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How much Camber and Toe settings impact your straight line speed


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By the time I got to the end I forgot what the first part said..  I understand it all how it works... but I have to process it as simple as possible like the difference between torque and bhp... torque is how hard your pushed and bhp is how fast you are pulled...  anything more complex than that it’s witch craft

 

When I had my RS4 with a high revving v8 420 bhp just under 400 lb torque.

And it’s the reason i started going to tracks day

420 bhp although lots is easily. manageable on public roads.: but the torque was brutal.. every time you touched the gas the little car in the distance.  Instantly became very big very quick and when you be push hard in the back it’s hard to stop.. There is such a thing as two  fast for the road

its why suburu and evos are good  street fighters.   They are all bhp.:  that’s why you here about high end supers getting beaten by chavs in their scoobies. But I’ve been on many a track day where they turn expecting to humiliate the big boys... no not on track (unless seriously modded by someone who knows what their doing :.. ) the big boys with European v8  power just push them out the way

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Guess I should have put a TL;DR in the post.

The takeaway is people shy away from adding camber or toe in their setups for fear of losing speed on the straights. Turns out in this game camber and toe practically don't hamper you at all.

If that's indeed the case, you should worry about your handling and tyre wear only when setting your suspension geometry settings. Don't sacrifice any handling benefit they may give you for that ever eluding straight line performance.

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***** thats a solid piece of work there, again @marioho delivering the goods like an f1 god.

it would be nice if the any of the devs could chime in or david greco and give us confirmation/ pointers with these kind of discussions to give validity to your work.

thanks for all your work! 🙂 🙂

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One thing I should have considered (but fortunately the title gives away that it was not in the scope of the test) was braking distances. I was expecting specially rear camber to impact straight line acceleration and, in the same vein, specially front camber to affect braking distances.

That's another caveat.

Anyway now I can keep on recommending people to add some freaking camber and toe to their setups and batter away most of the "yeah but what about my top speed" concerns they might have.

Specially on a controller, it's mind boggling that people flock on that youtube herd of right right left left setups. Yeah, and you're spinning like a ballerina? Who could have imagined that?!

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6 hours ago, marioho said:

Tired of these popular “hmm yummy yummy right right left left top speed me lov it” setups, I did some testing. Wanted to know the influence of camber and toe settings on straight line speed. Just that.

Results, not that great of a difference:

1447642464_TestResults-CamberToeandtopspeed.png.8272798110621accc0098e7183863807.png

For the setup columns, greens are minimal values and yellows are maximum values. Just to help on the visualization.

In line with what I did for wing angle settings and drag here, I proceeded as follows:

  • Time Trial on Monza, doing standing starts from the DRS line (count of 0m, green bar 100% filled) to make use of that lovely Temple of Speed straight. Tried to keep the car close to the white line at the left. Braking was done at the racing line mark, but the measurements were taken at the 810m mark where I was consistently at full throttle. DRS always closed.
  • Monza spec setup (Preset 5), keeping everything at their default values.
  • Traction Control on Full and Automatic Gears in order to do away with player input variability the best I could.

If anyone is interested, here are the screenshots of the relevant telemetry data. The cursor position varies a bit, but that's because the app has 5m steps. I tried to position it on the last step before any braking input. Basically this, but for every stint:

892470474_8)FCmaxRCmaxFTmaxRTmax.thumb.png.2dce8d85d5651e60b911dbbcf9bf194c.png

 

Camber and Toe, come again?

Here are the in-game descriptions for what camber and toe do:

1484515966_CamberToedescriptions.png.ee8542d3fa133a47ba35341a74c2ea0b.png

 

That's perfectly in line with what these settings do in real life, albeit in a very condensed form. This franchise is a simcade, meaning it doesn't simulate to a tee every aspect of race car handling and physics. Everything is in there to some extent, but depending on the feature they're in a toned down form. This is by design, to make the game more accessible. This year we've seen a push for more realism by "unflattening" the kerbs and increasing the grip gamut of different surfaces – rubberized tarmac provides way more grip than painted strips, kerbs, or grass for instance. Did the game hit the mark? How would I know, I've never driven an aero heavy open-wheel car! But it sure feels like a firm step towards a more realistic rendition of F1 racing. 

In theory, camber influences the available grip on straight patches vs curved patches of the track. Low negative camber angles maximize the contact patch on straights, giving you more traction on straight-line acceleration and braking. High negative camber angles maximizes the contact patch when cornering, when the latitudinal forces in action make the car roll to the outside. Camber also has a impact on tyre wear: you will have a more even wear on the tyres by running with optimal camber for that particular track.

The front axle is set with some degree of toe out. In theory. the more toe you run at the front, the higher the car initial turn in response, that readiness to turn. The trade off is straight line performance, tyre wear and, on long sustained corners, the risk of mid-turn understeer. 

The rear axle is set with some degree of toe in. In theory, the more toe you run at the rear, the more stable your car will be specially when accelerating/decelerating. More toe in at the back makes the car more lenient with your throttle application, makes it easier to put power down quickly. The trade off again is straight line performance, tyre wear and, depending on the setup, the initial turn in response.

In a nutshell, camber and toe both offer handling benefits, have an impact on tyre wear and may limit your top speed. This is a balance game, there's no straight out "better" camber or toe setup. Please, don't rush out like many do thinking that the lower the camber and toe the faster your car will be. Can you not think of a scenario where having less tyre on corners can hurt your total lap time? Can you not think of a scenario where having a car less agile to steering inputs can hurt your total lap time? Can you not think of a scenario where having a car too sensitive to abrupt acceleration or too skittish on kerbs can hurt your total lap time?

This is a balance game.

 

What the test attempts to show

That, contrary to popular belief, the game doesn't give much weight to the straight line performance of suspension geometry settings. That good ol' tiring "minimal camber* and minimal toe to not lose speed on the straights" is in need of some revising. 

Surely the test was limited. But I'd bet good money that the general expectation was for a greater speed delta even so.

Seems that the only setting with a significant impact on straight line performance was rear toe in. Makes sense that between the two toe settings this is the most (or only) expressive one, the rear wheels are the driven ones.

I did expect a relatively considerable difference between the two camber extremes though. Even tired as I am of that youtube screamer spiel, I was expecting some delta to show up even in the limited parameters of this short test.

 

What the test does NOT show

Camber and toe settings' impact on the handling. This bears testing too, but I anticipate this is one aspect of racing physics that the game makes a point of simulating to a greater extent. Anecdotally, there have been plenty of scenarios where the final nail on my setup was a significant adjusting of camber to fix oversteer/understeer on medium and high speed corners. I can say the same for front toe adjustments to improve my turn in response specially on low speed corners (hey, Monaco! 💖). The same for rear toe adjustments and slippery corners and better traction on heavy acceleration zones.

Also it says nothing on their impact on tyre wear. Again, it bears testing, but anecdotally I can say there have been cases of significant asymmetrical wear that I managed to ameliorate by either increasing or decreasing the camber. Can say the same about decreasing overall tyre wear by decreasing toe angles on either axles. 

@Ialyrn 

@JOmNrES @KNT2011 @Meza994 @PJTierney @ScaredDuck @ShelbyUSA @Ultra3142

* Yes, the game interface is misleading. No need to go into details again as every year we get a dedicated thread about it, but basically the higher the angle, the greater the camber. And -3.5 is a greater angle than -2.5. The sign is there just to represent orientation. 

 

Edit: More rambling.

Now it could be that the top speed was majorly limited by other factors, e.g. drag. I was running with Preset 5 though, rather minimal wing angles. Maybe if I ever get to it again I'll run with the DRS open.

Also focusing too much on top speed could be a red herring, given that the early acceleration performance is also key in racing. If anyone is really interested, in the Imgur link there's these two graphs with (1) all laps plotted for speed and (2) speed delta. 

464745257_Alllaps-Speed.thumb.png.493d2bf88e9ff5af2552593d6f0bada8.png

239667139_Alllaps-Speeddelta.thumb.png.cb45f35743031ce0bc1de34bf8788f2f.png

For the latter please bear in mind the Y axis. I zoomed in quite a lot. The differences you're seeing are for 1-2 kph tops. 

Great use of telemetry - and why it needs to be a more important part of the game  - like it is for real F1 teams. There are several well done external packages - but reliant on the quality of the data from Codemasters who needs to focus on things such as real ride height. There are two particularly good packages that I am aware of - one by @LonelyRacer and the other by @Ender0042 which is represented in @marioho excellent post above. Thanks to all three!

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8 hours ago, marioho said:

Tired of these popular “hmm yummy yummy right right left left top speed me lov it” setups, I did some testing. Wanted to know the influence of camber and toe settings on straight line speed. Just that.

Results, not that great of a difference:

1447642464_TestResults-CamberToeandtopspeed.png.8272798110621accc0098e7183863807.png

For the setup columns, greens are minimal values and yellows are maximum values. Just to help on the visualization.

In line with what I did for wing angle settings and drag here, I proceeded as follows:

  • Time Trial on Monza, doing standing starts from the DRS line (count of 0m, green bar 100% filled) to make use of that lovely Temple of Speed straight. Tried to keep the car close to the white line at the left. Braking was done at the racing line mark, but the measurements were taken at the 810m mark where I was consistently at full throttle. DRS always closed.
  • Monza spec setup (Preset 5), keeping everything at their default values.
  • Traction Control on Full and Automatic Gears in order to do away with player input variability the best I could.

If anyone is interested, here are the screenshots of the relevant telemetry data. The cursor position varies a bit, but that's because the app has 5m steps. I tried to position it on the last step before any braking input. Basically this, but for every stint:

892470474_8)FCmaxRCmaxFTmaxRTmax.thumb.png.2dce8d85d5651e60b911dbbcf9bf194c.png

 

Camber and Toe, come again?

Here are the in-game descriptions for what camber and toe do:

1484515966_CamberToedescriptions.png.ee8542d3fa133a47ba35341a74c2ea0b.png

 

That's perfectly in line with what these settings do in real life, albeit in a very condensed form. This franchise is a simcade, meaning it doesn't simulate to a tee every aspect of race car handling and physics. Everything is in there to some extent, but depending on the feature they're in a toned down form. This is by design, to make the game more accessible. This year we've seen a push for more realism by "unflattening" the kerbs and increasing the grip gamut of different surfaces – rubberized tarmac provides way more grip than painted strips, kerbs, or grass for instance. Did the game hit the mark? How would I know, I've never driven an aero heavy open-wheel car! But it sure feels like a firm step towards a more realistic rendition of F1 racing. 

In theory, camber influences the available grip on straight patches vs curved patches of the track. Low negative camber angles maximize the contact patch on straights, giving you more traction on straight-line acceleration and braking. High negative camber angles maximizes the contact patch when cornering, when the latitudinal forces in action make the car roll to the outside. Camber also has a impact on tyre wear: you will have a more even wear on the tyres by running with optimal camber for that particular track.

The front axle is set with some degree of toe out. In theory. the more toe you run at the front, the higher the car initial turn in response, that readiness to turn. The trade off is straight line performance, tyre wear and, on long sustained corners, the risk of mid-turn understeer. 

The rear axle is set with some degree of toe in. In theory, the more toe you run at the rear, the more stable your car will be specially when accelerating/decelerating. More toe in at the back makes the car more lenient with your throttle application, makes it easier to put power down quickly. The trade off again is straight line performance, tyre wear and, depending on the setup, the initial turn in response.

In a nutshell, camber and toe both offer handling benefits, have an impact on tyre wear and may limit your top speed. This is a balance game, there's no straight out "better" camber or toe setup. Please, don't rush out like many do thinking that the lower the camber and toe the faster your car will be. Can you not think of a scenario where having less tyre on corners can hurt your total lap time? Can you not think of a scenario where having a car less agile to steering inputs can hurt your total lap time? Can you not think of a scenario where having a car too sensitive to abrupt acceleration or too skittish on kerbs can hurt your total lap time?

This is a balance game.

 

What the test attempts to show

That, contrary to popular belief, the game doesn't give much weight to the straight line performance of suspension geometry settings. That good ol' tiring "minimal camber* and minimal toe to not lose speed on the straights" is in need of some revising. 

Surely the test was limited. But I'd bet good money that the general expectation was for a greater speed delta even so.

Seems that the only setting with a significant impact on straight line performance was rear toe in. Makes sense that between the two toe settings this is the most (or only) expressive one, the rear wheels are the driven ones.

I did expect a relatively considerable difference between the two camber extremes though. Even tired as I am of that youtube screamer spiel, I was expecting some delta to show up even in the limited parameters of this short test.

 

What the test does NOT show

Camber and toe settings' impact on the handling. This bears testing too, but I anticipate this is one aspect of racing physics that the game makes a point of simulating to a greater extent. Anecdotally, there have been plenty of scenarios where the final nail on my setup was a significant adjusting of camber to fix oversteer/understeer on medium and high speed corners. I can say the same for front toe adjustments to improve my turn in response specially on low speed corners (hey, Monaco! 💖). The same for rear toe adjustments and slippery corners and better traction on heavy acceleration zones.

Also it says nothing on their impact on tyre wear. Again, it bears testing, but anecdotally I can say there have been cases of significant asymmetrical wear that I managed to ameliorate by either increasing or decreasing the camber. Can say the same about decreasing overall tyre wear by decreasing toe angles on either axles. 

@Ialyrn 

@JOmNrES @KNT2011 @Meza994 @PJTierney @ScaredDuck @ShelbyUSA @Ultra3142

* Yes, the game interface is misleading. No need to go into details again as every year we get a dedicated thread about it, but basically the higher the angle, the greater the camber. And -3.5 is a greater angle than -2.5. The sign is there just to represent orientation. 

 

Edit: More rambling.

Now it could be that the top speed was majorly limited by other factors, e.g. drag. I was running with Preset 5 though, rather minimal wing angles. Maybe if I ever get to it again I'll run with the DRS open.

Also focusing too much on top speed could be a red herring, given that the early acceleration performance is also key in racing. If anyone is really interested, in the Imgur link there's these two graphs with (1) all laps plotted for speed and (2) speed delta. 

464745257_Alllaps-Speed.thumb.png.493d2bf88e9ff5af2552593d6f0bada8.png

239667139_Alllaps-Speeddelta.thumb.png.cb45f35743031ce0bc1de34bf8788f2f.png

For the latter please bear in mind the Y axis. I zoomed in quite a lot. The differences you're seeing are for 1-2 kph tops. 

Love reading your posts on Setup @marioho - thank you 👍🏽

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6 hours ago, marioho said:

One thing I should have considered (but fortunately the title gives away that it was not in the scope of the test) was braking distances. I was expecting specially rear camber to impact straight line acceleration and, in the same vein, specially front camber to affect braking distances.

That's another caveat.

Anyway now I can keep on recommending people to add some freaking camber and toe to their setups and batter away most of the "yeah but what about my top speed" concerns they might have.

Specially on a controller, it's mind boggling that people flock on that youtube herd of right right left left setups. Yeah, and you're spinning like a ballerina? Who could have imagined that?!

Still asleep but are you saying right right with camber and left left with toe:..  But those settings don’t annoy me...lwhat still annoys me is suspension sliders are wrong:.. you cant soften rear suspension or rollbar...  With suspension set up how it is in balance should guarantee within reason your not gunna lose the rear in tight corner... they need to go back to basics 

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On 9/3/2021 at 4:24 PM, marioho said:

Tired of these popular “hmm yummy yummy right right left left top speed me lov it” setups, I did some testing. Wanted to know the influence of camber and toe settings on straight line speed. Just that.

Results, not that great of a difference:

1447642464_TestResults-CamberToeandtopspeed.png.8272798110621accc0098e7183863807.png

For the setup columns, greens are minimal values and yellows are maximum values. Just to help on the visualization.

In line with what I did for wing angle settings and drag here, I proceeded as follows:

  • Time Trial on Monza, doing standing starts from the DRS line (count of 0m, green bar 100% filled) to make use of that lovely Temple of Speed straight. Tried to keep the car close to the white line at the left. Braking was done at the racing line mark, but the measurements were taken at the 810m mark where I was consistently at full throttle. DRS always closed.
  • Monza spec setup (Preset 5), keeping everything at their default values.
  • Traction Control on Full and Automatic Gears in order to do away with player input variability the best I could.

If anyone is interested, here are the screenshots of the relevant telemetry data. The cursor position varies a bit, but that's because the app has 5m steps. I tried to position it on the last step before any braking input. Basically this, but for every stint:

892470474_8)FCmaxRCmaxFTmaxRTmax.thumb.png.2dce8d85d5651e60b911dbbcf9bf194c.png

 

Camber and Toe, come again?

Here are the in-game descriptions for what camber and toe do:

1484515966_CamberToedescriptions.png.ee8542d3fa133a47ba35341a74c2ea0b.png

 

That's perfectly in line with what these settings do in real life, albeit in a very condensed form. This franchise is a simcade, meaning it doesn't simulate to a tee every aspect of race car handling and physics. Everything is in there to some extent, but depending on the feature they're in a toned down form. This is by design, to make the game more accessible. This year we've seen a push for more realism by "unflattening" the kerbs and increasing the grip gamut of different surfaces – rubberized tarmac provides way more grip than painted strips, kerbs, or grass for instance. Did the game hit the mark? How would I know, I've never driven an aero heavy open-wheel car! But it sure feels like a firm step towards a more realistic rendition of F1 racing. 

In theory, camber influences the available grip on straight patches vs curved patches of the track. Low negative camber angles maximize the contact patch on straights, giving you more traction on straight-line acceleration and braking. High negative camber angles maximizes the contact patch when cornering, when the latitudinal forces in action make the car roll to the outside. Camber also has a impact on tyre wear: you will have a more even wear on the tyres by running with optimal camber for that particular track.

The front axle is set with some degree of toe out. In theory. the more toe you run at the front, the higher the car initial turn in response, that readiness to turn. The trade off is straight line performance, tyre wear and, on long sustained corners, the risk of mid-turn understeer. 

The rear axle is set with some degree of toe in. In theory, the more toe you run at the rear, the more stable your car will be specially when accelerating/decelerating. More toe in at the back makes the car more lenient with your throttle application, makes it easier to put power down quickly. The trade off again is straight line performance, tyre wear and, depending on the setup, the initial turn in response.

In a nutshell, camber and toe both offer handling benefits, have an impact on tyre wear and may limit your top speed. This is a balance game, there's no straight out "better" camber or toe setup. Please, don't rush out like many do thinking that the lower the camber and toe the faster your car will be. Can you not think of a scenario where having less tyre on corners can hurt your total lap time? Can you not think of a scenario where having a car less agile to steering inputs can hurt your total lap time? Can you not think of a scenario where having a car too sensitive to abrupt acceleration or too skittish on kerbs can hurt your total lap time?

This is a balance game.

 

What the test attempts to show

That, contrary to popular belief, the game doesn't give much weight to the straight line performance of suspension geometry settings. That good ol' tiring "minimal camber* and minimal toe to not lose speed on the straights" is in need of some revising. 

Surely the test was limited. But I'd bet good money that the general expectation was for a greater speed delta even so.

Seems that the only setting with a significant impact on straight line performance was rear toe in. Makes sense that between the two toe settings this is the most (or only) expressive one, the rear wheels are the driven ones.

I did expect a relatively considerable difference between the two camber extremes though. Even tired as I am of that youtube screamer spiel, I was expecting some delta to show up even in the limited parameters of this short test.

 

What the test does NOT show

Camber and toe settings' impact on the handling. This bears testing too, but I anticipate this is one aspect of racing physics that the game makes a point of simulating to a greater extent. Anecdotally, there have been plenty of scenarios where the final nail on my setup was a significant adjusting of camber to fix oversteer/understeer on medium and high speed corners. I can say the same for front toe adjustments to improve my turn in response specially on low speed corners (hey, Monaco! 💖). The same for rear toe adjustments and slippery corners and better traction on heavy acceleration zones.

Also it says nothing on their impact on tyre wear. Again, it bears testing, but anecdotally I can say there have been cases of significant asymmetrical wear that I managed to ameliorate by either increasing or decreasing the camber. Can say the same about decreasing overall tyre wear by decreasing toe angles on either axles. 

@Ialyrn 

@JOmNrES @KNT2011 @Meza994 @PJTierney @ScaredDuck @ShelbyUSA @Ultra3142

* Yes, the game interface is misleading. No need to go into details again as every year we get a dedicated thread about it, but basically the higher the angle, the greater the camber. And -3.5 is a greater angle than -2.5. The sign is there just to represent orientation. 

 

Edit: More rambling.

Now it could be that the top speed was majorly limited by other factors, e.g. drag. I was running with Preset 5 though, rather minimal wing angles. Maybe if I ever get to it again I'll run with the DRS open.

Also focusing too much on top speed could be a red herring, given that the early acceleration performance is also key in racing. If anyone is really interested, in the Imgur link there's these two graphs with (1) all laps plotted for speed and (2) speed delta. 

464745257_Alllaps-Speed.thumb.png.493d2bf88e9ff5af2552593d6f0bada8.png

239667139_Alllaps-Speeddelta.thumb.png.cb45f35743031ce0bc1de34bf8788f2f.png

For the latter please bear in mind the Y axis. I zoomed in quite a lot. The differences you're seeing are for 1-2 kph tops. 

Mate, you did it again. That is why I have you in my beta user group.

We were hoping this release was going to be moving more towards a Sim. We use all these highly smart tools to try to understand. At the end of the day and the great work by @marioho Codemasters has created an very good (at best) allusion of a Sim. I guess SimCade is the best word. Sad. I believe its time to move on to iRacing. 

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Interesting to know that the difference of topspeed related to different toe and camber settings are almost nothing in this game (instead of real life, I guess). But as you said, the most effect seems to occur in case of grip and tire wear. By the way, have you noticed any differences in case of tire temperature? 

In theory, increasing toe should result higher tire temps. But is that implemented in the game or is this effect missing like the missing topspeed difference? But maybe your test with driving on a streight line is to short for noticing any differences here. The biggest difference in case of tire temps I have noticed with changing tire pressures. 

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@DonBlanko my guess is that it does, as it should. To what degree of realism I don't know. Tyre wear has often been balanced by adjusting suspension geometry to me. And in this case a wrong camber or a too aggressive toe will result in higher temps first.

@Jamborinio the two last pics show data for all the laps and you can visualize acceleration in there. They overlap quite nicely. Some testing should be done to find if they (especially camber) impact on braking distances, as in theory it should, but I wasn't too interested in that. It was just the Youtube "meta" of "right right left left to maximize top speed" that was really grinding my gears.

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18 hours ago, marioho said:

@DonBlanko my guess is that it does, as it should. To what degree of realism I don't know. Tyre wear has often been balanced by adjusting suspension geometry to me. And in this case a wrong camber or a too aggressive toe will result in higher temps first.

@Jamborinio the two last pics show data for all the laps and you can visualize acceleration in there. They overlap quite nicely. Some testing should be done to find if they (especially camber) impact on braking distances, as in theory it should, but I wasn't too interested in that. It was just the Youtube "meta" of "right right left left to maximize top speed" that was really grinding my gears.

Well, I think I've found a reason to visit the forum more often, finally someone deeply involved in telemetry data and car dynamics like me...we are the fools mate! :)

I had noticed the same story "left left right right" and yeah it's so annoying as ppl doesn't seems to bother to try and test or understand what is there behinf car physic..."hey TRL xxxx on youtube say so!" it's like they are reading the gospel or the bible. Did some test too when the game come out and yep it's exactly how you showed...great stuff.

This series is still simcade (and how it couldn't be as the majority of the player drive with offset tv pod? This is not an insult! It's just a fact and everybody should drive\play as they prefear for sure!), far to be a simulation but did a few step in the right direction to me.

Still very bothered about the "smoke" that there's behind the physic of this game...Still no sense "per click" car parameters, still no sense ride height that should be crucial for the underbody downforce and we have still no idea how this is simulated as it seems there's no really benefits in aero load (and the related switched CoP) and it's just there to bottoming out or not...like if I could understand if a value of 5 clicks for rear suspension match with a 6 clicks of rear ride height...pure nosense! 

The developers for this 2021 game have set springs and arbs rating (N/m) with very lower value respect to F1 2020...Now the old 1 clik suspension is now the 11 click suspension (220 N\m to be precise) plus the front and rear springs have the same value (2020 rear springrs were much stronger compared to the front ones). Has this made an impact to the setup? Doesn't seems so!

Again what's the point to simulate heave spring (or 3rd spring if you prefear) and dampers if I can't interact with these settings in the setup? Why it's the developers that choose a XXXX value and setting for MY dampers??

Dampers are exceptional for fine tune the setup...as they control the VELOCITY of the load trasnfer, how fast or slow a spring (well we should start to talk about torsion bars in F1!!) release the energy they've stored...but we are not allowed to intercat with them!

"We’ve got a team of physics guys who are always looking at ways to improve, and each year they’ll pick some of the areas that I think that we can do more with. David Greco, our lead handling expert," has got some great ideas that he wants to improve on as well.

“It’s funny you mentioned that because that’s how they’ve remodelled the bump stops. You are more likely to hit the bump stops [over a kerb]. So that’s the new suspension model at work."

“There are also changes to the tyre model as well. So, it’s now pushed a little bit closer to reality again."

All Lee Mather quotes...nice to hear you have some guys working on the physic Lee...they've remodelled bump stops great! Oh it seems they have set them very low as we could easily hit them now (which it means suspension will suddenly stop to compress and spit you out of the kerbs)...oh wait...we can't set them up freely in the game? Thank you for choosing the value for me! Meh...

Tyre model...another mistery...how many years since they've introduced the surface and carcass temperature? At least a few...why then don't REALLY improve tyre model giving us not the "generic" surface temp but the real IMO (inner, medium, outer) temperature? That would really help us in set the right amount of camber, so that if my outer temp it's higher and my tyre has some wear I can set a more negative camber to help having a larger contact patch during corners so that the temps will be more equal in the IMO?

Ok ok i stop to complain now sorry! F1 2021 it is still enjoyable after all...we just need to cope with what we got and get the best out of it! 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Alastre said:

Well, I think I've found a reason to visit the forum more often, finally someone deeply involved in telemetry data and car dynamics like me...we are the fools mate! 🙂

I had noticed the same story "left left right right" and yeah it's so annoying as ppl doesn't seems to bother to try and test or understand what is there behinf car physic..."hey TRL xxxx on youtube say so!" it's like they are reading the gospel or the bible. Did some test too when the game come out and yep it's exactly how you showed...great stuff.

This series is still simcade (and how it couldn't be as the majority of the player drive with offset tv pod? This is not an insult! It's just a fact and everybody should drive\play as they prefear for sure!), far to be a simulation but did a few step in the right direction to me.

Still very bothered about the "smoke" that there's behind the physic of this game...Still no sense "per click" car parameters, still no sense ride height that should be crucial for the underbody downforce and we have still no idea how this is simulated as it seems there's no really benefits in aero load (and the related switched CoP) and it's just there to bottoming out or not...like if I could understand if a value of 5 clicks for rear suspension match with a 6 clicks of rear ride height...pure nosense! 

The developers for this 2021 game have set springs and arbs rating (N/m) with very lower value respect to F1 2020...Now the old 1 clik suspension is now the 11 click suspension (220 N\m to be precise) plus the front and rear springs have the same value (2020 rear springrs were much stronger compared to the front ones). Has this made an impact to the setup? Doesn't seems so!

Again what's the point to simulate heave spring (or 3rd spring if you prefear) and dampers if I can't interact with these settings in the setup? Why it's the developers that choose a XXXX value and setting for MY dampers??

Dampers are exceptional for fine tune the setup...as they control the VELOCITY of the load trasnfer, how fast or slow a spring (well we should start to talk about torsion bars in F1!!) release the energy they've stored...but we are not allowed to intercat with them!

"We’ve got a team of physics guys who are always looking at ways to improve, and each year they’ll pick some of the areas that I think that we can do more with. David Greco, our lead handling expert," has got some great ideas that he wants to improve on as well.

“It’s funny you mentioned that because that’s how they’ve remodelled the bump stops. You are more likely to hit the bump stops [over a kerb]. So that’s the new suspension model at work."

“There are also changes to the tyre model as well. So, it’s now pushed a little bit closer to reality again."

All Lee Mather quotes...nice to hear you have some guys working on the physic Lee...they've remodelled bump stops great! Oh it seems they have set them very low as we could easily hit them now (which it means suspension will suddenly stop to compress and spit you out of the kerbs)...oh wait...we can't set them up freely in the game? Thank you for choosing the value for me! Meh...

Tyre model...another mistery...how many years since they've introduced the surface and carcass temperature? At least a few...why then don't REALLY improve tyre model giving us not the "generic" surface temp but the real IMO (inner, medium, outer) temperature? That would really help us in set the right amount of camber, so that if my outer temp it's higher and my tyre has some wear I can set a more negative camber to help having a larger contact patch during corners so that the temps will be more equal in the IMO?

Ok ok i stop to complain now sorry! F1 2021 it is still enjoyable after all...we just need to cope with what we got and get the best out of it! 

 

 

 

 

Thoughtful post!! The weakest part of the F1 games has been telemetry. Bottoming out as a key example. Using the UDP data there is no way to understand whether this occurred because the ride height is an abstraction not a real number, so calculations are impossible. 

Half the time real F1 cars are on the track during a race weekend the entire focus is on telemetry (practice sessions). In the race the car's telemetry is being constantly tracked as well to understand the state of performance of the car in order to determine possible changes in strategy. Telemetry is a core part of F1 and that is evident by the huge amount to resources teams put into it. This is clearly why Codemasters struggles with how to represent practice sessions - because without telemetry they can't get to the core reason for those sessions. 

However, I do think Codemasters has improved the handling this year, and that has made the game better, and more engaging. And when you apply better techniques (for example after watching Driver61 videos) you actually get better times - a positive reflection on the game. But to create a complete F1 environment the game needs telemetry. 

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34 minutes ago, dwin20 said:

However, I do think Codemasters has improved the handling this year, and that has made the game better, and more engaging.

Not in its entirety.. The tires give waaaay less grip on high speed than in reality (and last year) which is why the high speed corners have been additionally difficult to drive, also with the AI bug.. But best example being Zandvoort turn 7.. Almost flat in RL qualifying and not even close or even achievable by any amounts of downforce, just the tires make it possible (or 100kg less weight lol)

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12 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

Not in its entirety.. The tires give waaaay less grip on high speed than in reality (and last year) which is why the high speed corners have been additionally difficult to drive, also with the AI bug.. But best example being Zandvoort turn 7.. Almost flat in RL qualifying and not even close or even achievable by any amounts of downforce, just the tires make it possible (or 100kg less weight lol)

Did read somewhere on here reduced downforce this year Was by design 

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13 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

Did read somewhere on here reduced downforce this year Was by design 

But its not the downforce.. Its the grip of the tires at maximum load.. decreased by 40% compared to last year..

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4 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

But its not the downforce.. Its the grip of the tires at maximum load.. decreased by 40% compared to last year..

I did not know that... I just assumed it was due to them reducing downforce... but thinking about it wheelspin is definitely more apparent this year.  

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2 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

I did not know that... I just assumed it was due to them reducing downforce... but thinking about it wheelspin is definitely more apparent this year.  

The downforce change is good and yes definitely less grip on the rear but stuff like Pouhon or Zanvoort T7 is entirely on the tires (front tires mostly) just not having the grip to turn in further

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19 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

The downforce change is good and yes definitely less grip on the rear but stuff like Pouhon or Zanvoort T7 is entirely on the tires (front tires mostly) just not having the grip to turn in further

I do 16 race seasons in my team and don’t pick zanvoort for that reason... 

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36 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

But its not the downforce.. Its the grip of the tires at maximum load.. decreased by 40% compared to last year..

Interesting - how did you calculate that number? Would like to be able to use that equation!  Thanks!

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