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V2 Physics Discussion


griev0r

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555WRC said:

My note to the devs... feedback from the Finland update, using the new Impreza that released alongside the Focus too.

I decided to put this here, because it's important to give feedback on the things that we feel are important in a sim. I only game via driving games, so this stuff is important to me. Really not much point not giving my point of view, because stuff won't get sorted without feedback. I'm also looking at this from a realistic sim angle too. I really think any assists necessary can make any sim handling model useable to all. But I also think when you strip all of those way, and drive it without any assists at all, it should be as realistic as possible. Rallying without realism, isn't rallying.

I like the way DiRT is going...

But I feel it has too much grip, or an issue which is something that make is feel similar. But it's getting there...

I'm talking about Finland here. When you are really pushing hard for decent times and land heavily with the car turning as you do land (for example when learning a stage and pushing the envelope) you achieve landings that could not happen in real life. I'm not talking about how far the car travels. I mean the car isn't being unsettled enough. This is using the vehicle out of the box, stock settings.

If the grip level(?) was more realistic, there would be grave consequences most of those times - which at the moment DiRT is not mirroring. Many times I've saved a massive accident waiting to happen, which wasn't possible to save. Please don't think I'm bashing Codemasters, I'm not. Thank heavens this is shaping up to be the rally sim we've been wanting from the studio for 10 years or more. I've been gaming since the DOS days.

If you watch replays on YouTube of Finland, you can see that the car always settles very quickly, and unrealistic landings sideways are possible, which would result in a wreckage in real life. This is also highlighted when the car is landing and hits a banking at speed too. It's almost like the car is being sucked back onto the ground. That's an exaggeration - but merely is included to reinforce that the cars don't seem to have real inertia/motion compared to real life. I could have uploaded a replay here, but if you view most vids of Finland in DiRT - it's clear to see for the scenario I've mentioned specifically.

So - I'd love to see this option/grip/tyres/suspension/chassis taken even further in the handling model. Which is the whole point of me bothering to write this post today.

Credit where it's due - this is really going in the direction it needs to!!

But - let's not stop half way. I can appreciate why DiRT doesn't want to put the more casual gamer off, but at least put an option in there to go fully realistic. From that point, with as much realism included, the assists can and will maintain a workable balance for those who don't want to have to drive for hours to get a perfect lap etc. Or to crash often, you get my point.

I don't know if the problem is absolute grip on each tyre, tyre flex, or if it's the weight transfer that's not happening correctly. Due to high speed "out of shape" landings issue, I can't tell whether the suspension physics isn't being modelling completely enough? Not enough calculations? I probably think it has more to do with inertia/mass and forces etc. Obviously DiRT is getting a complicated beast, and rightly so, but I think it's probably a couple of areas that aren't having the desired impact on each other. The cars because of this don't seem to "scrub out" under max loads. Understeer. I even think that some of the sharper flat turns can be taken faster than the real car would do on a slippery surface. I'm not going to name corners etc., as I'd hope this is something that the devs are working on - and the die hard sim fans kinda get where I'm coming from.

If you put a real Impreza, no matter what Rally model, on a real skid-pan and monitored it's movement - and recreated that scenario in the game, it would highlight what I mean. I appreciate that's not possible - but my point is, for me, it feels like that is where the issues are. Vehicle mass not affecting the grip enough.

I could video a replay and show you what I mean, but there are plenty of examples of incidents where cars would crash when landing after they go over a jump and start revolving on the horizontal axis, and land heavily at high speed, only to have brakes/opp-lock save them. When cars are spinning on more than one axis (at the same time) the same is also true. Which to me makes sense, like the forces aren't unsettling the car enough. The Finland dev video/Q&A easily reinforces my points.

Yet - when the car is being stopped at a head on collision, that feels more believable. But when the car's mass is in extreme motion/weight transfer, and is also being influenced by a bank, it just feels like all that mass is moving down a new trajectory with a grip level that is too high.

Youtube has lots of replays where the errors/speeds are so great, the mass would just not be correctable in real life in certain situations. But in the game it isn't going far enough yet. Finland, as lovely as it is, really highlights this issue. Because the issues seem to me, to be highlighted by high speed out-of-shape landings, that are possible in Finland. I'm really talking about batting-on, not steady progress, but going for it. This is the scenario that I'm referring to. But logically, I guess what this all means is, that at all times, either grip/tyres/chassis/suspension etc. (wherever the problems are) is not quite there, on every surface, on every tyre type, for every bump/turn/jump. But, as nice as DiRT is at present (it is early access of course), the handling issue I've described is really highlighted by Finland. But the cause/improvements would be beneficial to all other stages, anywhere. It would really make the art of rallying come to life.

Finland really is the extreme in DiRT to date.

I'm not saying it's impossible to crash in DiRT. It is. But I think under the specific circumstances I've mentioned, my description of the issue is very noticeable at Finland. Wales can't really highlight the extremes like Finland can. An option to become very realistic would be appreciated. It's why I bought into DiRT. I hope the dev's can consider further enhanced realism for the greater good. DiRT is coming along great, and I've recommended it to friends too. Like most rally fans, I'm just after making DiRT the best it can be. It should be harder.

I'll even stick my neck out, and logically say, if the devs put 2 identical cars on the same stage, and drove them into each other at speed, whilst executing a handbrake turn - you'd really see that the movement and inertia is quite a way off. But don't run them head on into each other, they need to be glancing off each other and being deflected.

If I'm wrong, I'll donate £20 to a charity of your choice. If I'm right, you donate the £20, and I'll top that up by £10 to £30! Just because that's the kind of guy I am!

What do you say??

:D

AN IDEA FOR LONG TERM DiRT DEVELOPMENT...

If you build - just one short (3 mile?) real laser-scanned stage, and sent a real driver down the real stage in a car - then they did the same stage/car combo in DiRT, the data would highlight where issues are too. No doubt a WRC Top Gun rally driver could tell you what areas within the entire physics aren't right - from feeling alone.

There is probably a couple of months work left until Dirt's early-access ends?

Tarmac/ice I feel are the poorest surfaces in the game at present. Again, any work sorting out grip/tyres/susp/weight transfer etc, would benefit every stage in every country. A win win situation. Ultra realistic handling would be a perfect option in my mind. Your quest for realism is what hooked me this time.

Just as the RALLYX drivers gave feedback on making those conditions improved, I'm looking forward to the next level up from where the Rally project is at currently. As much as I appreciate this journey is far from over, for me the handling is 6.5/7 out of 10 using the new vehicles and updates. The current characteristics are holding DiRT back for now. To me, that's a positive issue, because it can be looked at.

Please don't feel that I think a solution is easy, or quick, I don't imagine for one minute it is.

Interesting times ahead!! Congrats so far…

++++++++++++ 1 !!!!!
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555WRC said:

My note to the devs... feedback from the Finland update, using the new Impreza that released alongside the Focus too.

I decided to put this here, because it's important to give feedback on the things that we feel are important in a sim. I only game via driving games, so this stuff is important to me. Really not much point not giving my point of view, because stuff won't get sorted without feedback. I'm also looking at this from a realistic sim angle too. I really think any assists necessary can make any sim handling model useable to all. But I also think when you strip all of those way, and drive it without any assists at all, it should be as realistic as possible. Rallying without realism, isn't rallying.

I like the way DiRT is going...

But I feel it has too much grip, or an issue which is something that make is feel similar. But it's getting there...

I'm talking about Finland here. When you are really pushing hard for decent times and land heavily with the car turning as you do land (for example when learning a stage and pushing the envelope) you achieve landings that could not happen in real life. I'm not talking about how far the car travels. I mean the car isn't being unsettled enough. This is using the vehicle out of the box, stock settings.

If the grip level(?) was more realistic, there would be grave consequences most of those times - which at the moment DiRT is not mirroring. Many times I've saved a massive accident waiting to happen, which wasn't possible to save. Please don't think I'm bashing Codemasters, I'm not. Thank heavens this is shaping up to be the rally sim we've been wanting from the studio for 10 years or more. I've been gaming since the DOS days.

If you watch replays on YouTube of Finland, you can see that the car always settles very quickly, and unrealistic landings sideways are possible, which would result in a wreckage in real life. This is also highlighted when the car is landing and hits a banking at speed too. It's almost like the car is being sucked back onto the ground. That's an exaggeration - but merely is included to reinforce that the cars don't seem to have real inertia/motion compared to real life. I could have uploaded a replay here, but if you view most vids of Finland in DiRT - it's clear to see for the scenario I've mentioned specifically.

So - I'd love to see this option/grip/tyres/suspension/chassis taken even further in the handling model. Which is the whole point of me bothering to write this post today.

Credit where it's due - this is really going in the direction it needs to!!

But - let's not stop half way. I can appreciate why DiRT doesn't want to put the more casual gamer off, but at least put an option in there to go fully realistic. From that point, with as much realism included, the assists can and will maintain a workable balance for those who don't want to have to drive for hours to get a perfect lap etc. Or to crash often, you get my point.

I don't know if the problem is absolute grip on each tyre, tyre flex, or if it's the weight transfer that's not happening correctly. Due to high speed "out of shape" landings issue, I can't tell whether the suspension physics isn't being modelling completely enough? Not enough calculations? I probably think it has more to do with inertia/mass and forces etc. Obviously DiRT is getting a complicated beast, and rightly so, but I think it's probably a couple of areas that aren't having the desired impact on each other. The cars because of this don't seem to "scrub out" under max loads. Understeer. I even think that some of the sharper flat turns can be taken faster than the real car would do on a slippery surface. I'm not going to name corners etc., as I'd hope this is something that the devs are working on - and the die hard sim fans kinda get where I'm coming from.

If you put a real Impreza, no matter what Rally model, on a real skid-pan and monitored it's movement - and recreated that scenario in the game, it would highlight what I mean. I appreciate that's not possible - but my point is, for me, it feels like that is where the issues are. Vehicle mass not affecting the grip enough.

I could video a replay and show you what I mean, but there are plenty of examples of incidents where cars would crash when landing after they go over a jump and start revolving on the horizontal axis, and land heavily at high speed, only to have brakes/opp-lock save them. When cars are spinning on more than one axis (at the same time) the same is also true. Which to me makes sense, like the forces aren't unsettling the car enough. The Finland dev video/Q&A easily reinforces my points.

Yet - when the car is being stopped at a head on collision, that feels more believable. But when the car's mass is in extreme motion/weight transfer, and is also being influenced by a bank, it just feels like all that mass is moving down a new trajectory with a grip level that is too high.

Youtube has lots of replays where the errors/speeds are so great, the mass would just not be correctable in real life in certain situations. But in the game it isn't going far enough yet. Finland, as lovely as it is, really highlights this issue. Because the issues seem to me, to be highlighted by high speed out-of-shape landings, that are possible in Finland. I'm really talking about batting-on, not steady progress, but going for it. This is the scenario that I'm referring to. But logically, I guess what this all means is, that at all times, either grip/tyres/chassis/suspension etc. (wherever the problems are) is not quite there, on every surface, on every tyre type, for every bump/turn/jump. But, as nice as DiRT is at present (it is early access of course), the handling issue I've described is really highlighted by Finland. But the cause/improvements would be beneficial to all other stages, anywhere. It would really make the art of rallying come to life.

Finland really is the extreme in DiRT to date.

I'm not saying it's impossible to crash in DiRT. It is. But I think under the specific circumstances I've mentioned, my description of the issue is very noticeable at Finland. Wales can't really highlight the extremes like Finland can. An option to become very realistic would be appreciated. It's why I bought into DiRT. I hope the dev's can consider further enhanced realism for the greater good. DiRT is coming along great, and I've recommended it to friends too. Like most rally fans, I'm just after making DiRT the best it can be. It should be harder.

I'll even stick my neck out, and logically say, if the devs put 2 identical cars on the same stage, and drove them into each other at speed, whilst executing a handbrake turn - you'd really see that the movement and inertia is quite a way off. But don't run them head on into each other, they need to be glancing off each other and being deflected.

If I'm wrong, I'll donate £20 to a charity of your choice. If I'm right, you donate the £20, and I'll top that up by £10 to £30! Just because that's the kind of guy I am!

What do you say??

:D

AN IDEA FOR LONG TERM DiRT DEVELOPMENT...

If you build - just one short (3 mile?) real laser-scanned stage, and sent a real driver down the real stage in a car - then they did the same stage/car combo in DiRT, the data would highlight where issues are too. No doubt a WRC Top Gun rally driver could tell you what areas within the entire physics aren't right - from feeling alone.

There is probably a couple of months work left until Dirt's early-access ends?

Tarmac/ice I feel are the poorest surfaces in the game at present. Again, any work sorting out grip/tyres/susp/weight transfer etc, would benefit every stage in every country. A win win situation. Ultra realistic handling would be a perfect option in my mind. Your quest for realism is what hooked me this time.

Just as the RALLYX drivers gave feedback on making those conditions improved, I'm looking forward to the next level up from where the Rally project is at currently. As much as I appreciate this journey is far from over, for me the handling is 6.5/7 out of 10 using the new vehicles and updates. The current characteristics are holding DiRT back for now. To me, that's a positive issue, because it can be looked at.

Please don't feel that I think a solution is easy, or quick, I don't imagine for one minute it is.

Interesting times ahead!! Congrats so far...

better with pictures                                                                                                                                                     
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTG86K2Til0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQEY6Gv48k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NB5VuT8f6A





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teknoid85 said:
maybe a dumb question:

for now only  subaru,focus,mini and fiesta have the v2 physics.

will this be change for all cars in future?

The following class have the V2 physics at the moment.

60's class
70's class
80's RWD class
2000 class
2010 class

The rest will follow, with the Group B cars and Pikes Peak cars getting the update I think (could be total wrong) along with the Modern Masters pack. Or so I'm lead to believe. :) 



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Evilsmurf said:
teknoid85 said:
maybe a dumb question:

for now only  subaru,focus,mini and fiesta have the v2 physics.

will this be change for all cars in future?

The following class have the V2 physics at the moment.

60's class
70's class
80's RWD class
2000 class
2010 class

The rest will follow, with the Group B cars and Pikes Peak cars getting the update I think (could be total wrong) along with the Modern Masters pack. Or so I'm lead to believe. :) 



I think with Modern Masters Group B 4WD and Group A will be getting v2. Pikes Peak, Kit Cars and Group B RWD later date 
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Job3k said:
I think with Modern Masters Group B 4WD and Group A will be getting v2. Pikes Peak, Kit Cars and Group B RWD later date 
Yep, it's this case. KickUp mentioned this few times on the forums, we'll have to wait for Sweden to get PP, F2 and B RWD in V2 mode. Can't wait for it, since they'll supposedly finally fix that broken sequential shifting in the PP cars :D
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Well as long as the V2 for PP won't ruin the tarmac experience as it did everywhere else... should be good. I'd hate having to avoid PP as well. :(
I actually bought the game when I heard PP was being included, and was mystified by the absurd handling mechanics of the cars, hopefully the new physics will bring me back to it.
On a side note, whats up with Jeff Bridges?
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JZStudios said:
Well as long as the V2 for PP won't ruin the tarmac experience as it did everywhere else... should be good. I'd hate having to avoid PP as well. :(
On a side note, whats up with Jeff Bridges?
  He's the Dude. So that's what you call him. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
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griev0r said:
JZStudios said:
On a side note, whats up with Jeff Bridges?
  He's the Dude. So that's what you call him. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
With the grain, with the grain, just like riding the waves. You can't fight these big waves Co.
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I've noticed pretty unreal thing driving the Focus'01 for a few times.
It's mostly probable on Finland stages with weaken rollbar and pretty soft suspension.
Place: after veryyyyy long straight with jumps that looong left corner downhill next to big meadow on left which's basically a very very very very long hairpin that makes it 2x3 left).
In real word if you get to corner too fast that'sleaning on the outside you will get your car on two outside wheels - that's true.
But in real word if you counter that two wheels drive in opposite direction you immediately get on the ground.
Here's a situation in real life:
https://youtu.be/2xHSwSDnmh8

Now if you do that in V2 physics....nothing will happen - you still stay on two wheels. It's like its impossible to counter two wheel drive.
I'll try to reproduce and record it today as yesterday I've forgot to press replay and lost the possibility ;)

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Just on the 2 wheel thing, I caught and landed a proper door-handle two wheeler last night, it can be done!

& @Montago , SAT is the best part of the FFB!!  Its natural & essential.  Centre Spring should be Zero, or it interferes, as does Tyre slip
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