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Setup tips for slippery curbs


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Yesterday my teammate (pad, TC off) and me (Fanatec wheel, TC off) had some problems in Spain in coop career in case of oversteer in turn 7 and 9. I know, corner 9 is quiet difficult this year, another racing line (using inner curbs) and smother use of throttle in corner exit on outside curb helped me there, even when it is stays dangerous there. 

But In turn 7 my friend had some problems with his rear. My expierence is, that driving with a controller is quiet good this year. I had a lot grip. 

But he lost his rear/spins very often in exit of turn 7. We tried with lower diff (throttle) and high downfornce wings. For more grip in slower turns (like this) we decided to use mid rear camber. Less camber could make it more difficult in fast corners, thats why we thought mid camber could be a good midway. More rear toe could help but the tires seem to wear a lot then. Other ideas there? Maybe someone with the same expierence in turn 7?

I read a post from BarryBL that increasing car height car could avoid that the underfloor hits the ground/curb what causes spinning. But we are not sure how extrem we should go. We had 3 6. We are unsure too, if a less stiff suspension would work here. Normally I make my suspension queit soft when I drive on a track where the curbs are aggressiv. We had 6 2 or 6 3. Maybe he should try 3 3 or 3 2? 

Maybe some of you have some solutions what helped you most in those cases. This is not a complaint-thread about dangerous curbs. I like the car handling at all, we just have to improve here and want to make the best out of it. 

We want to avoid using TC because in the previous games it was noticable slower in corner exit. In Bahrain he had no problems with pad with his rear. Here I had more problems with wheel, but it was drivable and okay for me. 

 

 

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Because of the layout of the track and specially the elevation changes, T7 is one of the trickiest. It is cambered for the most part, loading the outside tyres, but as you open up on corner exit on the right side of the track that camber is suddenly gone. That, and being uphill. This results in a tendency to oversteer on entry and mid corner and to understeer on corner exit.

In my opinion, this is all about driver input, not setup. With my "final" setup I can still screw up just as badly if I enter with too much throttle, steering lock, and ride at an angle over the kerbs on corner entry. 

If he's adamant on changing his profile, he needs to look for a stabler platform. All these features – corner camber, uphill, disruptive kerbs both on entry and exit – are messing with your grip by throwing the car balance all around.

The braking is done on a downhill stretch of the straight. If he is having too much oversteer when he goes in for the corner, that's because the rear is unloading too much and there's not enough weight on the rear tyres to keep them planted. That's fixable by shifting the brake bias backwards or by making the rear softer than the front (soften rear springs or stiffen the front).

Up to the midway point, it's an off-camber corner, as in tilted to the outside:

image.png.c7f75000621e6cfdfd9c0f06298a529d.png

In the pic that's a right side tyre for reference. The way to increase the contact patch of the rubber in an off-camber corner is to decrease the negative camber, making the wheel more upwards. He should reduce the camber one click on the side of the car that he is losing – front or rear.

Being a fairly mid-speed corner, he should shift the aero balance of the car to the end that is giving him the more trouble. If he is oversteering, either decrease front wing or increase rear wing. If he is understeering, it is the front of the car that needs to keep more weight, so either increase FW or decrease RW.

The key here is to not come in thinking he needs to "soften" this or "stiffen" that. He needs to tweak the car balance to counteract everything that the corner is doing to him without a great departure from the overall setup – again, the best approach to T7 is to be smooth on the inputs.

Mid-corner is probably what he's struggling with the most. In this phase he needs to focus on the anti-roll bars. To counteract the lateral forces at play he should stiffen the end of the car that is too dominant. So if he is oversteering, he should stiffen the front anti-roll bar or soften the rear anti-roll bar. If he is struggling with understeering, stiffen the rear anti-roll bar or soften the front. 

Yeah, too much work. And again, he can most definitely drive around whatever problems he is having just by being smoother and cleaner with his inputs. 

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Theres no need to turn on TC because the spin is not really by the transfer of power to the wheels, by the time TC kicks in hes already midspin. But, a smoother throttle can mitigate the kerb agressiviness.

In relation to setup i use very soft susps, i think 3 2? Something like that and 4 6 in height. I attack these corners thinking on how straight can i make the car be. Might not be the fastest, but ive been pretty stable on it

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@BarryBLwe need a built in telemetry tool to coach us or recommend setups. Without this, we are guessing. We need an AI engine to help Jeff recommend setups based on our driving style, but more importantly, articulate the Codemasters math built in the game. Are we hitting the floor? Are we not getting enough rotation? We are under steering turn 4 and 6 so recommended adjustments should be x. 
 

i get it, there are tons more important things to fix, but this add on can explain how the game works through directly engaging with the game. 

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100% what @ShelbyUSA said. Even if suggestions are a step too far, it would put the game in better standing to have some basic telemetry readings for laps and stints.

Bottoming out, balance (oversteer/understeer depending on the wheels slip angles), traction per corner of the car, load distribution per corner of the car and so on. All this data is already broadcasted by the game telemetry, but having to rely on external tools for even the basic stuff is too much.

Jeff loves to ask us to keep an eye on tyre temperatures. Hey, Jeff, why not you keep on eye on them while I keep an eye on the road? Then just present me with lap averages and min/max temps when I get back to the garage.

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@marioho I have been asking for this for years. You need to be a data sciencist   and then, a race engineer to translate those squiggly lines from the udp apps. Honestly, why not have jeff and team go the extra step and provide recommendations?  

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Yep. I guess that recommendations are hard to make, but at least a clear reading of what is going on with the car so that us players can make informed decisions.

Car balance, load transfer and distribution, and tire section temperature (outside, middle and inside sections on top of the carcass and surface temperatures we already have). That's crucial for suspension and suspension geometry settings.

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Or it makes a great opportunity to develop an app. However, and what made it hard to develop an app that is applicable and correlated directly to the game’s math was close to impossible. This was due to not knowing which attribute actually affected the car. For example, Codemasters logic didn’t directly related to real world physics. I can’t speak for F1 2021 yet, because it’s yet to be determined. Regardless, floor bumps did not effect the overall time vs today, it actually does 👏. This is partly had to do with Codemasters “backing”into lap times per circuit. For instance, an F1 shall not be faster than real world. And that is why we can go over a certain top speed regardless if we drop the aero, height and etc. basically, setups and “backing” into the lap times per circuit is the biggest issue. That being said, it would be nice if we actually know which math metric attributes affects the car so we can develop the app that actually works OR, bake this concept in the game to help us create setups that work with my driving style. Because we can’t analyze our setups without knowing the flavor of the year Codemasters F1 logic. 

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@mariohoand @ShelbyUSA, fully agree with you. In 2020 I was running really low ride heights and in 2021 I read they need to be higher - by how much I did not know. So I increased them a click or two and I was bottoming out a lot and crashing out - but silly me was thinking it was my camber or suspension stiffness. Would have been great if Jeff could advise of such; “you’re bottoming out and need to increase your ride height”. Ditto with tyre temps; “hey your setup is running too low on temps over our race strategy program, why not increase them” for example.

Would also be great if they had an inbuilt telemetry tool.

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17 hours ago, Monzie83 said:

@mariohoand @ShelbyUSA, fully agree with you. In 2020 I was running really low ride heights and in 2021 I read they need to be higher - by how much I did not know. So I increased them a click or two and I was bottoming out a lot and crashing out - but silly me was thinking it was my camber or suspension stiffness. Would have been great if Jeff could advise of such; “you’re bottoming out and need to increase your ride height”. Ditto with tyre temps; “hey your setup is running too low on temps over our race strategy program, why not increase them” for example.

Would also be great if they had an inbuilt telemetry tool.

I agree with that.. i think that Jeff would give some advice tips based in our setup made or Directions taked

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/31/2021 at 7:49 PM, Monzie83 said:

@mariohoand @ShelbyUSA, fully agree with you. In 2020 I was running really low ride heights and in 2021 I read they need to be higher - by how much I did not know. So I increased them a click or two and I was bottoming out a lot and crashing out - but silly me was thinking it was my camber or suspension stiffness. Would have been great if Jeff could advise of such; “you’re bottoming out and need to increase your ride height”. Ditto with tyre temps; “hey your setup is running too low on temps over our race strategy program, why not increase them” for example.

Would also be great if they had an inbuilt telemetry tool.

 

On 7/29/2021 at 10:06 AM, Blackmoon14 said:

dont be scared to go what feels like 'extreme' with ride height, move it up like 3 notches and see how that helps, ive definitely found it helps a lot with riding most kerbs

 

Yesterday we came to canada. Normally it is a good GP for us, we both like it. The curbs in the final corner were always hard and bumby, since I play F1 (over 10 years now). We knew that we had to be careful here. It is the wall of champion next to it. But we wondered about the the curbs in Sektor 2. Especially turn 9 was very bumby and made us crash both twice. We had car height of 4 6 and 4 7 and stiffs with 2 6 I guess. Have you made same expierences here? I don't want to complain about how the curbs are made in this game, I just want to challange them. I want to get over it and the best I can do is try to drive in an other way and to adjust my setup for getting save around the track. 

Do you have some advices here? How much do you increase the height when you have problems in corners like that? By the way our wings were 7 8 and 8 8. So the rear wings should give us enough downforce. I think my underfloor hit the curb there, but we are not sure if setting the height to 7 9 f.e. is the right way or if there are other tips. Maybe @marioho has also some tips. Like someone said, in F1 2020 we were able to drive with very low car height, thats why it is new to set the car height that high. 

It would be cool if we have a thread here, where other players could read how to set up the car for getting over difficult parts fot the track instead of complaining about everything. Maybe we can match some things up here. 🙂

Edited by DonBlanko
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@DonBlanko T9 is the last bit of the chicane after the bridge, right?

There are two kerbs there, a regular one and a significantly raised one - the orange kerb. As far as I know cars always avoid mounting those in real life.

If you put your inside front wheel over the raised kerb you should be relatively ok. The load of the car will be on the outside wheels, the right side. The left front will be quite light. Unless you're running with stiff anti-roll bars, in which case you should absolutely avoid placing any wheel over the orange kerbs.

The inside rear wheel is a different story. While unloaded, it is still receiving power from the engine - and a significant amount, depending of your differential settings and whether you're accelerating already. Just checked a Vettel onboard from 2019 and while his front left touches the orange kerbing, he positively avoid putting his rear on them.

Basically you shouldn't try to straddle, to mount the orange kerbing. Your floor will bottom out and, depending on your line and driving (and setup), you could easily lose it all.

Setup wise, increasing the rear toe will always help whispering calmness and pleasant thoughts to your car when it gets unsettled by kerbs. A softer spring, specially on the rear, will make it less of an unsettling experience of you put your car on those tall orange kerbs. And you should always take note of your sway bars when dealing with surfaces with such a height difference: stiff roll bars will not cope well when one of the wheels wants to compress the suspension that much when riding a sausage or steep kerb.

If your main issue is putting your rear wheel on them, rear toe is still king but maybe a quick adjustment of the differentials could help. You want to divert power to the outside wheel in here so that when the inside one goes over the orange kerb you're still good on traction. To do that it matters to know if you're on the throttle or not. If you're applying throttle, locking the on-throttle diff will accomplish that. If you're coasting, unlocking your off-throttle diff does the trick.

Now would I do all of these changes on my setup to deal with those orange kerbs? No way. I don't want to sacrifice a configuration that gives me good performance for the whole track just to deal with the orange kerbs. Specially with springs and roll bars, as they influence so much of the handling balance.

You're better off keeping away from the orange kerbs. Try to watch the instant replay whenever you have trouble in there and see if you did not mount it or at least put your rear wheel over them.

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Codemasters needs to do a lot of things. One of them is to show the difference in height when changing it in the garage. Either it’s 1/1 or 1/11 or 11/11, zero visual change. If you go over those unrealistic height on those curbs, you can’t just slowly go over or see a replay that your car is optimized for the track.
 

I guess they don’t want to make this game into a Sim node make this “game” playable. Zero clue. 
 

Honestly, Codemasters. Sim or Game? If game, make it drivable. Sim? Then, put some visual clues, or telemetry tools in the garage. 

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there is nothing you can do about that. As u said, even with high ride height the problem persists. Wait for the handling update, hopefully they will fix the broken kerbs. you will waste your time by playing too much with the setups. they dont make much sense anyway this year with the broken curbs.

Example: almost on all tracks the fastest tt setups have the highest tyrepressure. Even on tracks like Australia. While in real life, we know that the tyre pressure is very low on almost all tracks.

This has too be done in the game to counter the extremly soft suspension. And why do the fast drivers soften their suspension soo extreme?

To ride the broken kerbs.

 

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4 hours ago, marioho said:

@DonBlanko T9 is the last bit of the chicane after the bridge, right?

There are two kerbs there, a regular one and a significantly raised one - the orange kerb. As far as I know cars always avoid mounting those in real life.

If you put your inside front wheel over the raised kerb you should be relatively ok. The load of the car will be on the outside wheels, the right side. The left front will be quite light. Unless you're running with stiff anti-roll bars, in which case you should absolutely avoid placing any wheel over the orange kerbs.

The inside rear wheel is a different story. While unloaded, it is still receiving power from the engine - and a significant amount, depending of your differential settings and whether you're accelerating already. Just checked a Vettel onboard from 2019 and while his front left touches the orange kerbing, he positively avoid putting his rear on them.

Basically you shouldn't try to straddle, to mount the orange kerbing. Your floor will bottom out and, depending on your line and driving (and setup), you could easily lose it all.

Setup wise, increasing the rear toe will always help whispering calmness and pleasant thoughts to your car when it gets unsettled by kerbs. A softer spring, specially on the rear, will make it less of an unsettling experience of you put your car on those tall orange kerbs. And you should always take note of your sway bars when dealing with surfaces with such a height difference: stiff roll bars will not cope well when one of the wheels wants to compress the suspension that much when riding a sausage or steep kerb.

If your main issue is putting your rear wheel on them, rear toe is still king but maybe a quick adjustment of the differentials could help. You want to divert power to the outside wheel in here so that when the inside one goes over the orange kerb you're still good on traction. To do that it matters to know if you're on the throttle or not. If you're applying throttle, locking the on-throttle diff will accomplish that. If you're coasting, unlocking your off-throttle diff does the trick.

Now would I do all of these changes on my setup to deal with those orange kerbs? No way. I don't want to sacrifice a configuration that gives me good performance for the whole track just to deal with the orange kerbs. Specially with springs and roll bars, as they influence so much of the handling balance.

You're better off keeping away from the orange kerbs. Try to watch the instant replay whenever you have trouble in there and see if you did not mount it or at least put your rear wheel over them.

I don't know if we talk about the same curb. Nevertheless you have good points in your post ! Here is a video of what happened to me yesterday. The same happened to my teammate in our coop mode. And maybe you are right curbs like this should not get hit, no matter which setup I have. But it is very difficult to avoid these both curbs there. 

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26 minutes ago, DonBlanko said:

I don't know if we talk about the same curb. Nevertheless you have good points in your post ! Here is a video of what happened to me yesterday. The same happened to my teammate in our coop mode. And maybe you are right curbs like this should not get hit, no matter which setup I have. But it is very difficult to avoid these both curbs there. 

This is a good example, Codemasters. @BarryBL You can raise the floor 11/11 and there is no difference visually compared to 1/1.  We need Codemaster Telemetry Tools built in the game OR represent the setup changes in the game. OR, just make the game playable. In other words, just be blunt with the direction of the game. Because you can't have it both ways. Its frustrating. 

 

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For T7 you have to mount entry kerb completely, right on track limits, if you only catch a little of it, it is snap oversteer. If you avoid the kerb completely it is easier but too slow. And still oversteers.

 

For T9 you have to mount the inside kurb and get the car on the middle of the exit kerb. Keeping it in 6th gear helps.

T9 is easy with practice, but T7 and T2 are a bit too hard and random IMO.

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16 hours ago, ScaredDuck said:

I base my setups on these... his suspension settings imo are god like... they are setup for wheel but I find they work for pad https://simracingsetup.com/category/f1-2021-game/

This page is really not bad! But back to Spain: There are some sentences which made me confused.. based on what @marioho said in his first post here,  

 

On 7/28/2021 at 4:23 PM, marioho said:

...

Mid-corner is probably what he's struggling with the most. In this phase he needs to focus on the anti-roll bars. To counteract the lateral forces at play he should stiffen the end of the car that is too dominant. So if he is oversteering, he should stiffen the front anti-roll bar or soften the rear anti-roll bar. If he is struggling with understeering, stiffen the rear anti-roll bar or soften the front. 

...

   we should stiffen the front, if we have oversteer. The base of his advice is, stiffen the part of the car, which is too dominant. I really like that principle. So if my front is to quick in turning this can cause oversteer. There I have to stiffen the front ARB to "lower" the performance of the front a bit. I get it. ARB were always hard to understand for me. But when I look into the setup guide of your page its written: 

"I've setup the suspension at 2 and 5, and the anti-roll bars ever so slightly stiffer at 3 and 6. This will give you a soft car so you can ride over the kerbs without causing the car to react too badly. While the stiffer anti-roll bars and rear suspension will help you overall and real stability troughout the lap.

So the guide advices to stiffen rear anti roll bars more then the front. Won't this make the car even more oversteer and less stable? Based on the principle of Marioho's post. Based on this I would have make the ARB set to 6 1 f.e. oer 8 2 for reducing oversteer. The guide said with 3 6 we should have real stability throughout the lap. 

Maybe someone can explain? 

@ChicagoSeminole It is funny because I never had problems in T2 and 7. Okay maybe a bit oversteer in T7 but no problems with the curbs itself. I thought the same for T9. Thats why I really tried to hit the curb in T8, for getting the car well positioned for T9. Maybe my problem began there. Maybe I was a bit hard on that curb and made the car unstable for T9. But maybe I hit the orange curb there too. Difficult to say. 

Edited by DonBlanko
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@DonBlanko you're on the right track, mate! 

The thing with the ARBs and suspension as a whole is that you're setting the way your car will deal with all those G's when it's accelerating/braking (longitudinal forces) and turning (latitudinal forces). The piece that will eventually complete the puzzle for you is having in mind that the setup don't change the forces.

Load transfer is basically a product of the forces at play. When you're braking hard from a given speed or turning with a given speed, that's what will determine how much load will be transferred from one axle to the other or to one side of the car to the other. The total load won't change with your springs and ARBs, but your suspension will set how quickly or gently this transfer will happen.

That's why to cure e.g. oversteer on corner exit it is not simply a task softening the rear springs. Say you softened the rear for that reason but for another you ended up softening the front too. You went from 4-4 to 3-3. You'll probably still have oversteer on corner exit. "But didn't I soften the rear?" yes, you soften your suspension overall and this will have an effect on how the tyres will compress the torsion bars and move up and down relatively to the chassis, but you're main issue was that there wasn't much load sitting on the rear to give you the required grip to accelerate out of that corner at 4-4 suspension, and when you set your car to 3-3 the load distribution remained the same front-back, albeit in a softer overall setting.

So in that case moving either to 4-3 or to 5-4 would have addressed the oversteering in corner exit. You need a softer rear relatively to the front, and you accomplish that either by softening the rear or by stiffening the front. Which one should you choose?

That's where the advice to adjust the end that is prominent comes from.

On corner entry, you're braking on a straight line and then steering in. The load will be transferred to the front. So if you're having understeer on corner entry, between softening the front springs (and maybe the front ARB) or stiffening the rear, you'll have a better chance of hitting the mark and not screwing up other aspects of your performance by adjusting the front. If you were instead oversteering here, the same: stiffen the front springs (and maybe front ARB) instead of softening the rear first to see if it does the job.

On corner exit, you're straightening up your car and planting down on the accelerator pedal. If you're oversteering at this moment, you should soften the rear springs (and maybe rear ARB). Conversely if you're understeering, you need more load to sit on the front and you get that by stiffening the rear axle.

Both options, adjusting the front or adjusting the rear, will address the issue. It's just that you'll have a better change of only fixing the problem, not messing with other aspects of your ride, by adjusting the part of the car that is most prominent in that moment.

The anti-roll bars deal with latitudinal forces, those cornering G's that make the chassis roll to the sides. So though they will be working to counteract chassis roll on all kinds of corners and all moments you're going through a  curved path, these lateral forces are significant on high and medium speed corners. That's why the general advice is to adjust the ARBs when you're trying to fix handling issues that occur mid corner, when you're not significantly accelerating or braking. There your front and rear springs are somewhat stable, steady. They will still affect your load distribution front-rear, but what is really going on with your car right now is the load transfer from one side to the other. The mechanism that is working the most here are the sway bars. So if you want to fix your tendency to understeer mid corner, you should be softening the front or stiffening the rear ARB instead of messing with springs.

What do you try first? FARB or RARB? The general advice is the same, follow the load. If you're still fresh off the throttle, the load will most likely still be at the front half of the car so the FARB will have a bigger say in the balance. If the issue appears when you're past the apex and starting to reapply throttle, the load will be concentrated at the rear hald, so changes to the RARB will have a greater impact than the ones you do to the FARB.

To breakdown a corner, the suspension mechanisms working the most (excluding wings) would be these in the following order:

[straight braking] FS > [turning in] FS (+ FARB) > FARB (+FS) > [apex] RARB (+RS) > RS (+RARB) > [straight acceleration] RS

Again, you can fix oversteer on early turning in by softening the RS. It's just that the most relevant mechanism at that moment are the FS, so you'll have a better change of affecting only this early oversteer by stiffening the FS than by softening the RS. If you do the latter, you risk having an understeery car at corner exit, when the RS become the most prominent mechanism.

Any change you make reverberate through the whole system.

Now regarding the quote, he's describing the overall setup. What I've been talking here is what to do to fix handling issues one at a time, one corner at a time. He probably did the same, and now is explaining what he ended up with. 

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8 hours ago, DonBlanko said:

This page is really not bad! But back to Spain: There are some sentences which made me confused.. based on what @marioho said in his first post here,  

 

   we should stiffen the front, if we have oversteer. The base of his advice is, stiffen the part of the car, which is too dominant. I really like that principle. So if my front is to quick in turning this can cause oversteer. There I have to stiffen the front ARB to "lower" the performance of the front a bit. I get it. ARB were always hard to understand for me. But when I look into the setup guide of your page its written: 

"I've setup the suspension at 2 and 5, and the anti-roll bars ever so slightly stiffer at 3 and 6. This will give you a soft car so you can ride over the kerbs without causing the car to react too badly. While the stiffer anti-roll bars and rear suspension will help you overall and real stability troughout the lap.

So the guide advices to stiffen rear anti roll bars more then the front. Won't this make the car even more oversteer and less stable? Based on the principle of Marioho's post. Based on this I would have make the ARB set to 6 1 f.e. oer 8 2 for reducing oversteer. The guide said with 3 6 we should have real stability throughout the lap. 

Maybe someone can explain? 

@ChicagoSeminole It is funny because I never had problems in T2 and 7. Okay maybe a bit oversteer in T7 but no problems with the curbs itself. I thought the same for T9. Thats why I really tried to hit the curb in T8, for getting the car well positioned for T9. Maybe my problem began there. Maybe I was a bit hard on that curb and made the car unstable for T9. But maybe I hit the orange curb there too. Difficult to say. 

 

For T9, its like you have to shift to 7th gear right when the car is straightening out on that exit curb. Im no expert, but seems like the game rewards you for shifting at the right time or something. Like the final chicane at spain and suzuka. shifting up a gear right when you hit the last curb seems to straighten the car out. Don't know how people can play this game on automatic gears!

But if you have no issues at T2 or T7, only t9, then perhaps your setup is too understeery for T9? I use the simracing setups mentioned above, not sure if those are the same as the youtube videos, but the simracesetups youtube guy setups are very stable. 

Edited by ChicagoSeminole
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