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V2 Physics Discussion


griev0r

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Kakkela said:
I meant it in context of abusing mechanics and nothing more... If someone says even simracers abuse game mechanics when pushing to absolute top they don't really know what is normal simracers mindset. 
Ahh, the magical social word. You do realise that the general meaning of the phrase "normal person" is someone who follows the social norms and doesn't think for himself in order to improve their situation (irrelevant of what the norms are relating to). They simply follow the "routine". I would personally call that behaviour stupid, so if that's what you meant, then I can't be bothered with a mindset of a person who doesn't think for himself.

And then again, does it even matter? I like good arcade racer, good simcade racer and good sim racer. In other words, I like good, enjoyable physics. Bad physics are bad irrelevant of whether they are sim, simcade or even arcade. What I don't like is when someone tells me how should I play. If there's an option to use something on a car that didn't had that IRL, and I find it enjoyable, then I'm going to use it. Why? Because I want to have fun. If I'm thinking about going competitive, then I'm gonna use every advantage I can get to be faster in a way that isn't considered as abusing a bug. Why? Because I want to be competitive. If I want an authentic experience, then I'm simply gonna set the game in an authentic way in regards to the car I'll be using. Why? Because I want authentic experience. Do I care that someone out there beat my time by few seconds because he used something that I didn't use and is higher on some insignificant leaderboard in a game? Not at all, and anyone that does should take a step away from the computer and realise that games are not the alpha and omega of everything.

One last thing. Abusing game mechanics sounds bad, but it's in fact a proof that someone actually thinks, not just follows the norms because someone said so. Not to mention, you're not abusing a bug, you're abusing, aka using very efficiently, a mechanic implemented in the game. If your statement really points that you don't like people that think, then we're done here.
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KevM said:
But, can it be done with the grip we have?  I haven't really tried yet in a Group B, I do with the 70's cars but they are always trying to straighten when you are attempting to keep the ass out!! :)
its pretty easy as they have the power.just light flick power down as you would for real.

sometimes i handbrake sometimes i do just that.i guess its just how i come to the corner and feel what will be the best result.
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KevM said:
BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.
I see what you are saying as it is something in the devs control to disable. However, without being able to mandate controllers there will always be things people can do which aren't authentic to be faster, be it running wheels at 270 degrees, using wheel buttons for clutches, driving in socks! The list goes on and there will always be someone who has an old 270 degree wheel or no clutch pedal who will need these options. At the very sharp end of people heading the leaderboards authenticity of controllers does indeed go out the window. After that I do think people gravitate to what feels more life like.

The 270 degree wheel is a classic case, I know some of the faster drivers use very fast steering setups (270-360 degrees). My own testing I quickly set a personal best but compared with a more authentic setting (an Escort quick rack is typically about 2.4 turns lock to lock which is near enough 900 degrees) it felt unrealistic and less immersive.

I know of very fast drivers who have put a softer spring in the brake pedal of  a G25 so they can be more precise with braking, something those looking for a more authentic feel were adding stiffness to!

Creating an even playing field with authentic controls is a nightmare without being able to control what hardware is used and how third party software is set.
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KevM said:
BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.
I see what you are saying as it is something in the devs control to disable. However, without being able to mandate controllers there will always be things people can do which aren't authentic to be faster, be it running wheels at 270 degrees, using wheel buttons for clutches, driving in socks! The list goes on and there will always be someone who has an old 270 degree wheel or no clutch pedal who will need these options. At the very sharp end of people heading the leaderboards authenticity of controllers does indeed go out the window. After that I do think people gravitate to what feels more life like.

The 270 degree wheel is a classic case, I know some of the faster drivers use very fast steering setups (270-360 degrees). My own testing I quickly set a personal best but compared with a more authentic setting (an Escort quick rack is typically about 2.4 turns lock to lock which is near enough 900 degrees) it felt unrealistic and less immersive.

I know of very fast drivers who have put a softer spring in the brake pedal of  a G25 so they can be more precise with braking, something those looking for a more authentic feel were adding stiffness to!

Creating an even playing field with authentic controls is a nightmare without being able to control what hardware is used and how third party software is set.
now its gravitating to steering wheel degrees..... :D

you know what just let people drive how they want ! i could drive at 900 degrees but why ? for the sake of reality ? really ? its a video game !!!!

its not real. sorry the games great but its not real. 99 percent of us would never drive as we do in this game and make a stage. so dont try and force a option saying its realistic when we are playing a virtual driving game.

yes i do use low degrees if you must know its 200 ! :p

the funny thing is if we want to be clever about it rally drivers have different set ups.they all dont drive at 900 degrees !

this is starting to get silly. nitpicking at anything. the games great best out just drive it enjoy it have fun.
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dgeesi0 said:
KevM said:
BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.
I see what you are saying as it is something in the devs control to disable. However, without being able to mandate controllers there will always be things people can do which aren't authentic to be faster, be it running wheels at 270 degrees, using wheel buttons for clutches, driving in socks! The list goes on and there will always be someone who has an old 270 degree wheel or no clutch pedal who will need these options. At the very sharp end of people heading the leaderboards authenticity of controllers does indeed go out the window. After that I do think people gravitate to what feels more life like.

The 270 degree wheel is a classic case, I know some of the faster drivers use very fast steering setups (270-360 degrees). My own testing I quickly set a personal best but compared with a more authentic setting (an Escort quick rack is typically about 2.4 turns lock to lock which is near enough 900 degrees) it felt unrealistic and less immersive.

I know of very fast drivers who have put a softer spring in the brake pedal of  a G25 so they can be more precise with braking, something those looking for a more authentic feel were adding stiffness to!

Creating an even playing field with authentic controls is a nightmare without being able to control what hardware is used and how third party software is set.
now its gravitating to steering wheel degrees..... :D

you know what just let people drive how they want ! i could drive at 900 degrees but why ? for the sake of reality ? really ? its a video game !!!!

its not real. sorry the games great but its not real. 99 percent of us would never drive as we do in this game and make a stage. so dont try and force a option saying its realistic when we are playing a virtual driving game.

yes i do use low degrees if you must know its 200 ! :p

the funny thing is if we want to be clever about it rally drivers have different set ups.they all dont drive at 900 degrees !

this is starting to get silly. nitpicking at anything. the games great best out just drive it enjoy it have fun.
i think i love you :D
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At first I was amazed about some opinions here. Then I took a look for the which cam you're driving and suddenly everything started to make sense. I'm out. :)
Yep, that thread makes for interesting reading!  :)

Its like going for a meal in a Michelin Star restaurant, and asking for a bottle of red sauce!
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dgeesi0 said:
KevM said:
BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.
I see what you are saying as it is something in the devs control to disable. However, without being able to mandate controllers there will always be things people can do which aren't authentic to be faster, be it running wheels at 270 degrees, using wheel buttons for clutches, driving in socks! The list goes on and there will always be someone who has an old 270 degree wheel or no clutch pedal who will need these options. At the very sharp end of people heading the leaderboards authenticity of controllers does indeed go out the window. After that I do think people gravitate to what feels more life like.

The 270 degree wheel is a classic case, I know some of the faster drivers use very fast steering setups (270-360 degrees). My own testing I quickly set a personal best but compared with a more authentic setting (an Escort quick rack is typically about 2.4 turns lock to lock which is near enough 900 degrees) it felt unrealistic and less immersive.

I know of very fast drivers who have put a softer spring in the brake pedal of  a G25 so they can be more precise with braking, something those looking for a more authentic feel were adding stiffness to!

Creating an even playing field with authentic controls is a nightmare without being able to control what hardware is used and how third party software is set.
now its gravitating to steering wheel degrees..... :D

you know what just let people drive how they want ! i could drive at 900 degrees but why ? for the sake of reality ? really ? its a video game !!!!

its not real. sorry the games great but its not real. 99 percent of us would never drive as we do in this game and make a stage. so dont try and force a option saying its realistic when we are playing a virtual driving game.

yes i do use low degrees if you must know its 200 ! :p

the funny thing is if we want to be clever about it rally drivers have different set ups.they all dont drive at 900 degrees !

this is starting to get silly. nitpicking at anything. the games great best out just drive it enjoy it have fun.
My point is that a 200 degree steering (amongst other controller settings) is probably less authentic than adding a handbrake to a 1980s 4WD Grp B car but there is nothing anyone can do about it so we just have to enjoy it and have fun!
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At first I was amazed about some opinions here. Then I took a look for the which cam you're driving thread and suddenly everything started to make sense. I'm out. :)
gheeD said:
At first I was amazed about some opinions here. Then I took a look for the which cam you're driving thread and suddenly everything started to make sense. I'm out. :)
I know right....
How witty. Because everyone that doesn't 100% agree with you is obviously just a chase cam & controller monkey.

Shame that someone like @Rallycameraman makes a mockery of your petty barb.

Don't make it personal. 
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KevM said:
BUT Saying 'don't press the button' is just plain silly.  Yes, that is a simple solution to a mechanical inaccuracy.  Whats next?  Telling gamers to 'Don't use 6th gear in the '07 Focus'??  Why go to the effort of having switchable lights and wipers, but not remove a handbrake (which gives unfair advantage to those who don't really care).  If you are competing/racing other people in like-for-like vehicles, intentionally giving yourself a disadvantage in the interests of authenticity, goes out the window.
I see what you are saying as it is something in the devs control to disable. However, without being able to mandate controllers there will always be things people can do which aren't authentic to be faster, be it running wheels at 270 degrees, using wheel buttons for clutches, driving in socks! The list goes on and there will always be someone who has an old 270 degree wheel or no clutch pedal who will need these options. At the very sharp end of people heading the leaderboards authenticity of controllers does indeed go out the window. After that I do think people gravitate to what feels more life like.

The 270 degree wheel is a classic case, I know some of the faster drivers use very fast steering setups (270-360 degrees). My own testing I quickly set a personal best but compared with a more authentic setting (an Escort quick rack is typically about 2.4 turns lock to lock which is near enough 900 degrees) it felt unrealistic and less immersive.

I know of very fast drivers who have put a softer spring in the brake pedal of  a G25 so they can be more precise with braking, something those looking for a more authentic feel were adding stiffness to!

Creating an even playing field with authentic controls is a nightmare without being able to control what hardware is used and how third party software is set.
I drive with best simracers fom Finland (iRacing World Championship drivers from Team Redline etc.) and I have never even heard of people changing their brakes to SOFTER ones. You get more precise braking with harder pedal not softer. 

Steering wheel thing isn't that important as people have pointed out, you could swap steering rack in real life without that much of a hassle. And as I race iRacing oval series it's normal to have different steering rack setups.

It's funny how any other sim title can have more realism than this without so much resistance... AC is very accessible for even gamepad users but still one of the top5 simulators on the market at the moment...
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BrySkye said:
At first I was amazed about some opinions here. Then I took a look for the which cam you're driving thread and suddenly everything started to make sense. I'm out. :)
gheeD said:
At first I was amazed about some opinions here. Then I took a look for the which cam you're driving thread and suddenly everything started to make sense. I'm out. :)
I know right....
How witty. Because everyone that doesn't 100% agree with you is obviously just a chase cam & controller monkey.

Shame that someone like @Rallycameraman makes a mockery of your petty barb.

Don't make it personal. 
Nope. People likes to put words in my mouth. Only thing I meant was that it is too obvious we just can't speak the same language. We want too different things from our gaming... That's why I said "I'm out".
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BrySkye said:
How witty. Because everyone that doesn't 100% agree with you is obviously just a chase cam & controller monkey.

Shame that someone like @Rallycameraman makes a mockery of your petty barb.

Don't make it personal. 
Now Now....  Dont get touchy you wee chaser-cammer!!  (joke) lol  
Its quite easy to forget & assume that everyone commenting, is the same or similar to yourself.  But why argue on the finer details, when not everyone owns an i7, Oculus Rift, a Thrustmaster, three screens and a Recaro racing seat on a D-Box rig.  The argument becomes slightly irrelevant.    I get what he means.

I think @Nahkamarakatti  has merely realised that the game is open to a broader spectrum of users that may not be of entirely the same train of thought, or have the exact same hardware or appetite for immersion as himself.  Doesn't make him or them wrong though


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Exactly what @Nahkamarakatti said. We want different things from driving games, and which is obvious reading these threads and seeing statistics of how people like to play the game. If you want to take it personally that is your problem but it's just no use arguing here for more realism when over half of the player base drives without a wheel.. Just the way things are. 

Obviously those of us who want more realism are in a minority and most people are happy how hard or realistic the game is. Nothing more than that.
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Kakkela said:

Steering wheel thing isn't that important as people have pointed out, you could swap steering rack in real life without that much of a hassle. And as I race iRacing oval series it's normal to have different steering rack setups.

Yeh but choosing the rack with 0.55 turns lock to lock probably isn't a real life option...
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gheeD said:
Obviously those of us who want more realism are in a minority and most people are happy how hard or realistic the game is. Nothing more than that.
I really don't see how wanting to drive the car in the way someone wants makes it less realistic. I (and looking at few other threads on this forum a lot of other people as well) would like the most realistic physics for this game as possible, but things that don't affect the performance and the aforementioned physics in any way should be left for player to decide himself. So if someone wants to play with a headcam and a keyboard, let them. If someone wants to drive on a bumper camera with a gamepad, let them. If someone wants to use chase camera with a steering wheel, let them. If someone wants to use that damn handbrake on a Group B car, let them. It's purely down to personal preference. It doesn't impact how realistic the game is in any way.

I mean, if someone would turn up in an actual rally with a Group B car that he modded with a sequential gear box, low rotation steering, hydraulic handbrake and who knows what else, would you go to him and start blabbering about how unrealistic he is?

And what me setting a WR while using a gamepad (steering wheel is also a controller, learn English people...) has to do with game being less realistic? Gamepad has an analog stick, so technically speaking it's like a very low degree steering wheel (40? xD). Besides, ask @Porkhammer to run any of the Monte Carlo stages where I have a WR and he'll beat those times easily by few seconds even when he may not enjoy those cars there.

You guys instead of just enjoying the game, you're trying to find holes in everything. Yes, the physics still need to be improved on which majority of people agree here. Does it mean you can't enjoy the game right now? No. So let Codies do their job and simply live with some simplifications on the "assists" side.
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Not the best example though since Rallycameraman would never say a bad word about Codemasters. There's no point discussing realism anyway when Ryu is setting tarmac WRs in chase cam with a controller. redflag.png
This...

My favorite view was helmet cam until v2 came. Then it changed to chase view... just can't feel the car anymore from helmet with so much wobliness.

Main reason why I quit...

Fockin CMR 2005 play style.
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The reason I'm critical of the ability to be as fast as wheel users while using a game pad is that a wheel provides a lot more feedback and this should result in a greater confidence in the limits of the cars and faster times, in a realistic simulation. I don't like the current tarmac physics because they reward drifty gameplay and pander to game pad users. It's become clear that's the way the game is going to be, but I don't have to like it. Yes I'm sure porkhammer could beat the times if you can get him to drive on monte for five minutes without slitting his wrists, he'd be driving sideways and hating every second of it though. 
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Eh, so pointing out things lacking in the physics department is now finding holes in everything? I'm sorry but there are glaring problems in the physics that simply cant be ignored, and most of us want to point those out to make the game better (=MORE REALISTIC) for everyone. 

The point that you completely missed was that it's become clear the majority of the players who play this game do not have the same equipment to  feel and appreciate these features that are lacking. Arguing about these features here is evidently pointless and atleast I will propably give this feedback elsewhere since it's hard to have constructive discussion about it here.
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Honestly, this sort of infighting is why I avoid sim communities these days. I would rather simply play and enjoy a racing or flying game without endless griping about minutia.

I understand that there is a hole in the market for a modern rally simulation, but the expectation that a Dirt game is going to fill that role instead of creating a game that appeals to a more mainstream audience is simply naive.

Want to know what is even more annoying than Group B cars having handbrakes? A constructive discussion on the v2 physics being dragged down into an off-topic slap-fight.
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