V2 Physics Discussion

[griev0r 15]

It seems like feedback/opinion of the new V2 physics is spread out over multiple threads, let's make one to post our thoughts so it's easier for the devs to see.

I only had a couple hours last night to play, and I spent it all in the 2001 Subaru, drove Greece and Finland can't comment on tarmac yet but I will post again when I get more time with it.  First impressions for me are very very good, last night was the most fun I've ever had in a rally game/sim...ever.  The car felt more 'natural' in how it reacted, and even with a bit less grip it felt easier to drive cause it seemed to do exactly what I was trying to do through the wheel/pedals.  Even un-upgraded, I had a much easier time with hairpins on gravel.  The car didn't bog down to a crawl mid-turn needing a clutch kick everytime, which is a huge improvement.  Watching the replays the car also looks more realistic/believable.  How it can take high speed corners sideways, landing a big jump and rebounding back up, when you fly air born over a crest sideways how the car lands.

 So yeah, overall in my little time with it I'm extremely impressed.  After I get the 2001 cars upgraded I plan to spend some time in the Fiesta to see the difference cause I have a huge amount of hours behind the wheel of that car.

[GusPerez 0]

V2 physics = Arcade + asistencia. It is a step back. This is not the way

[bogani 764]

Gravel is brilliant. Tarmac is another story. Grip wise it is an improvement, but as other people have said it feels like there is center pivot in play.

[Klogg4 0]

GusPerez said:

V2 physics = Arcade + asistencia. It is a step back. This is not the way

Come on man what's wrong with you??

[enamel 0]

I spent about an hour with the Focus, and if this car is an indication of how v2 physics are going to be, I am really happy with it.

The first thing I noticed is how effortless it was to pitch the car into a corner and maintain a big controlled slide. The car felt more nuanced in a slide, I could determine when I was losing the front and let off a bit to get the front to bite, then bang on the throttle to get the back end to come around more. Overall I felt like I could control a slide with the throttle like I hadn't before. In Group B, where I spend most my time with 4WD cars, with a fully upgraded car it was a lot of work to get a big throttle induced slide going. The Focus was a different story, not only did throttle induced slides feel totally easy like I would expect, but I felt like I had the feedback to sustain and control it. I even spun the car out by giving it too much throttle on a 90 deg right hander, and that type of slide was impossible for me before, it always felt like every car was much too planted to do a half-donut on purpose, let alone my accident due to too much throttle.

The Focus is also very responsive and controllable. It really responded to input in a more predictable way, and when it went wrong it was always the case of me overdriving or ignoring pace notes. I never had the feeling that I lost control over the car and could not correct, which is how I have felt many times before.

Yes, the car felt lighter, but it felt more like how I would expect a lightweight, high horsepower hatchback to feel. Snappy and responsive, and when you put your foot in it, you go sideways and throw gravel!

I am looking forward to digging into it deeper and trying some of the RWD cars. I haven't tried tarmac, so I can't speak to that, plus my favorite tarmac car (F2) has not had a pass yet, so it would be hard for me to directly compare v2.

Overall tho after an hour with the Focus, I think this is a big improvement and has really hit a sweet spot for me.

[KevM 44]

I didn't get what people were describing as crab steer until i tried the Dailies there in the Focus.  The car is rear-steering like a forklift, on gravel

[Tom9876 0]

Your V2 physics update is indeed deeply impressive!

Just wanted to say thank you Codemasters for your hard work with this never seen/heared/experienced before stunning result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngzv2GmiHAk

[sgspenceley 0]

I did every stage last night and enjoyed the experience using Mini, because I own a little 1968 Mini so know what it's like to drive quickly.

New Focus & Subaru are really great to drive! 

I love the fact that when you lift your foot off the throttle the car no longer has really strong engine braking. You now must correctly use the brakes. I think Germany was the most fun with the updated physics.

The most fun I have had in Dirt Rally! Awesome update... 

[Imjoemang 0]

I think that video posted shows exactly whats wrong with the physics.  At the :22 second mark the car is moving way to fast to make that corner like that.   Even the best tires and stability control in the world would be able to keep the car on the road at those speeds.  Looks like im watching a video from some sort of high speed rail or something.

[Mike555 0]

I just finished Germany in Impreza WRC 2001, and I really do like how the cars are behaving on tarmac now. I belive there is a little less grip now, as I was able to go sideways into a corners simply by using pure car horse power. Since now it was rather hard, cars felt glued to the tarmac.

As few of you already pointed out, gravel feels really great now. I'm not sure tough if Finnish gravel shouldn't be a just little bit more loose, and less grippy. 

[function9 0]

I don't know if it's the reduction in downforce or other changes, but it feels like these v2 cars get too much air. With the Fiesta on Kontinjarvi, whether it's with the default setup or custom ones, probably about 3/4 of the time, by the time I take the yellow house jump I have a puncture just from jumps. Peculiar, as it always seems to be a rear left puncture. Watch onboards of Ouninpohja. From the "3 right" at the junction leading up to the yellow house jump, and the series of crests after the jump, cars aren't flying all over the place like they are in the game. In game, between the junction and the jump there are two other serious jumps that do not happen in real life. Another that comes to mind on Kontinjarvi is before the bridge, there's a "flat crest" I believe, it's quite a big drop in game. Not so much in real life.

Same with "Gina" jump in Germany, with the mk2 you can easily clear 50+ meters now. I don't know if it's the record, but a quick search yesterday, the longest jump I could find there was Block back in '11 in a Fiesta who went 52m. 

[AphDburn 0]

function9 said:

I don't know if it's the reduction in downforce or other changes, but it feels like these v2 cars get too much air. With the Fiesta on Kontinjarvi, whether it's with the default setup or custom ones, probably about 3/4 of the time, by the time I take the yellow house jump I have a puncture just from jumps. Peculiar, as it always seems to be a rear left puncture. Watch onboards of Ouninpohja. From the "3 right" at the junction leading up to the yellow house jump, and the series of crests after the jump, cars aren't flying all over the place like they are in the game. In game, between the junction and the jump there are two other serious jumps that do not happen in real life. Another that comes to mind on Kontinjarvi is before the bridge, there's a "flat crest" I believe, it's quite a big drop in game. Not so much in real life.

Same with "Gina" jump in Germany, with the mk2 you can easily clear 50+ meters now. I don't know if it's the record, but a quick search yesterday, the longest jump I could find there was Block back in '11 in a Fiesta who went 52m. 

I couldn't agree with this more.

the way the cars handle around corners feels fantastic, but when you get to jumps/crests/bumps it's just to light. It's especially noticeable on Finland and imho ruins the flow of the stages. If you take a group A car around them it flows nicely and feels fanstastic. A way to keep what you've done with the steering/handling but adjust the way the car handles bumps and jumps would be an awesome combo. 

[gheeD 15]

function9 said:

I don't know if it's the reduction in downforce or other changes, but it feels like these v2 cars get too much air. With the Fiesta on Kontinjarvi, whether it's with the default setup or custom ones, probably about 3/4 of the time, by the time I take the yellow house jump I have a puncture just from jumps. Peculiar, as it always seems to be a rear left puncture. Watch onboards of Ouninpohja. From the "3 right" at the junction leading up to the yellow house jump, and the series of crests after the jump, cars aren't flying all over the place like they are in the game. In game, between the junction and the jump there are two other serious jumps that do not happen in real life. Another that comes to mind on Kontinjarvi is before the bridge, there's a "flat crest" I believe, it's quite a big drop in game. Not so much in real life.

Same with "Gina" jump in Germany, with the mk2 you can easily clear 50+ meters now. I don't know if it's the record, but a quick search yesterday, the longest jump I could find there was Block back in '11 in a Fiesta who went 52m. 

As far as the downforce and cars jumping goes i agree its a bit extreme currently, feels like they are bouncing all over the place especially when driving really fast like I do. But for your example of the yellow house jump in real life the cars will brake a little bit just on edge of the hill to make the car take the jump a bit better and also reduce the jump distance so they can be on throttle going forward faster. So I found best way is to like in real life brake a bit before those big jumps to align the car better for it, not blow a tire and maybe even get bit more speed as your on the ground and throttling faster.

But yeah definitely agree something is quite off with the aero, or maybe its just that ouninpohja on steroids..

[ramPage16 0]

I agree with function9, AphDburn(Aphelion), and Gheed. The V2 cars corner and slide well on dirt/gravel and that feels nice. The cars do feel more intuitive to drive. My issue is that the car feels much lighter than before. It's like I'm driving a tin can and every bump has a huge effect on the car. Whatever change was made, it's as if the cars' masses were lowered, or gravity was turned down or something. This is hugely apparent when you look at this video I've made. The v2 change was drastic. V2 also has made cars faster than they were previously due to less resistance I suppose.

http://youtu.be/0lPzX03tDgQ
The Fiesta STILL has more hang time than the lighter, more powerful Peugeot which is travelling 16mph faster.

As a side note, and I'm just being picky here, but the Finland stages feel like 10% larger scale than they're supposed to be.
Compare the house jump in Dirt Rally to Kris Meeke's onboard. If you pin your throttle on the house jump you'll bust your tire or radiator almost every time. Kris Meeke pins it and it's no big deal.

[griev0r 15]

You comparing a V1 car to a V2, the V1 physics had much more aero... of course it won't jump as far the gravity is pushing it back down faster.  As far as the second part with Kris Meeke I don't see much of a difference, its a massive jump in both videos.  So what if the stage is modeled 100% correct down to the millimeter, it's still fun and challenging as hell.  Stop complaining!!!

I really feel bad for sim racing developers, no matter what they do everyone will not be happy.  I was an iRacing member since the beta, and I'll never forget how the players were.  They would complain about something, iRacing would fix it, then the people that liked how it was would be up in arms.  It seems like a lose-lose situation I can't imagine being a dev for a sim racing game.  With Dirt Rally it was "too much grip" until this last update, now it's not enough, they can't win.  I for one love the V2 physics, I feel more confident and the cars feel more intuitive to me. 

[PiotrAS191 0]

Imjoemang said:

I think that video posted shows exactly whats wrong with the physics.  At the :22 second mark the car is moving way to fast to make that corner like that.   Even the best tires and stability control in the world would be able to keep the car on the road at those speeds.  Looks like im watching a video from some sort of high speed rail or something.

Excatly, I think there is still too much grip, just compare this to this.

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

When driving V2 cars on gravel the feel is absolutely outstanding when you drive it nicely, "frontend first". 

But.. When you step over the limit, take a big slide, steer too much, brake too much, etc. the physics just falls off the cliff.


A few examples:
1. Overshoot the turn-in, resulting turn-in oversteer and the car just stop sideways. Immediately. For some reason the cars are not able to slide at wide angles. Easy to notice on the downhill corner after "Ouni's house".

2. In real life when you steer too much, you'll get understeer. For some reason I think that the more you steer, the better turn-ability you have. Like there are no slip-angle calculations at all. (Yeah, I know that on rally tyres the optimum slip-angle can be past 10 degrees.)

3. I think cars have way too much mechanical grip. On lower speed corners it feels like there's an infinite lateral and longitudinal grip. Cars does not resist to turn because of the locked differentials etc. For sure the coast lock is not very aggressive but you still need to lock it reasonably tight to keep the car stable under braking. That should also make the car a bit understeery on lower speed corners.

4. When jumping too long, there are no real punishment. It seems like bottoming out doesn't exist in DiRT. For sure modern WRC cars have very high-end hydraulic bump-stops but still there is a limit how hard you can land. In real life your dampers would be broken or coming through the bonnet because of the stress for the upper damper joint.

These things can distarct your immersion a lot. Because you have to drive it unrealistically in order to be as fast as possible.

Let's not finish it yet. Keep up the good work, Codies. :)

[bogani 764]

ramPage16 said:

I agree with function9, AphDburn(Aphelion), and Gheed. The V2 cars corner and slide well on dirt/gravel and that feels nice. The cars do feel more intuitive to drive. My issue is that the car feels much lighter than before. It's like I'm driving a tin can and every bump has a huge effect on the car. Whatever change was made, it's as if the cars' masses were lowered, or gravity was turned down or something. This is hugely apparent when you look at this video I've made. The v2 change was drastic. V2 also has made cars faster than they were previously due to less resistance I suppose.

http://youtu.be/0lPzX03tDgQ
The Fiesta STILL has more hang time than the lighter, more powerful Peugeot which is travelling 16mph faster.

As a side note, and I'm just being picky here, but the Finland stages feel like 10% larger scale than they're supposed to be.
Compare the house jump in Dirt Rally to Kris Meeke's onboard. If you pin your throttle on the house jump you'll bust your tire or radiator almost every time. Kris Meeke pins it and it's no big deal.

It might just come down to that the elevations in the game are a bit off. If they would include some more punishing damage that would also mean you actually had to handle thd jumps by not going flat over them. If real drivers kept their foot down over all the jumps like we do now, they would break the car rather quickly.

[Zheiko 0]

So, while I partially agree with griev0r, that being dev is pretty hefty task, especially during open development of game that is in early beta staging.

In reaction to the Physics. One thing that makes me scratch my head, is how many pleased players are there. And seriously, even I was super pleased with how much fun it was to drive the new V2 cars. It is so easy and enjoyable, that it almost feels ARCADE.

I thought, and will always think, that driving AWD car on 3m wide gravel road between trees should be scary as hell experience. Currently, in this stage, its fun. Dont take me wrong, I am enjoying it, but realistically, is this still a SIM that we are all so much wishing for? Or are we really somewhere deep down wishing for fun arcadish-sim, that goes a little bit away from real physics for the sake of being fun?

Now, if you put two and two together, main lead designer left few weeks ago, and was replaced. Suddenly, we get Physics rework, that suddenly makes cars handle easier. This seems to me like pretty easy Codemasters move, into how to get more players on-board.

On the other hand however, I do own 2002 Bugeye Impreza WRX in real life, sure its FAR from WRC 2001 version in the game, BUT driving on Tarmac on Germany, I did feel that it was in a way similar to what I do experience every day on my way to work.

I would just like the Devs to keep their direction right. I would love to receive as much simulation as possible. I do not care its not gonna be fun for masses, it will be fun for me. Dont follow EA in this to get masses of players, be here for us, small communities, that will follow you to grave, if you deliver us what we want. And this is the problem, Question worth 60k dollars. What do we actually want?

[Tom9876 0]

griev0r said:

I really feel bad for sim racing developers, no matter what they do everyone will not be happy.  I was an iRacing member since the beta, and I'll never forget how the players were.  They would complain about something, iRacing would fix it, then the people that liked how it was would be up in arms.  It seems like a lose-lose situation I can't imagine being a dev for a sim racing game.  With Dirt Rally it was "too much grip" until this last update, now it's not enough, they can't win.  I for one love the V2 physics, I feel more confident and the cars feel more intuitive to me. 

From the perspective of an enduser you can feel this as well. For a player it's sometimes really difficult holding back the emotions when something seems to be wrong or bugs him so hard. In this situation it‘s very easy to hurt somebody althought he doesn‘t want to.

I am really astonished about the development in this game. With the v2 physics and the Subaru Impreza the devs recreated the world of RBR in a way that i had not expected.

Maybe the v2.0 physics just need some little finetune to v2.1 and then they have it.

@Devs: You did an excellent job! Keep it up! And... let the sun shine :)

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

Making things more real and predictable is not arcadish move. Previously cars were acting really bad. That's why it was so hard. Hard is not equal to simulation.

Now there's just a bit too much mechanical grip and things like "point of no return" while sliding is missing. That makes driving a bit easier than it should be. You can always correct even you go way too wide or you don't have to fight to make the car to turn-in, etc... In general you don't get punished if you do stupid things.

[bogani 764]

Zheiko said:

So, while I partially agree with griev0r, that being dev is pretty hefty task, especially during open development of game that is in early beta staging.

In reaction to the Physics. One thing that makes me scratch my head, is how many pleased players are there. And seriously, even I was super pleased with how much fun it was to drive the new V2 cars. It is so easy and enjoyable, that it almost feels ARCADE.

I thought, and will always think, that driving AWD car on 3m wide gravel road between trees should be scary as hell experience. Currently, in this stage, its fun. Dont take me wrong, I am enjoying it, but realistically, is this still a SIM that we are all so much wishing for? Or are we really somewhere deep down wishing for fun arcadish-sim, that goes a little bit away from real physics for the sake of being fun?

Now, if you put two and two together, main lead designer left few weeks ago, and was replaced. Suddenly, we get Physics rework, that suddenly makes cars handle easier. This seems to me like pretty easy Codemasters move, into how to get more players on-board.

On the other hand however, I do own 2002 Bugeye Impreza WRX in real life, sure its FAR from WRC 2001 version in the game, BUT driving on Tarmac on Germany, I did feel that it was in a way similar to what I do experience every day on my way to work.

I would just like the Devs to keep their direction right. I would love to receive as much simulation as possible. I do not care its not gonna be fun for masses, it will be fun for me. Dont follow EA in this to get masses of players, be here for us, small communities, that will follow you to grave, if you deliver us what we want. And this is the problem, Question worth 60k dollars. What do we actually want?

Main lead designer left? You talking about Lee?

[SamRWD 2]

Nahkamarakatti said:

When driving V2 cars on gravel the feel is absolutely outstanding when you drive it nicely, "frontend first". 

But.. When you step over the limit, take a big slide, steer too much, brake too much, etc. the physics just falls off the cliff.


A few examples:
1. Overshoot the turn-in, resulting turn-in oversteer and the car just stop sideways. Immediately. For some reason the cars are not able to slide at wide angles. Easy to notice on the downhill corner after "Ouni's house".

2. In real life when you steer too much, you'll get understeer. For some reason I think that the more you steer, the better turn-ability you have. Like there are no slip-angle calculations at all. (Yeah, I know that on rally tyres the optimum slip-angle can be past 10 degrees.)

3. I think cars have way too much mechanical grip. On lower speed corners it feels like there's an infinite lateral and longitudinal grip. Cars does not resist to turn because of the locked differentials etc. For sure the coast lock is not very aggressive but you still need to lock it reasonably tight to keep the car stable under braking. That should also make the car a bit understeery on lower speed corners.

4. When jumping too long, there are no real punishment. It seems like bottoming out doesn't exist in DiRT. For sure modern WRC cars have very high-end hydraulic bump-stops but still there is a limit how hard you can land. In real life your dampers would be broken or coming through the bonnet because of the stress for the upper damper joint.

These things can distarct your immersion a lot. Because you have to drive it unrealistically in order to be as fast as possible.

Let's not finish it yet. Keep up the good work, Codies. :)

Another post I can fully agree. I generally wanted to write exactly the same.

[BrySkye 14]

Zheiko said:

Now, if you put two and two together, main lead designer left few weeks ago, and was replaced. Suddenly, we get Physics rework, that suddenly makes cars handle easier. This seems to me like pretty easy Codemasters move, into how to get more players on-board.

Er, Lee was the community manager. Not a programmer or designer. He talked to the community as opposed to making the game.

Plus, if you think the physics could be re-worked and released in a matter of weeks, you're very very very much mistaken.

[gheeD 15]

Nahkamarakatti said:

Making things more real and predictable is not arcadish move. Previously cars were acting really bad. That's why it was so hard. Hard is not equal to simulation.

Now there's just a bit too much mechanical grip and things like "point of no return" while sliding is missing. That makes driving a bit easier than it should be. You can always correct even you go way too wide or you don't have to fight to make the car to turn-in, etc... In general you don't get punished if you do stupid things.

Amen! The game is great and lots of fun (otherwise i wouldnt have spent 220 hours and counting playing it) but physics are still very incomplete. 

And as far as players being pleased with the physics, well i think it tells alot that something like half of the players play with a controller, rather than a wheel. You cant really see whats missing if you dont drive with a wheel