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1 hour ago, DRTApophis said:

As Henricus12 said, those are the values of effect under slipstreaming condition in the game files, and the values are exactly the same as 2020. 

Last year I've tried to increase the dirty air effect to 30%, and the AI started to struggle a little to cope with the understeer in high speed corners and behave weirdly, so I'm assuming if CM ever decided to increase the effect of slipstream, then the AI will definitely need adjustments.

Now i am curious: what exactly happened with the AI in your 30% dirty air tests that makes you calling their behaviour "weirdly"? 😄 

Edited by DonBlanko
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