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V2 Physics Discussion


griev0r

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KevM said:
How about you just don't use the handbrake when using the cars, and those of us who want to use the handbrake can still use it. Jesus christ, it's so pathetic to be arguing about a friggin handbrake.

IT'S A GAME!!!!!!
Nope!                                                 
This 'game thing' may be the reason why Codemasters will never do true hardcore sim and why we still have to wait for the new holy grail of sim rallying. Because there's always the guy who's saying it's just a game... :)
what is a true hardcore rally sim?   RBR?     apart the known lacks of dirt rally, it's still more real than rbr
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teknoid85 said:
KevM said:
How about you just don't use the handbrake when using the cars, and those of us who want to use the handbrake can still use it. Jesus christ, it's so pathetic to be arguing about a friggin handbrake.

IT'S A GAME!!!!!!
Nope!                                                 
This 'game thing' may be the reason why Codemasters will never do true hardcore sim and why we still have to wait for the new holy grail of sim rallying. Because there's always the guy who's saying it's just a game... :)
what is a true hardcore rally sim?   RBR?     apart the known lacks of dirt rally, it's still more real than rbr
I didn't said that. I'm very well aware of the issues in RBR. Better than you propably think..

My point was only that you shouldn't make any shortcuts unless it's the only option.
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I don't see it as a big deal but if you're committed to realism you should make what efforts you can to stick to that otherwise you're just confusing your intentions and the result will be an unfocused product. For me the "just don't use it" argument is retarded. My philosophy on that is the same as restarts; if it's there and it's going to improve my time I'm going to use it, or I'm doing myself a disservice.
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Bring the turbo for Escort MK2 cause it's just a game. :)
You have the ability to not use the handbrake. You wouldn't have an ability to not use a turbo on an Escort Mk2. Pointless argument is pointless.
True. You got me and I stand corrected.

Still I don't think that a so-called sim should force you to use non-realistic equipment if you want to drive as fast as possible against other people over internet. I haven't even looked for the leaderboards and doesn't give a flying sheit about it. Everything I look for sims are the driving immersion and that's why I've focused more for the hardware than for the competition.

In a nutshell this just sounds very weird path to tackle into sim genre. Like giving people an optional stability control which will make you faster if used. Then just say, 'Hey, no-one forces you to use it'.
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Why do sim racers get so butt hurt over small features in a game that aren't as they are irl?
Honestly? that statement is just butt kissing Codemasters.  

If Paul has said it's easy, why not do it??  It's just an unnecessary driving aid on a car that never had it.  If all the 70's cars 'happened to be' 4wd, would you accept that too??
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KevM said:
Why do sim racers get so butt hurt over small features in a game that aren't as they are irl?
Honestly? that statement is just butt kissing Codemasters.  

If Paul has said it's easy, why not do it??  It's just an unnecessary driving aid on a car that never had it.  If all the 70's cars 'happened to be' 4wd, would you accept that too??
Flawed as the turbo argument. 4WD isn't something you could choose not to use by not pressing a button (or pulling a handle, whatever).

Are we forgetting that all the cars in this game have had optional stability management, ABS and traction control since day one?
Saying as the fastest people just turn them all off right away, I guess we actually have forgotten that.
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+1 for having realistic handbrakes, (BTW, i never saw anyone doing handbrake turns in the Lancia 037 as well, even though it's RWD)BrySkye said:BrySkye said:
Are we forgetting that all the cars in this game can have had optional stability management, ABS and traction control since day one?
Saying as the fastest people just turn them all off right away, I guess we actually have forgotten that.
These assist's do not help at all, but having the handbrake working for the purpose we want in those cars can be handy on some corners, so it actually can make you go faster when used properly.
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BrySkye said:
Are we forgetting that all the cars in this game can have had optional stability management, ABS and traction control since day one?
Saying as the fastest people just turn them all off right away, I guess we actually have forgotten that.
I still have ABS on when I'm setting World Records on Monte Carlo with Evo X. It can be a MASSIVE help when used properly with the handbrake *runs away*

Chaps, we live in 21st century. At this point in time probably most owners of the Group B cars have implemented a hydraulic handbrake in them that works anyway.
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BrySkye said:
KevM said:
Why do sim racers get so butt hurt over small features in a game that aren't as they are irl?
Honestly? that statement is just butt kissing Codemasters.  

If Paul has said it's easy, why not do it??  It's just an unnecessary driving aid on a car that never had it.  If all the 70's cars 'happened to be' 4wd, would you accept that too??
Flawed as the turbo argument. 4WD isn't something you could choose not to use by not pressing a button (or pulling a handle, whatever).

Are we forgetting that all the cars in this game can have had optional stability management, ABS and traction control since day one?
Saying as the fastest people just turn them all off right away, I guess we actually have forgotten that.
If you want to compete against other people on the leaderboards, like i have, not using handbrake is not an option. You HAVE to use it to be competitive, since other top people use it too. Its not always necessary, but sometimes you just fail to set the car properly to flick it around and need handbrake to save it. In that case when you want to compete with other people the earlier comparisons are valid.

That's why early on i suggested it could be put in the preferences options, as an assist. But I guess that's too much work since it never happened.
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gheeD said:
If you want to compete against other people on the leaderboards, like i have, not using handbrake is not an option. You HAVE to use it to be competitive, since other top people use it too. Its not always necessary, but sometimes you just fail to set the car properly to flick it around and need handbrake to save it. In that case when you want to compete with other people the earlier comparisons are valid.

That's why early on i suggested it could be put in the preferences options, as an assist. But I guess that's too much work since it never happened.
The moment you go competitive is the moment when realism and authenticity has to be thrown out of the window in a game. If something gives you and edge, you use it there. If you want to just enjoy playing the game like so, you can keep all of your authentic options and play as you want. Remember, it's you who decides to go competitive, no one forces you to do so just like they give you an option to use the handbrake. You don't need to use it if you don't want to.
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gheeD said:
If you want to compete against other people on the leaderboards, like i have, not using handbrake is not an option. You HAVE to use it to be competitive, since other top people use it too. Its not always necessary, but sometimes you just fail to set the car properly to flick it around and need handbrake to save it. In that case when you want to compete with other people the earlier comparisons are valid.

That's why early on i suggested it could be put in the preferences options, as an assist. But I guess that's too much work since it never happened.
The moment you go competitive is the moment when realism and authenticity has to be thrown out of the window in a game. If something gives you and edge, you use it there. If you want to just enjoy playing the game like so, you can keep all of your authentic options and play as you want. Remember, it's you who decides to go competitive, no one forces you to do so just like they give you an option to use the handbrake. You don't need to use it if you don't want to.
Events, leagues leaderboard allows you to filter out those who use assists. Those are the only leaderboards that really matter (league) and i can easily ignore those who used assists. I drive to improve my rallying skills, so I try to keep my settings as authentic as possible and drive as fast as possible I can. So far I have been able to keep up but I know I could be faster if I wanted to by reducing steering ratio to make it easier to steer. 


I hope to someday drive real rally cars and hope some of these skills can be transferred to real life it ever comes to fruition.
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One thing is common for all support forums. There's always people defending the title no matter how stupid things they do. That's Ok, though. I've done it in the past too (not proud of it). It just doesn't make the product any better. Give a credit when something is well done (like the gravel surface simulation) but don't hesitate to say if something isn't right. Peace and love from the home of rallying. Off to sleep.
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gheeD said:
Events, leagues leaderboard allows you to filter out those who use assists. Those are the only leaderboards that really matter (league) and i can easily ignore those who used assists. I drive to improve my rallying skills, so I try to keep my settings as authentic as possible and drive as fast as possible I can. So far I have been able to keep up but I know I could be faster if I wanted to by reducing steering ratio to make it easier to steer. 


I hope to someday drive real rally cars and hope some of these skills can be transferred to real life it ever comes to fruition.
Sure, you can filter out. But at the end of the day it's the fastest one regardless of what he's using that gets the prize, not the fastest with most authentic setup. I can filter out all the steering wheel users to make myself feel good, but that won't change the fact I'm not #1. Again, if you go for competitive, you throw away realism if it makes you slower. Just like they do it real life, if aids will make them faster, they will use them... until the rules ban them.

You have the ability to test yourself against other people who want to use authentic setups. Playing in an authentic way is a personal preference, just like camera view, so no point forcing it on other people.

Oh, and for those saying no handbrake on Group B cars... well, sorry to disappoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-XmLak_Xik
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gheeD said:
If you want to compete against other people on the leaderboards, like i have, not using handbrake is not an option. You HAVE to use it to be competitive, since other top people use it too. Its not always necessary, but sometimes you just fail to set the car properly to flick it around and need handbrake to save it. In that case when you want to compete with other people the earlier comparisons are valid.

That's why early on i suggested it could be put in the preferences options, as an assist. But I guess that's too much work since it never happened.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying from a balance and hyper competitive point of view.
 
It's purely the argument that it shouldn't be there because it's unrealistic and the real cars didn't have it, which is why I mentioned this is a game where, since day one, we've had options to sanitise cars with the full range of assists.
So the handbrake doesn't stand out any more than these other unrealistic additions.

No one has a gun held to their heads in making them use the handbrake, or ABS, or TCS, if it has no place in that car.
Thus the 'don't use it if you don't want to' is a valid viewpoint from Paul, treating it like any other assist already in the game, albeit one that isn't set in the menu, so can be a greater temptation at any given time.
Provided things like ABS, TCS and SM are in the game, a hand brake on a car which didn't have it is hardly a revelation.

This path we are taking has a murky end. I mean, are we trying to say that we can't drive a car in this game unless we physically have the actual wheel, pedals and shifter used in that actual car?
That's the absurd extreme we're potentially talking about. Where we start saying you can't drive a car unless you have the correct setup at home.
"You have a sequential shifter instead of an H-Shifter? Get out of the classics cars." etc, etc. Never mind the whole, pads, KB players.

The competitive standpoint is another, deeper, matter all together, saying as the leaderboards don't take into account any assists at all or have a way of indicating what is and isn't used.
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.
gheeD said:
If you want to compete against other people on the leaderboards, like i have, not using handbrake is not an option. You HAVE to use it to be competitive, since other top people use it too. Its not always necessary, but sometimes you just fail to set the car properly to flick it around and need handbrake to save it. In that case when you want to compete with other people the earlier comparisons are valid.

That's why early on i suggested it could be put in the preferences options, as an assist. But I guess that's too much work since it never happened.
It all gets a bit moot as you can choose to use a sequential gearbox in a car that didn't have one because developers can't mandate you have buy an h-shifter or you can decide to install a really quick rack at 400 degrees by fiddling with your wheel profile.
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gheeD said:
Events, leagues leaderboard allows you to filter out those who use assists. Those are the only leaderboards that really matter (league) and i can easily ignore those who used assists. I drive to improve my rallying skills, so I try to keep my settings as authentic as possible and drive as fast as possible I can. So far I have been able to keep up but I know I could be faster if I wanted to by reducing steering ratio to make it easier to steer. 


I hope to someday drive real rally cars and hope some of these skills can be transferred to real life it ever comes to fruition.
Sure, you can filter out. But at the end of the day it's the fastest one regardless of what he's using that gets the prize, not the fastest with most authentic setup. I can filter out all the steering wheel users to make myself feel good, but that won't change the fact I'm not #1. Again, if you go for competitive, you throw away realism if it makes you slower. Just like they do it real life, if aids will make them faster, they will use them... until the rules ban them.

You have the ability to test yourself against other people who want to use authentic setups. Playing in an authentic way is a personal preference, just like camera view, so no point forcing it on other people.

Oh, and for those saying no handbrake on Group B cars... well, sorry to disappoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-XmLak_Xik
I guess it wasnt clear but that was MY opinion and how I view competitiveness in dirt. I know I'm one of the fastest drivers and roughly know other fast peoples setup. If they can milk those few seconds because its so much easier due to arcade settings, i dont mind. I know I'm fast and want to beat them realistically. 

And that video is same as the turbo'd escort. Not realistic as the original cars did not have handbrakes, they are fitted afterwards like klausner motorsport says on its website. 
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gheeD said:
And that video is same as the turbo'd escort. Not realistic as the original cars did not have handbrakes, they are fitted afterwards like klausner motorsport says on its website. 
That's the point. We drive those cars in a year 2015. We don't travel back in time to play them. So naturally a lot of people would outfit their Group B cars today with a proper handbrake to allow for some better car control. It doesn't make it faster, they don't have to use it. It's there just in case. A turbo'd Escort is no longer "performance accurate" to its rally specs, but a Quattro with a handbrake? If someone wants to be timeline accurate, they just don't use the handbrake.

Also if you can put ABS, TCS or whatever electronic assist on the older cars nowadays anyway, how does that make anyone who uses them any worse? Another thing, arcade means simple, not easy. Simple settings are the ones where everything is just as it is IRL, not changed in anyway, default, in other words authentic. Complex settings, aka simulation are the ones where you change it to fit your needs, as in you simulate the cars behaviour under certain conditions, in this case "assists".

Nice try at pushing the blame to people that like arcade racers though. Almost would've missed it.
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gheeD said:

If you want to compete against other people on the leaderboards, like i have, not using handbrake is not an option. You HAVE to use it to be competitive, since other top people use it too. Its not always necessary, but sometimes you just fail to set the car properly to flick it around and need handbrake to save it. In that case when you want to compete with other people the earlier comparisons are valid.

So, because you don't want to use the handbrake, others should be forced to play the game your way so it's fair for you?

That doesn't sound all that fair :(

gheeD said:

That's why early on i suggested it could be put in the preferences options, as an assist. But I guess that's too much work since it never happened.


 So we set the handbrake as an assist... ok.


but wont the top people who want to use the handbrake just turn the assist on? and still beat you.


Just to be clear, I don't care either way. It will make zero difference to how my day turns out, I'm only commenting because your argument is flawed.

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