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V2 Physics Discussion


griev0r

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TuliRally said:
KevM said:
I actually set my wheel up the same as you suggested @OzoreXS, for a DFGT, and agree that somethings diluting the effect, but it works well when you amplify it in the FFB settings.  I'm now at the suggested 107 in the profiler & 150% SAT, which I am happy with for the Escort!  Good job!

It may turn out to be awful for other cars but I can tinker about with it
Do you have centering on from profiler? And if so, how many percents? Because without it i have crazy oscillations happening when having over 100 % SAT with FFB effects from profiler being 107%. 

Even with more moderate settings than those it oscillates without centering :neutral: 

I have DFGT
As you have a DFGT wheel, check this out:
http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/17307/logitech-driving-force-gt-recommended-ffb-settings

Make sure you set that values and SAT at 65! (need to update that pic)

Sorry for the continued off topic. I invite you all to continue this discussion at that thread, or open a new one where discuss all FFB setting matters.
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Thank you both and sorry for going little bit offtopic from my behalf also. Let's continue in that proper topic.

@OttoWilson i will also post my thoughts in there also about your ffb settings. It sounds good though what you are trying to achieve with it!
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My wheel is a Logitech Momo Racing, but i tested it in a friend's G27 as well (it felt the same)

wheel settings here are 101% Overall effects, 0% Spring and 101% Damper (i think i used 25% in the G27)
In game i have the Center Steering turned on, soft lock as well (but i turn off it's force, becus old wheel ya know...) and i use Linearity -10 (recommend to fiddle with this, none of the cars feel natural here with this setting above -5, but it may the the "old wheel with low rotation" problem) 

BTW, i don't think this is so much off topic, though if needed, i'll open a new thread
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dgeesi0 said:
the subaru 2001 has very high body roll and tips over on corners at high speeds.
Yup it feels very soft and mushy even when you try setting it up stiff for tarmac. It feels like a boat rocking from side to side. I really don't like it on tarmac. It's better on gravel, but never as direct in feeling as the Focus.
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It may be coincidental, but in this and many previous rally games, you always had cars to set fast times in, and the Fords to really enjoy driving fast!  They are always so intuitive and fun to throw around.  The Mk2, Sierra, Fiesta and Focus take the fun car award hands down in each respective category.
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@OttoWilson While testing your FFB mod (with some small changes to FFB settings in game) i started to laugh. I laughed hard while driving thru finnish scenery. It just felt so good in a long time. 

But in all seriousness. What a feeling!

I combined tis with @KevM suggestions (if anyone is interested check from DFGT settings thread) for Escort Mk.2 for DFGT and doing more testing. But all ready i'm loving it. 

What i feel it does give you more road feel. More minor changes on road and the important thing it does is i feel i'm in cotrol all the time and having all feedback i need. I wasnt good with RWD cars before.. and i truly mean before. Things really changed

Big thanks to both of you!! 

@OttoWilson i just hope i could help you more, but i am not so specialized in car physics etc.

Ah those interested. 
My first test was to like he said he had it.

I liked a little bit more toned down version of it. SAT at 85 and so on
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It was pure frustration in the Escort in Germany and the lack of feeling that led me to do a bit of a re-think and re-tune.  When you get the feel of the steering cracked, it makes the game so unbelievably rewarding!

I actually laugh out loud at my accidents now, because they generally don't happen frustratingly or uncontrollably now, its because I was driving on such a fine line, maxxed out at 11-10ths and normally have a total train-wreck after getting it wrong in a BIG-big way lol
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KevM said:
It was pure frustration in the Escort in Germany and the lack of feeling that led me to do a bit of a re-think and re-tune.  When you get the feel of the steering cracked, it makes the game so unbelievably rewarding!

I actually laugh out loud at my accidents now, because they generally don't happen frustratingly or uncontrollably now, its because I was driving on such a fine line, maxxed out at 11-10ths and normally have a total train-wreck after getting it wrong in a BIG-big way lol
Haha i now know that feeling. After BIG crash in finland my Co-driver calmly said " Is that a left rear puncture" i laughed and said "We should be in heaven is what it is" :smiley: 
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Now this is some weird shit, managed to get a curved flight path with Escort. Actually not the first time I noticed something like this, but previously it was so mild I shrugged it off. Now I went around that pole like a boss:

https://vid.me/s8fx
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xkevlarx said:
Now this is some weird shit, managed to get a curved flight path with Escort. Actually not the first time I noticed something like this, but previously it was so mild I shrugged it off. Now I went around that pole like a boss:

https://vid.me/s8fx
More and more evidence points to thicker than air aerodynamics..
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They call that a slice or hook in golf.

The thing that gets me, isn't the big jumps, but the smaller ones. I've tried many different suspension setups with the Focus. And on Kontinjarvi, unless you land a certain way in a certain spot, you're going to get a puncture and possibly the temp light coming on before the first split. And then the small jump right after the first split and 3 left, more often than not the temp light will come on if you take it flat out. If the car can't survive even those modest jumps, something isn't right.
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I noticed on last week's daily, for Monday I think, the E30 in finland.  I ran the practise, oh so I guess it was owners club, anyway, it ended on a rise but the replay always showed the wheels getting airborne.
Airborne before the car got to the top of the gentle-ish ramp.  Kept meaning to ask @KickUp about it. 

Short version, on stock setup, the cars springs are launching the vehicle into the air without the track dropping from below it.
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xkevlarx said:
Now this is some weird shit, managed to get a curved flight path with Escort. Actually not the first time I noticed something like this, but previously it was so mild I shrugged it off. Now I went around that pole like a boss:

https://vid.me/s8fx
This has also happened to me with a kitcar, really weird.
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function9 said:
They call that a slice or hook in golf.

The thing that gets me, isn't the big jumps, but the smaller ones. I've tried many different suspension setups with the Focus. And on Kontinjarvi, unless you land a certain way in a certain spot, you're going to get a puncture and possibly the temp light coming on before the first split. And then the small jump right after the first split and 3 left, more often than not the temp light will come on if you take it flat out. If the car can't survive even those modest jumps, something isn't right.
Pretty sure that's a hook. It curves to the left, slices go right.
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JZStudios said:
function9 said:
They call that a slice or hook in golf.

The thing that gets me, isn't the big jumps, but the smaller ones. I've tried many different suspension setups with the Focus. And on Kontinjarvi, unless you land a certain way in a certain spot, you're going to get a puncture and possibly the temp light coming on before the first split. And then the small jump right after the first split and 3 left, more often than not the temp light will come on if you take it flat out. If the car can't survive even those modest jumps, something isn't right.
Pretty sure that's a hook. It curves to the left, slices go right.
Not if you are left handed!
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xkevlarx said:
Now this is some weird shit, managed to get a curved flight path with Escort. Actually not the first time I noticed something like this, but previously it was so mild I shrugged it off. Now I went around that pole like a boss:

https://vid.me/s8fx
Someone forgot to tell the car that you can't drift in mid-air xD
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G37L057 said:
xkevlarx said:
Now this is some weird shit, managed to get a curved flight path with Escort. Actually not the first time I noticed something like this, but previously it was so mild I shrugged it off. Now I went around that pole like a boss:

https://vid.me/s8fx
Someone forgot to tell the car that you can't drift in mid-air xD
Honestly this kinda explains some of the top times ;)
@MrJamieLowes  @KickUp 
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My note to the devs... feedback from the Finland update, using the new Impreza that released alongside the Focus too.

I decided to put this here, because it's important to give feedback on the things that we feel are important in a sim. I only game via driving games, so this stuff is important to me. Really not much point not giving my point of view, because stuff won't get sorted without feedback. I'm also looking at this from a realistic sim angle too. I really think any assists necessary can make any sim handling model useable to all. But I also think when you strip all of those way, and drive it without any assists at all, it should be as realistic as possible. Rallying without realism, isn't rallying.

I like the way DiRT is going...

But I feel it has too much grip, or an issue which is something that make is feel similar. But it's getting there...

I'm talking about Finland here. When you are really pushing hard for decent times and land heavily with the car turning as you do land (for example when learning a stage and pushing the envelope) you achieve landings that could not happen in real life. I'm not talking about how far the car travels. I mean the car isn't being unsettled enough. This is using the vehicle out of the box, stock settings.

If the grip level(?) was more realistic, there would be grave consequences most of those times - which at the moment DiRT is not mirroring. Many times I've saved a massive accident waiting to happen, which wasn't possible to save. Please don't think I'm bashing Codemasters, I'm not. Thank heavens this is shaping up to be the rally sim we've been wanting from the studio for 10 years or more. I've been gaming since the DOS days.

If you watch replays on YouTube of Finland, you can see that the car always settles very quickly, and unrealistic landings sideways are possible, which would result in a wreckage in real life. This is also highlighted when the car is landing and hits a banking at speed too. It's almost like the car is being sucked back onto the ground. That's an exaggeration - but merely is included to reinforce that the cars don't seem to have real inertia/motion compared to real life. I could have uploaded a replay here, but if you view most vids of Finland in DiRT - it's clear to see for the scenario I've mentioned specifically.

So - I'd love to see this option/grip/tyres/suspension/chassis taken even further in the handling model. Which is the whole point of me bothering to write this post today.

Credit where it's due - this is really going in the direction it needs to!!

But - let's not stop half way. I can appreciate why DiRT doesn't want to put the more casual gamer off, but at least put an option in there to go fully realistic. From that point, with as much realism included, the assists can and will maintain a workable balance for those who don't want to have to drive for hours to get a perfect lap etc. Or to crash often, you get my point.

I don't know if the problem is absolute grip on each tyre, tyre flex, or if it's the weight transfer that's not happening correctly. Due to high speed "out of shape" landings issue, I can't tell whether the suspension physics isn't being modelling completely enough? Not enough calculations? I probably think it has more to do with inertia/mass and forces etc. Obviously DiRT is getting a complicated beast, and rightly so, but I think it's probably a couple of areas that aren't having the desired impact on each other. The cars because of this don't seem to "scrub out" under max loads. Understeer. I even think that some of the sharper flat turns can be taken faster than the real car would do on a slippery surface. I'm not going to name corners etc., as I'd hope this is something that the devs are working on - and the die hard sim fans kinda get where I'm coming from.

If you put a real Impreza, no matter what Rally model, on a real skid-pan and monitored it's movement - and recreated that scenario in the game, it would highlight what I mean. I appreciate that's not possible - but my point is, for me, it feels like that is where the issues are. Vehicle mass not affecting the grip enough.

I could video a replay and show you what I mean, but there are plenty of examples of incidents where cars would crash when landing after they go over a jump and start revolving on the horizontal axis, and land heavily at high speed, only to have brakes/opp-lock save them. When cars are spinning on more than one axis (at the same time) the same is also true. Which to me makes sense, like the forces aren't unsettling the car enough. The Finland dev video/Q&A easily reinforces my points.

Yet - when the car is being stopped at a head on collision, that feels more believable. But when the car's mass is in extreme motion/weight transfer, and is also being influenced by a bank, it just feels like all that mass is moving down a new trajectory with a grip level that is too high.

Youtube has lots of replays where the errors/speeds are so great, the mass would just not be correctable in real life in certain situations. But in the game it isn't going far enough yet. Finland, as lovely as it is, really highlights this issue. Because the issues seem to me, to be highlighted by high speed out-of-shape landings, that are possible in Finland. I'm really talking about batting-on, not steady progress, but going for it. This is the scenario that I'm referring to. But logically, I guess what this all means is, that at all times, either grip/tyres/chassis/suspension etc. (wherever the problems are) is not quite there, on every surface, on every tyre type, for every bump/turn/jump. But, as nice as DiRT is at present (it is early access of course), the handling issue I've described is really highlighted by Finland. But the cause/improvements would be beneficial to all other stages, anywhere. It would really make the art of rallying come to life.

Finland really is the extreme in DiRT to date.

I'm not saying it's impossible to crash in DiRT. It is. But I think under the specific circumstances I've mentioned, my description of the issue is very noticeable at Finland. Wales can't really highlight the extremes like Finland can. An option to become very realistic would be appreciated. It's why I bought into DiRT. I hope the dev's can consider further enhanced realism for the greater good. DiRT is coming along great, and I've recommended it to friends too. Like most rally fans, I'm just after making DiRT the best it can be. It should be harder.

I'll even stick my neck out, and logically say, if the devs put 2 identical cars on the same stage, and drove them into each other at speed, whilst executing a handbrake turn - you'd really see that the movement and inertia is quite a way off. But don't run them head on into each other, they need to be glancing off each other and being deflected.

If I'm wrong, I'll donate £20 to a charity of your choice. If I'm right, you donate the £20, and I'll top that up by £10 to £30! Just because that's the kind of guy I am!

What do you say??

:D

AN IDEA FOR LONG TERM DiRT DEVELOPMENT...

If you build - just one short (3 mile?) real laser-scanned stage, and sent a real driver down the real stage in a car - then they did the same stage/car combo in DiRT, the data would highlight where issues are too. No doubt a WRC Top Gun rally driver could tell you what areas within the entire physics aren't right - from feeling alone.

There is probably a couple of months work left until Dirt's early-access ends?

Tarmac/ice I feel are the poorest surfaces in the game at present. Again, any work sorting out grip/tyres/susp/weight transfer etc, would benefit every stage in every country. A win win situation. Ultra realistic handling would be a perfect option in my mind. Your quest for realism is what hooked me this time.

Just as the RALLYX drivers gave feedback on making those conditions improved, I'm looking forward to the next level up from where the Rally project is at currently. As much as I appreciate this journey is far from over, for me the handling is 6.5/7 out of 10 using the new vehicles and updates. The current characteristics are holding DiRT back for now. To me, that's a positive issue, because it can be looked at.

Please don't feel that I think a solution is easy, or quick, I don't imagine for one minute it is.

Interesting times ahead!! Congrats so far...

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Pretty classic case of just going outside the simulations envelope.
The simulation aspects of the game are concentrated on driving rather than flying, so it's pretty easy for them to go screwy when you go over a jump in such an extreme way, 
Flight Simulator isn't very good at simulating how aircraft move around on the ground either.
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function9 said:
JZStudios said:
Pretty sure that's a hook. It curves to the left, slices go right.
I believe a hook hooks back towards the same side you hit from, a slice hooks away. Depends on what side you hit from. But seeing how the mk2 is RHD in DR, you could say it's a slice. ;)
I don't know, I could go either way on that, RHD would be (in my mind) a right hand, which would be a hook to the left... but, since it is opposite the seating, it could be a slice. Further testing would be needed.
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@555WRC  I agree on most of your points.  DR is definitely heading in the right direction, and the V2 physics are a vast step forward.  The cars are feel more nimble, can get a slide going (but the sideways drift always seems to straighten itself a bit too quick), and just feel pretty natural to drive.  When you really push it, it's a real handful and I love it.  I can't really comment on tarmac physics though, I did a 10 stage rally Germany last night with the Focus and even with my CSW turned up to 150% FFB I could barely feel what the car is doing.  It's hard to judge how physics feel with almost no FFB, but I know they are working on it and from their track record with Dirt Rally in EA so far, I know they will make it right. 

The bigger jumps in Finland though, I take them so fast cause I know I can get away with it but in reality that car would rebound so hard I would lose control and hit a tree head on at 120 mph, and with the damage model so forgiving right now I could drive away from it with a smoking radiator that seems to have absolutely no affect on the cars performance.  I think they have modeled puncture/loss of tire brilliantly, it truly does slow you down and the car an absolute bitch to get through the stage but I'd like to see it be a bit more punishing when you have a rally/life ending crash.  Right now you just drive away from it.  Also with the rolls, the car is pretty much unscathed.  I'd love to see a big roll throw doors/hood/parts off the car and have a bigger effect on how it drives.  I know @KickUp mentioned they did make the cars very strong and are looking into it though, so well see how that goes in the future.  Maybe a hardcore or realistic mode (no assists allowed) with it's own separate leaderboards would be a good option, so the more casual can have their fun and the extreme rally sim junky can go full out with the most brutal damage model and more punishing physics.  They actually did this in TOCA Race Driver 2, trying to drive the Formula Ford on realistic or sim mode (can't remember what they called it) is what got me to buy a wheel!

All in all, I'm extremely happy how Dirt Rally is progressing.  Keep up the amazing work Codies!!

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