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Noticed in the patch notes for 1.10 a tweak to the handling model happening after 'AI retraining'. Is this something that happens automatically in-game? will happen after following patch? can somebody explain please? thanks

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This is a great video for the work they put on the AI for Forza, but very much applicable for any racing game. Main difference being the parameters for the AI behavior will be given by the devs directly or the behavior itself (like how the AI corners) will be hard wired by the devs, while on Forza games they use machine learning to teach the AI based on players' driving.

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7 hours ago, Bojote said:

Noticed in the patch notes for 1.10 a tweak to the handling model happening after 'AI retraining'. Is this something that happens automatically in-game? will happen after following patch? can somebody explain please? thanks

My reading of Barry's post was that it will be in a future update.

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So let me get this straight the latest patch does not effect the Ai in any way ?   I was going to post that I felt the Ai had changed in someway because when this game first came out everyone was raving about how improved the Ai was me included , players seeing the Ai spin out etc , but I have to say as Ive got deeper into the my team career the Ai dont make half as many mistakes some races they are on rails , I see retirements du to mechanical failure but thats it.

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Never officially confirmed by Codemasters, but yeah, between initial release and the first few patches, the AI don’t make mistakes anymore. I don’t understand why Codemasters changed this. It was so nice seeing an AI driver spin every once and a while. Heck, it even was so realistic that I had a race once where Bottas hit both Red Bulls. Now, they just drive like on rails again, never making a mistake that makes them spin out.

They even made the AI again like in F1 2019/ F1 2020, they don’t back out when you squeeze them a bit on the straights. No they keep going in a straight line, making you spin.

Edited by DutchRacer87
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7 minutes ago, DutchRacer87 said:

Never officially confirmed by Codemasters, but yeah, between initial release and the first few patches, the AI don’t make mistakes anymore. I don’t understand why Codemasters changed this. It was so nice seeing an AI driver spin every once and a while. Heck, it even was so realistic that I had a race once where Bottas hit both Red Bulls. Now, they just drive like on rails again, never making a mistake that makes them spin out.

They even made the AI again like in F1 2019/ F1 2020, they don’t back out when you squeeze them a bit on the straights. No they keep going in a straight line, making you spin.

I dont get that , why would you make the game more boring ? I know nothing about programming but surely some sort of random algorithm can be thrown in there to make the Ai less like robots and make a few mistakes. I like the feel of thinking that you may still be able to win because the Ai in front of you may make a mistake , I dont get it , i just dont.

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34 minutes ago, Madmaz116 said:

I dont get that , why would you make the game more boring ? I know nothing about programming but surely some sort of random algorithm can be thrown in there to make the Ai less like robots and make a few mistakes. I like the feel of thinking that you may still be able to win because the Ai in front of you may make a mistake , I dont get it , i just dont.

It's generally when a couple offf people complain . And that's all it is a couple of people . The. Change it to please the few . But generally speaking . As a player who has bought every F1 game . It seems as if repeats every year . Game releases . With good A1 . Bit the. It seems to change over the patches . To a worse version . I'm pretty sure  every year . The same post . Asking the same thing why has the A1 changed . My guess is the hive a more aggressive A1 at release . Then once the sales are done . The tone the A1 down . . 

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32 minutes ago, PaulLynch said:

It's generally when a couple offf people complain . And that's all it is a couple of people . The. Change it to please the few . But generally speaking . As a player who has bought every F1 game . It seems as if repeats every year . Game releases . With good A1 . Bit the. It seems to change over the patches . To a worse version . I'm pretty sure  every year . The same post . Asking the same thing why has the A1 changed . My guess is the hive a more aggressive A1 at release . Then once the sales are done . The tone the A1 down . . 

so a few complain and they change it , but what about the few that complain its been changed ?  CM?  I remember similar comments being made about Project cars 2  and Ian bell at the time said that sort of thing can be changed in an instant ... why dont they implement some sort of silder whereby the player can choose how stupid he wants Ai ?

Edited by Madmaz116
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Just don't buy the game from now on. This is the first version I've bought in a long time and it's because the AI made mistakes. If this disappears it's just a bugged, rushed and lesser version of f1 2020. I certainly won't be buying any future versions of this game and I would ask everyone else to really think about buying any f1 game from Codemasters until they actually release a game that isn't an alpha or beta version of the game. Unfortunately the only way they will listen is if they don't sell their product

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the mistakes were too silly earlier on, just weaving and spinning out. The mistakes needed to be coded to be more about late braking and crashing into each other, clipping wheels and spinning out or being too rough wheel to wheel and causing damage, not silly weaving and spinning out or losing it under throttle input randomly. Shouldn't be no mistakes at all though.

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28 minutes ago, JoeMercersWay said:

the mistakes were too silly earlier on, just weaving and spinning out. The mistakes needed to be coded to be more about late braking and crashing into each other, clipping wheels and spinning out or being too rough wheel to wheel and causing damage, not silly weaving and spinning out or losing it under throttle input randomly. Shouldn't be no mistakes at all though.

Well i sort of agree , but this is a game not real life , these sorts of games need to throw up drama now and then , gamers like that sort of thing,  unless your a purist and nothing but the real thing will do. But give me drama in a racing game anytime.

 

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9 minutes ago, Madmaz116 said:

Well i sort of agree , but this is a game not real life , these sorts of games need to throw up drama now and then , gamers like that sort of thing,  unless your a purist and nothing but the real thing will do. But give me drama in a racing game anytime.

 

I get that, but when you're engrossed in a race and then the AI does something completely stupid it takes you out of the immersion.

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Just now, JoeMercersWay said:

I get that, but when you're engrossed in a race and then the AI does something completely stupid it takes you out of the immersion.

I get that too , but if that happned to me I would put that down to "human" error ..ie the AI made a mistake , like a human could

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I agree that if it's something so stupid it may wreck it... But if the ai makes a mistake because it's wet or you're putting constant pressure on them .. It would be great if they did make mistakes. There's barely a race in real life without mistakes being made and definitely all cars are not on rails like the AI is. I liked how the AI made mistakes in this version (even if it was silly mistake? and as I've already said, would it drastically decrease the sense of realism just chasing ai cars that make absolutely no mistakes. I agree the sort of mistakes should be late braking, etc though. My two cents worth anyway. 

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What exactly is going to come in the AI retraining patch? Is it going to go back to how it was before with AI making mistakes or it is going to address the AI being too fast in certain corners issue? 

 

Is there a thread anywhere that I may have missed? 

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6 minutes ago, Sonic6L said:

What exactly is going to come in the AI retraining patch? Is it going to go back to how it was before with AI making mistakes or it is going to address the AI being too fast in certain corners issue? 

 

Is there a thread anywhere that I may have missed? 

i'd like to know this as well

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1 hour ago, JoeMercersWay said:

the mistakes were too silly earlier on, just weaving and spinning out. The mistakes needed to be coded to be more about late braking and crashing into each other, clipping wheels and spinning out or being too rough wheel to wheel and causing damage, not silly weaving and spinning out or losing it under throttle input randomly. Shouldn't be no mistakes at all though.

I can name so many examples from real life where drivers have spun without colliding with someone. Remember all those Vettel spins? Not to mention a lot of drivers spin in practice and quali as well, yet in the game they hardly ever do.

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16 minutes ago, Sonic6L said:

What exactly is going to come in the AI retraining patch? Is it going to go back to how it was before with AI making mistakes or it is going to address the AI being too fast in certain corners issue? 

 

Is there a thread anywhere that I may have missed? 

I believe it's to go with an upcoming change to the car's handling model for players. This is what initially became public through the debate about an eSports only build ruining top level leagues.

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2 minutes ago, DutchRacer87 said:

I can name so many examples from real life where drivers have spun without colliding with someone. Remember all those Vettel spins? Not to mention a lot of drivers spin in practice and quali as well, yet in the game they hardly ever do.

Totally agree ..come on CM put it back in !!... please 🙏

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5 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

I believe it's to go with an upcoming change to the car's handling model for players. This is what initially became public through the debate about an eSports only build ruining top level leagues.

That doesn't really answer either question or provide any more insight. 

The only AI issue I'm aware of that's being investigated/potentially fixed in an upcoming patch is the below:

 

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15 minutes ago, Sonic6L said:

That doesn't really answer either question or provide any more insight. 

Well my point was it was neither of the options you suggested. I'd suggest you check back to the earlier threads if you want to find out more but I'm pretty sure it doesn't relate to the fast cornering.

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1 minute ago, Ultra3142 said:

Well my point was it was neither of the options you suggested. I'd suggest you check back to the earlier threads if you want to find out more but I'm pretty sure it doesn't relate to the fast cornering.

As I said earlier:

Quote

Is there a thread anywhere that I may have missed? 

Can you link me a thread that you're talking about? 

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1 hour ago, Sonic6L said:

What exactly is going to come in the AI retraining patch? Is it going to go back to how it was before with AI making mistakes or it is going to address the AI being too fast in certain corners issue? 

 

Is there a thread anywhere that I may have missed? 

There's basically two sets of behavior for the AI in virtually any game:

  • AI making choices;
  • AI on rails, following a pre-determined path.

The video I linked earlier throw some light in the process but whatever.

In racing games there's a mix of the two going on all the time.

For some stretches the AI will be driving the car for real, following a set of parameters – what they're aiming for and what they can do with throttle, braking and steering to accomplish that. So they get a huge tree of choices with weighed possibilities for everything: defending a position, attempting an overtake, reacting to an accident ahead, getting a good line. In those decision trees there will be bad decisions too and the AI will spontaneously make mistakes. And they will be vulnerable too, they'll spin and crash if you punt them.

For a select few of stretches that decision tree is severely pruned and the AI behaves as if on rails. Ever noticed how you bump into an AI car in this game or other racing sims and they unsettles a bit just to straighten out quickly again and carry on with their line as if nothing happened? Yeah, that's the AI on rails, following a pre-determined set of parameters for their lines, throttle, braking and so on. Hook your session to a telemetry app and maybe you'll spot moments where the AI seems to be inputting a certain amount of steering and throttle, but their line and their speed do not match with said inputs. The AI is pretty much following a pre-determined path.

AI is a seriously demanding task, resource wise. You'll see games sacrificing a lot of visual fidelity just to reserve the processing power needed for the system to run the AI programming for every AI car. To this day, most games still limit the AI to keep focus on one car only – ever found yourself chilling minding your own business just to get the AI to blindly punt you? Yeah, their focus wasn't on you at the time and they did not even know you're there. That's for racing games (or games with cars, like open world games) in general. It's no coincidence that the AI feels robotic and in line whenever the session is set for a rain, as now the pool of resources available shrinks a bit to account for the extra elements the game gets for a rainy visual.

Anyway, AI retraining touches all that. Including the AI behavior on fast corners, I bet. What goes on in there, most likely, is that the devs pre-determined a set of speed, throttle and lines for them to follow in those corners and this set varies with the difficulty level selected by the player. It's unbalanced and in some scenarios the behavior is off by a significant margin – unrealistic speed, unrealistic traction, etc.

AI retraining is that. Going over the decision trees and the hard-wired behavior.

Whenever there's a new circuit introduced or a change to the physics or handling characteristics of the game, the AI will be retrained. It needs to learn how to drive the new circuit, getting the decision trees mapped to it for a realistic behavior. It needs to be revised so that it acts accordingly to how the kerbs unsettles the ride now, to how much and how fast the weight gets shifted around on the car, to how the grip changes when going over from tarmac to astroturf, etc.

With the performance update obviously the AI behavior changed. Pretty soon someone will probably compare the game files pre and post patch to highlight what got changed in this performance, but most likely they were overall downforce levels for all the different components, drag levels, etc. Some work got to be done to adjust the AI decision trees and baked-in parameters to the new characteristics of the cars. However the bulk of the retraining is still to come, as stated by Codemasters.

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@Sonic6L I've just remembered that BarryBL posted the answer to your question here 🙂.

On 9/13/2021 at 11:43 AM, BarryBL said:

Additionally, we have made some minor tweaks to the handling model to remove an unrealistic element with low-speed cornering, which will be coming into the game as soon as the AI retraining has been completed.

 

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