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V2 Physics Discussion


griev0r

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Just to be clear, i dont care if people using assists beat me. It will make zero difference to how my day turns out  ;)

TBH so far people who beat me with group b cars handbrake or none are pretty few. Or none. The whole point since asking kickup early May was that if it could easily be made as an assist. Since then the argument from codies has been its not worth it because not enough people want such option. I think here have been fair few who are for such a setting, to get the car as authentic to the original experience as possible. That's what this handbrake argument has been from the start. Its easily possible, it wouldnt take away from people who would want to use it as an assist, so why not make it.
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BrySkye said:
Are we forgetting that all the cars in this game can have had optional stability management, ABS and traction control since day one?
Saying as the fastest people just turn them all off right away, I guess we actually have forgotten that.
I still have ABS on when I'm setting World Records on Monte Carlo with Evo X. It can be a MASSIVE help when used properly with the handbrake *runs away*

Chaps, we live in 21st century. At this point in time probably most owners of the Group B cars have implemented a hydraulic handbrake in them that works anyway.
Nope, you'd need a complex centre differential to fit one.  That's the problem, a handbrake would work on a group b, but the diffs would lock the 4 wheels & you'd just stop (or burst the drive-train)

Hence the calls to disable it, it's mechanically impossible on the Grp B car.
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Why not simply map factory settings for ABS, gearbox layout (sequential/H-Pattern) and whether or not you can use the handbrake to the specific car according to the real specifications? Other sims can do it too. Don't get me wrong.. I like dirt rally a lot, but this half arsed approach to many things throws away a lot of potential. To me what makes or breaks a sim is immersion. 
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For some reason this ongoing discussion reminds me a bit of the downshift protection thread on Assetto Corsa forum. It's just other way round here... People defending gamey functions here.

+1 for factory settings including shifters. Just give paddle drivers tiny delay for gear shifts and that's fair for everybody as long as you don't go crazy with the delay. Handbrake would be part of it. No car has ABS nor TC so these would be automatically excluded from the "Factory-mode".
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KevM said:
Why do sim racers get so butt hurt over small features in a game that aren't as they are irl?
Honestly? that statement is just butt kissing Codemasters.  

If Paul has said it's easy, why not do it??  It's just an unnecessary driving aid on a car that never had it.  If all the 70's cars 'happened to be' 4wd, would you accept that too??
He said that in May. Doing it at this point would probably jeopardize the release timeline and I have to agree more or less with Rallycameraman. 
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For some reason this ongoing discussion reminds me a bit of the downshift protection thread on Assetto Corsa forum. It's just other way round here... People defending gamey functions here.

+1 for factory settings including shifters. Just give paddle drivers tiny delay for gear shifts and that's fair for everybody as long as you don't go crazy with the delay. Handbrake would be part of it. No car has ABS nor TC so these would be automatically excluded from the "Factory-mode".
Bit OT... Assetto Corsa's thing isn't other way round tho, downshift protection is implemented realistically there but the problem is where they detect to use it. AC uses your shifting method to determine if its active or not, so if you have only paddles you have protection on every car but not when you use paddles and H-shifter.   Edit: something something initial implementation was wrong in some cars when using paddles on h-shifter box, never noticed any cars with it activated incorrectly as it just isn't there when using h-shifter.

Difference is they have taken the move to go more realistic and same kind of people that give resistance to realistic handbrake here whine there because they can't abuse gearbox to gain advantage.

Back to HB, It would be reasonable to have assist for "Realistic handbrake behavior". And people saying that when going for the absolute best times we don't really care about assist are just plain wrong and don't know real simdriver mentality. Things we could abuse are more of a car setup things (tiremodel etc. flaws -> absurd cambers that wouldn't hold in real life etc.) not arcade assists.
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Kakkela said:
For some reason this ongoing discussion reminds me a bit of the downshift protection thread on Assetto Corsa forum. It's just other way round here... People defending gamey functions here.

+1 for factory settings including shifters. Just give paddle drivers tiny delay for gear shifts and that's fair for everybody as long as you don't go crazy with the delay. Handbrake would be part of it. No car has ABS nor TC so these would be automatically excluded from the "Factory-mode".
Bit OT... Assetto Corsa's thing isn't other way round tho, downshift protection is implemented realistically there but the problem is where they detect to use it. AC uses your shifting method to determine if its active or not, so if you have only paddles you have protection on every car but not when you use paddles and H-shifter.

Difference is they have taken the move to go more realistic and same kind of people that give resistance to realistic handbrake here whine there because they can't abuse gearbox to gain advantage.
Sorry for the offtopic but I have to correct this one since this is a bit misleading IMHO. Otherwise I agree with you.

Modders have a chance to completely bypass the system or to adjust it just like they wanted (including over-revving the engine). That said the same possibilities are with official content too if someone will point out a car that does not have it.

Back to the topic: This discussion actually raised some questions how much Codies have taken shortcuts to make the game more gamey for not so serious simmers. I propably have to take a look at some setup options for example.
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Who's really defending 'gamey' functions?

There's a difference between saying, for example, the HB should stay because it's better and saying it doesn't really matter about removing it because you can just not press the button if it bothers you so much.
Especially since it's an ancient topic and we're only a month from release.
There are much more important things to focus development time on right now than some peoples inability to resist temptation and avoid hitting a button.
Or, as has been mentioned, unbinding the HB key when driving a Group B.

I wasn't defending the existence of assists in the game, I've turned them all off.
I'm just saying it's not inconsistent with the design and intention of the game that's been in place since day one.
Go back and read some of the interviews Paul did back in April.

DiRT Rally was never meant to be a game that only the elite hardcore can play.
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co-co-co-co-co-combo breaker!!
Continuing with this long OT (who cares fisix), let me introduce you the perfect solution for this issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCObg7jTsl0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=296E57CxNw4

This does not brake the whole drivetrain on 4x4 cars. Problem? :trollface: 

Mates, dont take it so seriously... Dirt Rally is still a game, not a 1:1 copy of real rallying.
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well its all getting lively about nothing in here :p

its pretty simple use the handbrake if you want to . don't if you don't. if you are a skilled decent driver you will be able to drive without it as fast anyway with the group b cars.

the real funny thing is if the group b cars were out today they would have handbrakes fitted its just then they couldn't or it was too much hassle.

as for making it a assist. come on don't be silly.how about making it a assist for not using it ? :D

the power in the group b cars with the right set up is just flick power on.

as for arguing about steering set ups for degrees and such is also as daft.

a person driving their car will have it set up to how they want it. so it works for them. you dont just go (pipe in hand) its 900 degrees or nothing son !

LOL. do you think by using 900 degrees you will translate what is in this game to actual rallying LOL.

i can just imagine at rally training oh i did 900 degrees on dirt rally ill be fine :D




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BrySkye said:
Who's really defending 'gamey' functions?

There's a difference between saying, for example, the HB should stay because it's better and saying it doesn't really matter about removing it because you can just not press the button if it bothers you so much.
Especially since it's an ancient topic and we're only a month from release.
There are much more important things to focus development time on right now than some peoples inability to resist temptation and avoid hitting a button.
Or, as has been mentioned, unbinding the HB key when driving a Group B.

I wasn't defending the existence of assists in the game, I've turned them all off.
I'm just saying it's not inconsistent with the design and intention of the game that's been in place since day one.
Go back and read some of the interviews Paul did back in April.

DiRT Rally was never meant to be a game that only the elite hardcore can play.
This just proves you didn't get why people are talking about this. It's as important as any other part of simulation, how can we be sure drivetrain simulation is even close to reality when it fails in simple task as this?

And if it were handled with assists we would see if someone uses it and then just ignore his GrpB times.
It won't make game unplayable for anyone.
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Kakkela said:
real simdriver mentality.
Elitism detected. Activate the "Ignore completely" protocols.
BrySkye said:
DiRT Rally was never meant to be a game that only the elite hardcore can play.
It becomes the most hilarious when the elite hardcore gets beaten by the "lowly arcade casuals" on their own rules. The excuses that are flying then are simply majestic.
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Their mindset just differs from ours. Sadly from our perspective the game has been done more for them and looks like it's not gonna change. Only options as a single customer is to deal with it or walk away. Not saying this single decision is game breaker but for sure it will lighten up the direction DR is heading to.
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Kakkela said:
real simdriver mentality.
Elitism detected. Activate the "Ignore completely" protocols.
BrySkye said:
DiRT Rally was never meant to be a game that only the elite hardcore can play.
It becomes the most hilarious when the elite hardcore gets beaten by the "lowly arcade casuals" on their own rules. The excuses that are flying then are simply majestic.
I meant it in context of abusing mechanics and nothing more... If someone says even simracers abuse game mechanics when pushing to absolute top they don't really know what is normal simracers mindset. 
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Their mindset just differs from ours. Sadly from our perspective the game has been done more for them and looks like it's not gonna change. Only options as a single customer is to deal with it or walk away. Not saying this single decision is game breaker but for sure it will lighten up the direction DR is heading to.
In my experience there are many forms of sim racers and categorization into arcade, simcade, hardcore is a massive over simplification. The market at the extreme hardcore end is tiny although very vocal as these are the greatest enthusiasts and is often their primary interest. Developers tend to be enthusiasts too and probably would love to create a hardcore title but it simply isn't viable outside of the hobby enthusiasts. Personally I count my blessings that this end is catered for at all within more mainstream products like DIRT Rally but some compromise has to be expected.
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If you look over my past input or requests, Id be the first to rubbish an unnecessary request or defend something I feel players want changed due to not understanding the reality of its effect.  Like the whole Impreza Spoiler/Interior saga, who cares, it means nothing to how you play the game!

BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.

Group B has finally become the monster it should be, but if  Henri Toivonen and Markku Alen had to tip-toe negotiating a hairpin, why shouldn't we?



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KevM said:
If you look over my past input or requests, Id be the first to rubbish an unnecessary request or defend something I feel players want changed due to not understanding the reality of its effect.  Like the whole Impreza Spoiler/Interior saga, who cares, it means nothing to how you play the game!

BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.

Group B has finally become the monster it should be, but if  Henri Toivonen and Markku Alen had to tip-toe negotiating a hairpin, why shouldn't we?



I see we have very similar mindset..

I couldn't care less are the trees in Finland exactly right coloured or are the cars looking absolutely spot on but the thing that means to me is the goal to simulate something as good as possible. No sim software are ever ready but for me making such choices for purpose is just something that makes my mind suspicious about the rest of the code.
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Kakkela said:
And if it were handled with assists we would see if someone uses it and then just ignore his GrpB times.
It won't make game unplayable for anyone.
Only if you use the website to view the leaderboards, and that only covers live events and leagues.
That's not much help for the hyper-competitive wanting to set and look at world records.
The older F1 games told you in-game if assists had been used with little icons. DiRT Rally never has.

Adding functionality to the in-game leaderboards to view the type of controller used and assists for all stages would surely be the higher priority.
Adding functionality to leagues that would let you force assists off and control car upgrade levels would also have to be considered a higher priority.

Nahkamarakatti said:
Their mindset just differs from ours. 
Oh geez, are we really going to go to the "us and them" mentality?
'My' mindset is simply having a consideration for game development, deadlines and budgets.
There are so many things which are just more important right now. 
Maybe it could be considered as being added as an assist in the future, but it should be low down on that list, especially because it only applies to select car classes rather than being a universal feature.
Adding it as an assist is actually quite a bit of work since you also need to update the UI to get it in the menus, which is not as easy as just inserting some text.

We've been very lucky they've managed to find the time to squeeze in manual wipers as such an assist and that's something universal that applies to all cars. The main reason it was done was that people found it very distracting to have the wipers go off infront of them when they were in the zone.

There was only so much time allotted to implementing community requested features in Early Access, and most of it was taken up by the FFB update.
Since v2 physics was never a planned part of the timeline either, those had to be squeezed in.
There's already features the team wanted to implement but simply haven't had the time do to so.
That's the sad reality of game development.

Is 'not pressing the button' an ideal solution?
No.
Does it work?
Well... yeah... I guess.
KevM said:  
If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.
Well, apparently you're not a 'normal' sim-racer, according to @Kakkela 

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@BrySkye 
I know and I never accused them for nothing. Their company, their call. I saw already from the launch video that if they want to do what they promised on marketing speeches they had Mt. Everest to climb. Still wanted to jump in on a very first day to support their new approach and I still don't regret it. So far I'm impressed how far they managed to go on such a short period of time. The software has taken massive steps forward.

I'm already looking forward for the DR 2 and will once again buy it on a very first day if I can see the goal is still to make rally game as realistic as possible and not to turn towards the big mass of 'Ken Block-people'. I've been and will support every single software that wants to do a pure sim.
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Perhaps the reason for not disabling it, is the physics?  You had 2 choices in a Grp B car, tip-toe the hairpin (maybe the cars dont have the lock to drive a hairpin without reverse - mood killer), or a big Scandinavian Flick (maybe the cars still grip too well to initiate the flick and power round it).

https://youtu.be/IDU6LdqR0xw
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KevM said:
Perhaps the reason for not disabling it, is the physics?  You had 2 choices in a Grp B car, tip-toe the hairpin (maybe the cars dont have the lock to drive a hairpin without reverse - mood killer), or a big Scandinavian Flick (maybe the cars still grip too well to initiate the flick and power round it).
Without the handbrake you pretty much have to throw/flick the car around alot, which equals an absurd amount of fun.
Most people just use handbrakes on the group b cars (ingame) to be competetive.
It's actually way more fun to drive without the handbrake.
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I'm already looking forward for the DR 2 and will once again buy it on a very first day if I can see the goal is still to make rally game as realistic as possible and not to turn towards the big mass of 'Ken Block-people'. I've been and will support every single software that wants to do a pure sim.
In my view between the ultra hardcore sim racer and the "Ken Block-people" there is a huge market with varying degrees of desires for an authentic experience. Anyone who has done even the most basic forms of rallying knows that an authentic experience is very different to the convenience of "rallying" at home on their computer. Be it waiting around at scrutineering, sat waiting for the course closing car to catch a lift as you sit in your cold non running car in the middle of a freezing winter's night, endless evenings patching up your car after some adventures last event and so the list goes on.

None of the above makes sense in a simulation, so we cherry pick the bits that do make sense for authenticity but that will still vary from person to person, although there will be a general consensus what is a title aiming for authenticity and those providing a less serious representation.

IMHO there will be very few pure sims as the market is so niche. So it is likely that developers will need to encompass a wider market and try to still appeal to the hardcore because that is where their own enthusiasm lies. Understanding this and not interpreting it as abandoning their goals is something I believe we should be more tolerant about.
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