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V2 Physics Discussion

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Because none of us has a real understanding of rally car physics.
Only actual rally drivers could give an informed opinion on if the physics feel right or not.

So your saying it's all subjective and opinions then?

:p

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No.Evilsmurf said:

Because none of us has a real understanding of rally car physics.
Only actual rally drivers could give an informed opinion on if the physics feel right or not.

So your saying it's all subjective and opinions then?

:p

No.

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We need our weight back, the adjustment for V2 needs to be dialled in through a different force.

Stage jumps were designed with V1 in mind.

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Evilsmurf said:

The real issue with the physics is wonderfully pointed out by this thread, Everyone has their own opinion about it...

So who's right and who's wrong? Answer is no one. Clearly their is no way to please everyone, some like V2, some like V1. Some would like a mix of both, some think both versions are completely wrong.

The problem is the physics are subjective, what feels right to you probably doesn't feel right to someone else. Upon release the majority said the game had to much grip, they have change it now and some people still don't feel its right.

Their is no right or wrong and no way to please everyone. Ultimately everyone will have their own opinion.


and that's ok :)


Please tell me you're kidding. Many things can be debatable but pure physics are not one of those.

How our brains relate driving a real car to "driving" a car on a computer are very subjective though. A mathematically perfect model may leave us cold devoid of the forces and sensations of driving a real car on gravel through a forest at high speed. A car manufacturer relies upon combinations of mechanical, hydraulic and pneumatic devices to create a good (or bad) handling car. If it was that easy to mimic with a computer then springs, shock absorbers, arbs, chassis flex etc.would be replaced with a software controlled arm in each corner. Most sim racers don't have a motion sim so even the four arms are dispensed with and we have to "feel" car motion with what we see and feel through ffb.

Our brains aren't wired the same so it is no surprise the sensation of driving using a computer sim is very subjective. Of course there are obvious flaws in driving models in extreme (and sometimes not so extreme) conditions. Our home computers are some way off doing all the complex physics in real time plus I think fooling our brains into thinking we are driving is something of an art form!

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Here is my 2 cents. 

The tarmac update is ok but not great. The biggest problem i have is that i feel really disconnected from what the car is doing and the info i'm getting through my T500 wheel.

Tried with my favorite cars the Escort mk2 and the BMW M3 on the german stages and the force feedback gives me no idea what the car is doing when is loosing grip or sliding through the corners.
And even if i try lowering the suspension and tighten everything up in the BMW is still wants to roll around like it was using a gravel setup.
It feels awkward and really arcade.

The gravel on the other hand feels really good and i like the Finland stages. The FFB on gravel is completly different compared to tarmac in my case. Here the FFB loads up when the car is sliding and i can feel what the car wants to do.

 

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Overall, the direction is correct, but the implementation, especially on tarmac, is pretty bad.

Still, excited very much for the upcoming work from CM!

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Today I tried the „Baumholder, Germany“. I have to say my disappointment is at max. This is not rally, this is kiddy. It is like travelling on rails.

I don’t understand why the physics has to be changed ever. In 07 the behavior of the cars was on a good way. There was something like feeling the road. Meanwhile you are standing in deep tracks and you have only to push down the throttle. What a disappointment now.

At the beginning this game had a great potential to become a successor of Richard Burns Rally in some kind.

Meanwhile I don’t believe it any longer.

If there is no change in the next update back to real rally life, I’ll uninstall this game.


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This is the way for physical simulation. There are no excuses. Walter-NEST
(Jan Sluka) programmer has done with Real Physics for RBR. Codemasters make the effort to do a simulator. I talked to him
https://www.facebook.com/RbrRealPhysics/timeline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWV6ZE1XIU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcW5IEGI0tg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97IPGoSBlnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8km3hBQApE








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I posted this in another thread, but i feel it kinda' belongs here also.
--------------------------------------

"GrpA impreza on finland feels really pretty good.
There's a good sense of weight and gravity on these stages.

Pls DO NOT give the GrpA cars version.2 physics. Pls consider this with careful thought.
If it's possible, try and come to some sort of compromise between v.1 and v.2.

I was never sure and i'm still not... if it's the actual downforce of the v.1 cars, that makes the cars on greece come to a stop too quickly.
I think it's possibly more to do with the engine braking also.

I remember a while back, codies/devs were priding themselves on how the gravel could build up against the tyre walls and this would create a resistance.
So i don't know if this is maybe something to do with the cars stopping too quickly on greece.
But it does make me wonder because the Greek stages have a lot of medium and heavy gravel.

I do agree with the OP.
It is kinda' a step backwards and i would really ask you/dev's to maybe try different parameters with the physics rather than just subtract downforce.
Everyone knows that you're trying to push more towards sim and i appreciate that.
But sometimes you have to plug unrealistic numbers/data in, in order to get it to feel and drive right.

There is no shame in doing that. This is just the, still limitations of modern PC hardware.
Every sim physics engine needs compromise somewhere.
I don't really care if the data is real world or not, as long as the drive on the stages feels real, good and right."


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Having driven in the WRX championship mode for the *first* time tonight, and, more importantly, trying to do the currently monthly in the Sierra, it's very apparent that the side-way grip/resistance isn't quite right.

By that i mean, full throttle, even down a straight in the Sierra isn't really that possible, at least not to me, i'm posting ok-ish times, but i'm basically barely ever on full throttle, feels and sounds somewhat of an anti-climax.

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The over-exaggeration is real. Some people... UGH.
V2 physics - I haven't played many of the cars yet, but i haven't struggled to adapt with any of the played cars really. Only obstacle is my current Championship with 2010's Mini on Monte - now that handles pretty much like NFS Shift to me as first comparison, not exactly a good one to make. It can be quite.. unstable at times. Me using KB controls isn't helping the matter either. It just.. flies when it shouldn't.

What i like about this update was the fact that the 2010 cars now can truly accelerate and hit top speed like monsters.

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GusPerez said:
This is the way for physical simulation. There are no excuses. Walter-NEST
(Jan Sluka) programmer has done with Real Physics for RBR. Codemasters make the effort to do a simulator. I talked to him https://www.facebook.com/RbrRealPhysics/timeline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWV6ZE1XIU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcW5IEGI0tg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97IPGoSBlnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8km3hBQApE








@Nahkamarakatti  ;)  B)

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OK, I am starting to fall in love with Finland & the V2 cars a bit more after last night.  Jumps/Airtime is bothering me a lot less now, but given the choice, I would still like to see some sort of fix for the lightness, but the pacenotes and punctures are taking over as the minor irritation.

I found it quite hard to 'set' the pacenote interval, tuning into 'early' and you get the info as you need it at the sort of speed you can cover at finland, but going into some more complex parts of the stage, & you really do get lost in the rhythm as Paul is 4 corners ahead of you and calling a 4 left when you are going into a 3 left tightens flat in 5th!!  Set them on 'normal' and you are arriving at the mouth of the '4 right tightens 3 keep very in' committed in 5th, as Paul is finishing calling the main warning to the corner.

The punctures, they are just beyond control.  We have no access to adjusting tyre pressures, so no way of dialling them out, so effectively, they are to be seen as chicanes, there to slow you down on straight jumps!  & half the fun of jumps, is choosing your line and taking to the air on the limiter while the photographers go nuts!!!  lol

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I'm posting this in here too as it's related to V2.

Honestly, I don't think there is a problem with how the cars come over crests. The problem is that the elevations in Finland is exagerated in the game and people keep the foot down when driving. There is lack of punishment when landing right now, if the suspension took more damage people would have to take care of the car better, thus jumping in a more sensible way.

However, I feel that the crests/jumps in Finland are a bit badly paced. You often land in the middle of the next jump upseting the car. You bounce around alot thanks to that. IRL the jumps look to have more of a flow to them. But that's ok. A year ago I had no hope for a rally game as awesome as this. I'm just happy it exists and look forward to it improving!

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I probably agree @bogani and have said before that the stages were probably mapped for V1 cars which kinda work on the jumps, on one side of the studio while the V2 cars were developed at the other!  

The Focus has quickly become my favourite car on the game for fun, & finland, my favourite stages, but the Focus just doesn't quite feel 'at home' in there on the crests!  Tone 70% of the stage crests down to unsettle the car rather than 'jump' it and we have a winner!  I
f anything, I think we still have possibly too much lateral grip too but I suppose you have to compromise or they would be undrivable to many.

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Can't comment on anything else as i don't have it, but the air time looks the same.
It is not the air time. There are other important factors. Weight, model and contact tire path, lateral load, inercias..etc. v2 lacks these effects, the car goes like a train rail. Physical are not free, perish Sega Rally. We must find more freedom in lateral movement, inertia, etc. The RBR is an example of more real physical, because it is not used as an example ..? Can be done. There are users who want a rally simulator, not a rally game. Regars

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GusPerez said:
Can't comment on anything else as i don't have it, but the air time looks the same.
It is not the air time. There are other important factors. Weight, model and contact tire path, lateral load, inercias..etc. v2 lacks these effects, the car goes like a train rail. Physical are not free, perish Sega Rally. We must find more freedom in lateral movement, inertia, etc. The RBR is an example of more real physical, because it is not used as an example ..? Can be done. There are users who want a rally simulator, not a rally game. Regars
I hope you mean modded RBR, coz stock RBR is horrible to drive. If rally cars behaved like that irl everyone would die.

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GusPerez said:
Can't comment on anything else as i don't have it, but the air time looks the same.
It is not the air time. There are other important factors. Weight, model and contact tire path, lateral load, inercias..etc. v2 lacks these effects, the car goes like a train rail. Physical are not free, perish Sega Rally. We must find more freedom in lateral movement, inertia, etc. The RBR is an example of more real physical, because it is not used as an example ..? Can be done. There are users who want a rally simulator, not a rally game. Regars
I was commenting the physics videos.

However, laterally, things are horrible for the Sierra in wales, have you played the current monthly?

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GusPerez said:
This is the way for physical simulation. There are no excuses. Walter-NEST
(Jan Sluka) programmer has done with Real Physics for RBR. Codemasters make the effort to do a simulator. I talked to him https://www.facebook.com/RbrRealPhysics/timeline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWV6ZE1XIU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcW5IEGI0tg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97IPGoSBlnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8km3hBQApE








That is quite revelator. I dont think the airtimes are the same nor the way the car lands.
I dont know, the car shows more momentum or something that makes the car movement more credible.

About If we should compare Dirt Rally with RBR... mmm maybe not. I see different perspectives on both titles. Maybe both product dont play on the same league.

Time will tell, we just can talk here and CODEMASTERS will shape DR with the things/changes they will choose from the community (and the main project script, of course).

If you ask to me, Dirt Rally deserves to be an exemplar "simcade" Rally title. Maybe a plain hardcore rally SIM is not what public spect from CODEMASTERS.... or what CODEMASTERS want to develop; but yeah, I would prefer a more closer SIM title. I can almost touch it! 

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GusPerez said:
Can't comment on anything else as i don't have it, but the air time looks the same.
It is not the air time. There are other important factors. Weight, model and contact tire path, lateral load, inercias..etc. v2 lacks these effects, the car goes like a train rail. Physical are not free, perish Sega Rally. We must find more freedom in lateral movement, inertia, etc. The RBR is an example of more real physical, because it is not used as an example ..? Can be done. There are users who want a rally simulator, not a rally game. Regars
I was commenting the physics videos.

However, laterally, things are horrible for the Sierra in wales, have you played the current monthly?
Yes, I agree, no lateral support. The cars in the center pivot. not only sliding the rear part. Itis like having a vertical axis in the center of the car. The car does against the wheel. It is horrible.

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Well it doesn't feel like a center pivot, but if the track gals to the side, gravity pulls it down as the car slides in that direction as if it has no lateral grip.  That affects wheels without full traction, so in the Sierra case, it will slide the rear wheels, making it feel like it's turning on that center pivot you refer to.

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Is it not possible to alter the pitch of the car during the jump?
Finland:
No braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6LLwz-L8Bs
Braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjC6zo2fGDk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-u-0hVOByo
And in Germany:
No braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57nEd0SCQPc
Braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HO-Gqx1gUU

I would expect to see a difference between braking and no braking, but it doesn't appear to be the case.





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about the "2 wheel" rollovers in gravel. I didnt read anything new since a while.

https://youtu.be/OmC-0TkGw6g?t=1

I found this video and remind me that "issue", but the difference is this driver had everything in favor to provoke a roll

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