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V2 Physics Discussion


griev0r

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OzoreXS said:
about the "2 wheel" rollovers in gravel. I didnt read anything new since a while.

https://youtu.be/OmC-0TkGw6g?t=1

I found this video and remind me that "issue", but the difference is this driver had everything in favor to provoke a roll
Pero esa levantada de pata, se ve como pilla algo que lo levanta. Los videos que vimos en foro coches, eso es imposible que ocurra físicamente, se vuelca por una deceleración, pero volcar por aceleración eso va contra las leyes de la física,  y el lo que pasaba a Adrian, aunque supongo que pisaría talud...
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Well, I went into it from a neutral position, trying the 01 Impreza against the GrpA one (in which I have some experience) and I'm afraid to also aknowledge that V2 Physics are wrong at some point. First the FFB is way weaker, but I also tried it with heavier settings to get the same car control out of it. 
What seems to be the key difference in driving feel to me is that you feel less of the road in V2 and that there seems to be to much grip in V2 everywhere. I got really fast corner speeds with the 01 Impreza on Monte Carlo (both on tarmac and ice) which felt strange. I went watching a Solberg Monte Carlo onboard with the same car and IRL the car had to travel much slower in the corners , similar to the speeds i drive in Grp A. 

Presuming the weight is accurate (why would they change it) and presuming they REDUCED the downforce with V2: than the problem is somewhere in the Tyre-Physics. (Which is actually the hardest part of car-physics-simulation cause of the rubber/air/pressure/surface interaction which is in fluid-dynamics territory if you'd do it accuratly) 


Can someone enlighten me? What exactly was wrong with V1 physics anyways? I always felt it was quite plausible and believable.
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The thing I noticed about V1 physics was the exaggerated downforce keeping the suspension too squat so that weight transfer was minimal and sudden, rebounds off of rocks, etc. were calculated too strong (equal and opposite reaction calculated with invisible extra downforce = extra rebound), the way one tire in the grass sent the car spinning like it got punted by a Yeti, the way cars would bog mid-hairpin unless you kept the tires smoking, you could downshift recklessly without penalty since the downforce kept the tires gripping even when in the wrong RPM..Just lots and lots of slight variations in the suspension and grip modeling that were hard to put one's finger on, but when they mentioned phantom downforce it was an 'Ah-HA!' moment.
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Spent some time with the Focus (un-upgraded) with the windscreen fix so I wasn't looking at the sun when I came out of the woods.  It feels good, but the more I play with the v2 physics I feel theres a little bit missing.  Big jumps are too forgiving as pointed out in this thread, it feels more natural but I don't have to "wheel" the car anymore too much unless in a crisis situation.  Does that make sense?  Don't get me wrong it takes the perfect line over the crests to get the stage right and I appreciate that, but yeah the cars feel a little 'light'.  The most glaring issue I've found is that you really cant get a nice long sideways slide going, the car corrects itself way too fast when at those speeds on gravel you would keep that momentum going, but you can't do that right now.

I still stand by my OP that it is a step in the right direction.   We did need less aero/gravity however they did it, on the right path but I think it needs a couple more tweaks.
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Definitely. The thing that nags at me is that although it would be fun to have more grip / downforce (who doesn't want more when fighting for the line you want to be on?) in actual driving it is the sense of lightness that causes the 'pucker factor' in the first place. If I lose it and spin out it is almost always from getting too light over a rise and over-correcting on the drop. It can be frustrating, but that is how it feels - always wanting to push the vehicle down. Watching Porkhammer's advice-seeking video today really reinforced how cheesy the V1 downforce is. When he goes over small ridges at high speed the back end of the car boings up and down so fast that it looks like it has been artificially sped up 2X. If I could ever get a wheel to track over bumps that well I could win any race out there - low un-sprung weight is the big challenge in handling. Getting a wheel to resist its' mass and track the backside of a bump that closely is just not possible. Wheel skip is virtually non-existant in V1 until you reach a certain threshold where you are actually jumping a bit, Watch the body of the car - in reality the body is more level and the suspension undulates beneath it - on the V1 videos the body of the car itself is always squishing down on the suspension, even when it should have more rebound from mass no matter how the suspension is tuned. 
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WasabiWei said:
It isn't a theory - the patch notes say FFB is off because of the reduced downforce. I'm not making this up..
I think he knows, the problem is people hear "downforce" and immediately knee-jerk to "aerodynamic downforce"
What other kind of downforce there is but aerodynamic downwards thrust? (Can't really be gravity, why would they change gravity???)
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The more I play this v8, the more contradictory feeling I found.

Yesterday I drove all the weekly at Germany with the Focus RS. Nothing new here in those runs:
- Slow car (non upgraded)
- Dull/weak/loose FFB
- A bit too long airtime in jumps
- Behavior outstanding below 120km/h... above that speed weird things start to happen. I feel like the car wants to rise... I dont know, like the floor effect is inverted. The much speed you gain, the lighter the car becomes?

But what surprised me is the feeling of I cant detect anymore when the car will start to slide. Maybe is FFB related and nothing more.

But later I drove a couple of  Wales stages in the other weekly with the Gr.A Impreza.
After driving the V2 car I couldnt find the V1 believable anymore. V1 have just too much grip in all surfaces, wich let you travel and correct moves at impossible speeds.
In fact I found the V1 Impreza much more easy to drive after the long drive with the V2 Focus.
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Kakkela said:
WasabiWei said:
It isn't a theory - the patch notes say FFB is off because of the reduced downforce. I'm not making this up..
I think he knows, the problem is people hear "downforce" and immediately knee-jerk to "aerodynamic downforce"
What other kind of downforce there is but aerodynamic downwards thrust? (Can't really be gravity, why would they change gravity???)
In fact Is gravity what I feel reduced, not aero.
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OzoreXS said:

Kakkela said:
WasabiWei said:
It isn't a theory - the patch notes say FFB is off because of the reduced downforce. I'm not making this up..
I think he knows, the problem is people hear "downforce" and immediately knee-jerk to "aerodynamic downforce"
What other kind of downforce there is but aerodynamic downwards thrust? (Can't really be gravity, why would they change gravity???)
In fact Is gravity what I feel reduced, not aero.
Why would you you say "reduced downforce" and not "corrected gravity values" then? I'm pretty sure downforce's definition is aerodynamic downward thrust and not a general word for all downward forces.
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V2 is a grower, but we need V3!! :)

A tad more weight/downforce/gravity (just a wee bit) and less lateral grip so we car REALLY 4 wheel slide the car and the handling would be truly awesome!

The big sweeping left into up-hill sweeping 3 right to 4, after the bridge in Finland, has me wanting a big 4th/5th gear power slide every time!
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OzoreXS said:
The more I play this v8, the more contradictory feeling I found.

Yesterday I drove all the weekly at Germany with the Focus RS. Nothing new here in those runs:
- Slow car (non upgraded)
- Dull/weak/loose FFB
- A bit too long airtime in jumps
- Behavior outstanding below 120km/h... above that speed weird things start to happen. I feel like the car wants to rise... I dont know, like the floor effect is inverted. The much speed you gain, the lighter the car becomes?

But what surprised me is the feeling of I cant detect anymore when the car will start to slide. Maybe is FFB related and nothing more.

But later I drove a couple of  Wales stages in the other weekly with the Gr.A Impreza.
After driving the V2 car I couldnt find the V1 believable anymore. V1 have just too much grip in all surfaces, wich let you travel and correct moves at impossible speeds.
In fact I found the V1 Impreza much more easy to drive after the long drive with the V2 Focus.
I believe the limited aero tech on most cars in the game actually does not produce downforce, they just reduce the lift effect. 
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Just finished a Rally in Finland and Germany in the Impreza 01 . ANd Although the Gravel V2 feels remotely plausible, the tramac physics are a step to far: The wheels don't have enough grip, turning in doens't result in the front wheels going the way they face but slightly in between. Its like driving constantly on wet (or as if there is a thick layer of sand on the road) 
It's really noticeable at the two narrow haystack shicanes in germany. Additionally, although there is less grip you can carry more speed through a corner which is odd. 
Overall IF V1 was improvable, then they've gone into the right direction but multiple times too far over the intended target. So right now I would choose V1 over V2 because of that. 

I planned to start my first Masters difficulty career with the 01 Impreza but right now I'm not sure if i'd rather stick with the Grp A...
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SkyRex said:
Just finished a Rally in Finland and Germany in the Impreza 01 . ANd Although the Gravel V2 feels remotely plausible, the tramac physics are a step to far: The wheels don't have enough grip, turning in doens't result in the front wheels going the way they face but slightly in between. Its like driving constantly on wet (or as if there is a thick layer of sand on the road) 
It's really noticeable at the two narrow haystack shicanes in germany. Additionally, although there is less grip you can carry more speed through a corner which is odd. 
Overall IF V1 was improvable, then they've gone into the right direction but multiple times too far over the intended target. So right now I would choose V1 over V2 because of that. 

I planned to start my first Masters difficulty career with the 01 Impreza but right now I'm not sure if i'd rather stick with the Grp A...
You will enjoy Gr.A much more. Sure. Especially the Impreza.
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Kakkela said:
WasabiWei said:
It isn't a theory - the patch notes say FFB is off because of the reduced downforce. I'm not making this up..
I think he knows, the problem is people hear "downforce" and immediately knee-jerk to "aerodynamic downforce"
What other kind of downforce there is but aerodynamic downwards thrust? (Can't really be gravity, why would they change gravity???)
This is a game, forces aren't the same as real life and there are more of them to complete the simulation.  Gravity is one thing, weight is another, aero is one more, which I understand isn't modeled in v1 physics.
Gravity will affect how fast something falls, but you need downforce in the game to say how much force the car should exert on the ground.
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Kakkela said:
WasabiWei said:
It isn't a theory - the patch notes say FFB is off because of the reduced downforce. I'm not making this up..
I think he knows, the problem is people hear "downforce" and immediately knee-jerk to "aerodynamic downforce"
What other kind of downforce there is but aerodynamic downwards thrust? (Can't really be gravity, why would they change gravity???)
This is a game, forces aren't the same as real life and there are more of them to complete the simulation.  Gravity is one thing, weight is another, aero is one more, which I understand isn't modeled in v1 physics.
Gravity will affect how fast something falls, but you need downforce in the game to say how much force the car should exert on the ground.
I know of all of these forces, I have vast experience in racing simulators. My point was, you can't really say "reduced downforce" and then reduce gravity effect or weight because those effects are not downforce. 
Kakkela said:
Why would you you say "reduced downforce" and not "corrected gravity values" then? I'm pretty sure downforce's definition is aerodynamic downward thrust and not a general word for all downward forces.

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So we all know there's plenty of problems with the physics but here's another I was noticing while driving the Grp. A subaru in GB Rain - It seriously feels like you're driving in a foot or more of soft  mud.  The car slows dramatically when you're not on the gas and when you get a little sideways at all you slow to a stop like you're wheels are just stuck in the mud.

I think I read somewhere that the devs added an effect of dirt/mud accumulating outside the tires  when sliding.  If thats the case it feels like its exaggerated by 1000%

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