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Please Fix The Kerbs


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For what it's worth, this thread is not a debate about whether a wheel or controller is the "correct" way to play.

They're both officially supported, therefore they're equally as valid and you can be just as fast on both if you put in the time and effort to learn the game's handling characteristics inside out.

 

Let's get back on-topic and talk kerbs 😉 

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@PJTierney this things are connected.

The 2021 Game might have realistic enough Curbs for Padusers, while for Wheelusers, this isnt the case. And the Reasons why have to be discussed. Some Users here arent aware of this hidden Assists the Padusers have.

And here is the Video from Limitless about what is "faster" when the User is the same Person.

 

 

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@d1ebels are you eventually going to offer more than a F1 2019 video from "maximum camber to the right" TRL Limitless as a counter to @Ialyrn or just dully insist on fabled assists favoring pad players? After their breakdown of what you got wrong this did not live up to expectations.

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yeah my bad. I better trust your medicore skills opinions, and in your case, your opionion simply based on the pad 😄 😄

This issues mutliplies when you try to be very fast on this game. You just give away that you dont try to be fast, you try to collect post on this forum.

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This seemed to fly right over your head. I'm not fitted with a wheel but we're equally fitted with a keyboard. There's nothing stopping you from contributing to the community in any way or showing how other users got things wrong. Or we plebe are using assisted keyboard with extra downforce?

The thread has swayed left and right but the matter at hand is still the game physics and kerbs. If you don't mind setting aside for a moment your inability to refute how the game could simulate physics differently for pad and wheel users, I doubt anyone would mind you getting back to the issue and sharing your take on how the kerbs are done wrong in this game. Hopefully backed with experience in other sim racing games or better yet real life driving – assuming you do use a real wheel on top of your gaming one – instead of internet streamers' comments. 

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ok i am out of this, cause you call a esportsdriver and teammanager who has thousands of hours in the f1 games a "internet streamers comment"

That clearly indicates what you are trying to do here.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

You may have a point re. other inputs although this is much less relevant to non-racing vehicles. We could perhaps take what gamers using controllers are capable of as a counter-argument though?

Everyone growing up using wheels to drive vehicles makes it very hard to change, which I think makes it very hard to judge if either may be inherently more 'natural'.

Everyone growing  up knowing that people  sit in a driving seat in a car hasn't made it hard for people to change as a lot of people now drive using a TV camera stuck to the cars exterior and a lot of people haven't found it hard to drive a car using thumb sticks on a hand held remote pad as a lot of people never drove a real car and so have no idea what it actually  feels like so what is natural to a person in the way that they would drive a vehicle is whatever it is that a person is used to , Any way blah blah ................BACK ON TOPIC , Kerbs and how to fix them.

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@d1ebels the way you put it it's like TRL Limitless is in the same level of James Baldwin, Jarno Opmeer or Jimmy Broadbent.

This is not a dig at him, but it's a injury from your part to guys with real driving experience like the others I mentioned. TRL may be a top notch gamer on a sim arcade title like F1, but the guy to this day is clueless about what goes on with a F1 car. Like "maximum rear toe" will give you a "very very responsive" car and that "minimum camber" (which for him is putting the slider to the left) will give you a "quite unstable" car that "cannot cope with downforce". Though admitted that's partially on the game poor interface, it just shows how many parts gamer and how many parts motorsport enthusiast he is.

And again, not a dig at TRL Limitless. Or you, for that matter. Codies' F1 is a simcade and the best one at that, hands down. There's no other title in the industry that manages to please both casuals and sim racers as F1 games and I do not feel like I need to reiterate how much I admire that, every other post I'm gushing about the franchise accessibility features and onboarding. So, nope, not at a dig at you or TRL.

I just don't really think that guy has what it takes to offer valuable insight on how racing kerbs should affect a F1 car.

The game should have done a better job at introducing this push to unflatten kerbs and varying grip surfaces. I've said it already but a toggle on the Simulation settings for [Curbs: Reduced | Realistic] would be great to please both audiences and with time maybe even you would come to appreciate the tall order of simulating real F1 physics in a video game instead of acting up like a sour user on an internet forum.

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8 hours ago, PJTierney said:

For what it's worth, this thread is not a debate about whether a wheel or controller is the "correct" way to play.

They're both officially supported, therefore they're equally as valid and you can be just as fast on both if you put in the time and effort to learn the game's handling characteristics inside out.

 

Let's get back on-topic and talk kerbs 😉 

Sorry - if a T-cam controller driver could achieve same times as a cockpit dd wheel driver then something would be very wrong ! 
yes Tv/cam controller drivers should have fun with the game -but …….

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11 minutes ago, Shark2Racing said:

Sorry - if a T-cam controller driver could achieve same times as a cockpit dd wheel driver then something would be very wrong ! 

I really don't see why it would be. 

What do you think about the kerbs though?

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Personally, for me kerbs are quite "hit and miss" at times. In Bahrain, I could well use the kerbs and not be afraid of spins or anything, while Spain... Yuck. Even in F1 2020 I had troubles with Turn 2 inside kerb (touch to spin out) and Turn 9 was tricky usually, but this year, I'm VERY afraid to even touch them in Spain, as it usually is almost instant spin. There are probably better examples, but I honestly feel that the kerbs need major rework for the next game (heck, ALL TRACKS need an actual refresh, some tracks are most likely using models dated back to 2015 or earlier...), and as for this game... I guess I'll have to wait and see until the performance patch comes out (whenever it comes out), as it should change the car balance a bit I think.

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On 8/20/2021 at 11:44 AM, d1ebels said:

Ok Marioho, let me get this straight:

You have thousands of posts in the Codemaster forums, and you dont even have a wheel?

And then you try to tell people that the Curbs are not broken? Hahaha. Good One!

Buy a wheel, play this game, and come back here and try to tell people the same

The world has enough problems with people being negative. Why you chose to attack Marioho, I don't know. Like you, he's just a guy who likes to get a break from reality and play a racing game.

Maybe you don't realize it, but your comment did come across as hostile, perhaps even demeaning.

There sure seems to be a lot of people who don't have problems with the curbs. It's possible that people who are wanting to drive on the limit and want to just throw their car around with no regard to physics, don't like the results.

I've never driven an F1 car just like nearly everybody here. But, I've watched enough F1 for many years to know that curbs can be dangerous.

If, in real racing, curbs can spin the greatest drivers in the world, why do people feel like they should be able to abuse them here and get away with it?

Surely, somewhere there is a hardcore arcade game where people can fly over curbs with impunity.

I'm really happy that F1 2021 is not that game.

Please, let's all be kind in expressing our opinions.

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I definitely feel like the game is heading back into the territory of kerbs more or less autospinning you. It is possible to work around this and avoid kerbs but it seems silly after designing years of games where players were motivated and driven to use the kerbs to be as fast as possible and can be a difficult thing to 'unlearn'. The kerbs in the older F1 games were never really a problem for me until I learned to attack the kerbs in the newer ones so... yeah...

 

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Like many others I’m sure I’ve been trying to improve at Bahrain this week so I had a look at the two videos below which compare the current game to Max Verstappen’s pole lap this year. As you’ll see, on this track the fastest times still seem to be possible running significantly more off track than is realistic, although it’s more a case of straddling curbs that driving on them more. As a general comment I’m in favour of the game pushing us towards more realistic lines.

Real life (sorry this won't embed but the link should work):

 

 F1 2021 game:

 

 

Edited by Ultra3142
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1 hour ago, Ultra3142 said:

Like many other I’m sure I’ve been trying to improve at Bahrain this week so I had a look at the two videos below which compare the current game to Mas Verstappen’s pole lap this year. As you’ll see, on this track the fastest times still seem to be possible running significantly more off track than is realistic, although it’s more a case of straddling curbs that driving on them more. As a general comment I’m in favour of the game pushing us towards more realistic lines.

Real life (sorry this won't embed but the link should work):

 

 F1 2021 game:

 

 

I’ve been saying this for years, but it’s still possible to go more off track to increase your turn in radius and take more speed with you in corners, which is just stupid. I saw a video on Spain where there’s a pretty hard bump when you go to far off track. 
 

IMO tcam and driving more off line and off track for a bigger corner radius to gain faster times is cheating. Real drivers don’t sit on the Halo, and they keep the car where it belongs.
 

it’s just ridiculous and a disgrace that it’s still possible to set times by driving off track this way. 
 

but it also says everything about the people exploiting this to get fast times. 
 

I’d rather do it legit and how it’s supposed to be, on the blacktop between the lines, in cockpit view. I don’t care if I’m not the fastest that way, at least I’m not exploiting track limits or tcam as a crutch to be fast.

 

That’s also why I CAN’T and WON’T take Esports seriously. If they can’t drive how it’s supposed to be, with maximum realism by using cockpit cam and keeping the car where it belongs, it’s just impossible to take “official esports” seriously in whatever way whatsoever. It’s a joke.

Edited by AlexTT
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2 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

Like many other I’m sure I’ve been trying to improve at Bahrain this week so I had a look at the two videos below which compare the current game to Mas Verstappen’s pole lap this year. As you’ll see, on this track the fastest times still seem to be possible running significantly more off track than is realistic, although it’s more a case of straddling curbs that driving on them more. As a general comment I’m in favour of the game pushing us towards more realistic lines.

Real life (sorry this won't embed but the link should work):

 

 F1 2021 game:

 

 

Very clear from that in game footage that the track limits need a little tweak. A few times they are very clearly have all 4 wheels over the white lines.

You do bring up a very valid comparison that I was also planning on doing, mainly because I see people keep using Jarno Opmeer as the full authority on what is happening with the kerbs and track side issues. Which is kind of interesting when you really think about it, as they funnily enough do not drive their E-sport lines in the real life Formula Renault.
 

And their F1 2021 line from a few weeks ago -


Lets compare that to Lewis Hamiltons onboard from the F1 2021 Spanish GP.
 

You have to ask yourself why Jarno doesnt use his E-Sport line in a real car, and why Lewis doesnt use a similar line for his laps in a real F1 car. Its the elephant in the room that people seem to forget about when it comes to racing games and the lines that are fast in game that are never used in reality. It all boils down to the video game effect.

If you are wondering what the video game effect is, its the lack of fear. The lack of consequencies for making mistakes. The ability to do things that would be considured dangerious and too risky in real life. No risk of hurting someone if you crash, no risk to life or limb. The ability to restart if something goes wrong. Ultimatly, a reset button. The risk vs reward margin is a lot larger in the virtual world that it is in reality.

The lines people use in pretty much any racing game, they are considured too high risk in reality. Racing drivers are pretty fearless, within reason. But they are not stupid. A wrecked car is a lost race, a possible stay in the hospital, a possible loss of their seat if it happens too often. Especially when it comes to open wheel race cars like the Formula Renault that Jarno has experiance racings, and F1 cars. They are far easier to upset, as they have very tight tollerences in their suspension setups. A small disruption to the balance and aerodynamic flow of the car in a corner can send a driver right into a tire wall. And kerbs can do just that.

The fact of the matter is, people will do whatever it takes in a video game to be fast. And if the game allows it, they will use it. It doesnt matter if its F1 2021, Forza Motorsport, GT Sport, iRacing, ACC, Raceroom, Dirt Rally. Its all the same. If there is a way to cut time out of a lap, people who compete at the very top will use any advantage they can.

Is it right or wrong? Well, that is for the individual to decide for themselves. Personally, I am all for consequensies being added into racing games, and if that means making racing games match reality more closely; then it gets a massive thumbs up from me.

What I am seeing in F1 2021 with regards to the kerbs, that is the virtual world beginning to match reality a little bit more.

As an added bonus, here is how TRL limitless drives the same track in F1 2021 -
 


The F1 2021 footage you can find from all these Esport/league racers shows pretty much the same thing, the kerbs can still be used in a hell of a lot of places. Not just at Spain, but on any track in the game. Once they adapt to this years game and the handling changes made, the start of F1 2021 and their complaints about the kerbs will begin to get quieter.

P.S @Ultra3142 By the way, not having a go at you. I just used your post as a jumping off point for mine, since you also showed IRL footage vs the game. We are bot pretty much making the same point, I just wanted to expand on it a bit more.

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In videos where Jarno is describing how to get the fastest in-game time he himself frequently observes that a line isn't realistic.

I don't off hand recall any specific comments Jarno has made re. the in-game kerbs. I'd be interested to know what he does think if anyone can link to anything where he talks or writes about this?

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As TRL Limitless was referenced above, I thought I'd share that he comments on controller vs wheel from about the 15 to 18 minute points in the video from yesterday below. Spoiler: he doesn't say it's easy to go faster on a controller.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

As TRL Limitless was referenced above, I thought I'd share that he comments on controller vs wheel from about the 15 to 18 minute points in the video from yesterday below. Spoiler: he doesn't say it's easy to go faster on a controller.

 

 

Great find, and interesting to see that they echo some of the points i made to @d1ebels
yesterday when they brought up TRL Limitless. 

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5 hours ago, Ialyrn said:

Very clear from that in game footage that the track limits need a little tweak. A few times they are very clearly have all 4 wheels over the white lines.

You do bring up a very valid comparison that I was also planning on doing, mainly because I see people keep using Jarno Opmeer as the full authority on what is happening with the kerbs and track side issues. Which is kind of interesting when you really think about it, as they funnily enough do not drive their E-sport lines in the real life Formula Renault.
 

And their F1 2021 line from a few weeks ago -


Lets compare that to Lewis Hamiltons onboard from the F1 2021 Spanish GP.
 

You have to ask yourself why Jarno doesnt use his E-Sport line in a real car, and why Lewis doesnt use a similar line for his laps in a real F1 car. Its the elephant in the room that people seem to forget about when it comes to racing games and the lines that are fast in game that are never used in reality. It all boils down to the video game effect.

If you are wondering what the video game effect is, its the lack of fear. The lack of consequencies for making mistakes. The ability to do things that would be considured dangerious and too risky in real life. No risk of hurting someone if you crash, no risk to life or limb. The ability to restart if something goes wrong. Ultimatly, a reset button. The risk vs reward margin is a lot larger in the virtual world that it is in reality.

The lines people use in pretty much any racing game, they are considured too high risk in reality. Racing drivers are pretty fearless, within reason. But they are not stupid. A wrecked car is a lost race, a possible stay in the hospital, a possible loss of their seat if it happens too often. Especially when it comes to open wheel race cars like the Formula Renault that Jarno has experiance racings, and F1 cars. They are far easier to upset, as they have very tight tollerences in their suspension setups. A small disruption to the balance and aerodynamic flow of the car in a corner can send a driver right into a tire wall. And kerbs can do just that.

The fact of the matter is, people will do whatever it takes in a video game to be fast. And if the game allows it, they will use it. It doesnt matter if its F1 2021, Forza Motorsport, GT Sport, iRacing, ACC, Raceroom, Dirt Rally. Its all the same. If there is a way to cut time out of a lap, people who compete at the very top will use any advantage they can.

Is it right or wrong? Well, that is for the individual to decide for themselves. Personally, I am all for consequensies being added into racing games, and if that means making racing games match reality more closely; then it gets a massive thumbs up from me.

What I am seeing in F1 2021 with regards to the kerbs, that is the virtual world beginning to match reality a little bit more.

As an added bonus, here is how TRL limitless drives the same track in F1 2021 -
 


The F1 2021 footage you can find from all these Esport/league racers shows pretty much the same thing, the kerbs can still be used in a hell of a lot of places. Not just at Spain, but on any track in the game. Once they adapt to this years game and the handling changes made, the start of F1 2021 and their complaints about the kerbs will begin to get quieter.

P.S @Ultra3142 By the way, not having a go at you. I just used your post as a jumping off point for mine, since you also showed IRL footage vs the game. We are bot pretty much making the same point, I just wanted to expand on it a bit more.

It's simply a case of the risk vs. reward is too low in the game. I can guarantee you that everybody in real life would be taking the same lines if it were as low risk and high reward as it is in the game.

In real life, the deterrent is that these surfaces are a lot more slippery, so you would lose time under both braking and turn-in, which you don't in the game because the grip levels are simply too high - not to mention the very real possibility of lock-ups which would destroy your race due to the nature of the tyres. In the game, you just don't lock up here, and in the rare cases where you do, you lose maybe 1% tyre wear and you carry on - no flatspots, no carcass showing, again unlike real life.

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Taking the cue from @Ho3n3r, it's fitting to call back to this comment from Daniel Ricciardo on the state of sim racing games:

“If I go back a bit of time where, even things like kerbing and grass, it was all just very flat. Through the controller, you wouldn't get any shock or bounce over a kerb. All the tracks felt the same and it didn't really capture undulations and things like that, so there's a lot more feel now.”

The push towards "unflattening" kerbs and increasing the grip gamut for the varying track surfaces was present in the release trailers for the game already.

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For any newbie reading about this , people discuss the game on here from many different setups , different consoles , PC setups , differing Frame rates ,  different controllers but it appears as if everything is on default settings and everyone is experiencing the same feel when playing the game ........this is not the case , the game is many different versions depending on every setting that you adjust in the games menus and each setting change is a personal preference thing. Don't listen to people who try to tell you its all the same no matter what the settings , they talk bxxxxxxs

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The curbs most definitely need sorting. They were mostly excellent last game imo, but now.... good lord.

There is no way most of them should be as icy as they are... or auto-spin the car (how the hell is that even still a thing?)... or hell, some of them even have landmines in them now.

Edited by Bankai3987
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