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ABS way too overpowered


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At least, if you do 90% of your manual breaking right, you should be on par or slightly ahead of the brake assist users. Thats hard enough to manage in longer sessions.

Sure, for casuals or controller users there has got to be some kind of assistance to get them around the course, but it should be noticeably slower than breaking manually. As for the recorded trial times, times achieved without assists should have their own, seperate listing, that would be rewarding enough.

Edited by Schneehase
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18 hours ago, Schneehase said:

At least, if you do 90% of your manual breaking right, you should be on par or slightly ahead of the brake assist users. Thats hard enough to manage in longer sessions.

Sure, for casuals or controller users there has got to be some kind of assistance to get them around the course, but it should be noticeably slower than breaking manually. As for the recorded trial times, times achieved without assists should have their own, seperate listing, that would be rewarding enough.

I don’t agree at all. I’ve been using no ABS since F1 2017 and evey game till F1 2021 I’ve been faster than almost every ABS user. But in this game it’s very much noticeable that slower drivers who are using ABS came closer in pace or are even faster now than me. So no your statement is wrong.

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9 hours ago, Mikulitsi said:

Welp Jarno finally made this video

Cool,good one 👌 so the toughest to learn makes you quicker when it is on the ABS...kind of an ass kick for all the ones who are learning it to drive without...but hey everyone plays as he wants it...i keep all off and try to get better even when i need 2-3 rewind functions more per race 🙃

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Guys, in this 2021 version, the time difference between those who drive without and with assistance has considerably reduced, and on some tracks, with high difficult braking like US, they manage to be even faster. I do not want to question whether or not the person has a steering wheel to compete, however, I have seen countless drivers with steering wheels, who ran WITHOUT HELP in F1 2020, turning on aids like ABS in the F1 2021, just because their times decrease. That doesn't make sense, since you "penalize" whoever tries to drive the car as IT IS, IN REAL LIFE, without help.

Please rebalance the performance of those who use aids like ABS, if the person can't, or doesn't want to take the trouble to learn to drive without aids, they can't be able to walk at the same pace as someone who trains and drive without assistance!

Edited by RafaSouza
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Guys, in this 2021 version, the time difference between those who drive without and with assistance has considerably reduced, and on some tracks, with high difficult braking like US, they manage to be even faster. I do not want to question whether or not the person has a steering wheel to compete, however, I have seen countless drivers with steering wheels, who ran WITHOUT HELP in F1 2020, turning on aids like ABS in the F1 2021, just because their times decrease. That doesn't make sense, since you "penalize" whoever tries to drive the car as IT IS, IN REAL LIFE, without help.

Please rebalance the performance of those who use aids like ABS, if the person can't, or doesn't want to take the trouble to learn to drive without aids, they can't be able to walk at the same pace as someone who trains and drive without assistance!

Time Trial are turning into a huge list of green ABS icon, soooo different from 2020.

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Im not trying to be rude but you are trying to say if someone is driving bad but without assists he should still be faster than someone who drives perfectly with assists that minimaly impact laptimes? I get that you are upset but thats the wrong way to go about it.. Its been tested and you dont gain a considerable amount of time if anything with ABS, it just makes it easier.. Is it frustrating to loose out to that when you try to drive without assists? Sure, but thats no reason to nerf it to 80 AI levels

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Well... I'm sorry but all videos on youtube // twitch i can see, or when i'm looking my friends plays, without assistance they are better !
Their are videos who speak about it (how many second you win when you off assistance)
with assistance you cannot use 100% of your F1 (break and throttle for exemple)
When i off the throttle assistance, i can do -1.5 second at every turn !
So i don't understand how you can think people with assistance are better 🤔

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15 hours ago, Meza994 said:

Im not trying to be rude but you are trying to say if someone is driving bad but without assists he should still be faster than someone who drives perfectly with assists that minimaly impact laptimes? I get that you are upset but thats the wrong way to go about it.. Its been tested and you dont gain a considerable amount of time if anything with ABS, it just makes it easier.. Is it frustrating to loose out to that when you try to drive without assists? Sure, but thats no reason to nerf it to 80 AI levels

Thanks for the answer, here we go: In general I'm talking about drivers with great performance, top 200 in time trials, for example. Myself, I'm one that usually ranks in the top 200 in the world at all tracks, and I have several trackmates who without help, didn't "keep the pace", and now mainly use ABS to make their life easier and equal, or worse, surpass times of great drivers (like top 50 now with abs, coming from drivers who never made it to this ranking). We have to remember that during a race, you without aids, you have to worry about every curve, every lap about how to manage the brake pedal, so as not to brake do hard and pass straight, or not lose the rear and spin, and if you make a mistake, wears out the tire, and it's your problem. With ABS you simply put your foot on the brake and you're done. 

Great drivers who use aids, can indeed drive faster than less qualified drivers who run without help, the problem is when the opposite happens.
Jarno Opmeer himself made a video comparing aids, in general several take 7 tenths, up to 1.5 seconds, but the ABS he was only 1 tenth slower and said that "if I train, I believe I can be 1 tenth faster than mine better time", and we're talking about a top class driver, why do all the aids penalize so much, and the ABS doesn't?

 

 

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10 hours ago, TheTrueAs said:

Well... I'm sorry but all videos on youtube // twitch i can see, or when i'm looking my friends plays, without assistance they are better !
Their are videos who speak about it (how many second you win when you off assistance)
with assistance you cannot use 100% of your F1 (break and throttle for exemple)
When i off the throttle assistance, i can do -1.5 second at every turn !
So i don't understand how you can think people with assistance are better 🤔

Watch Jarno Opmeer's latest video about assists, you'll understand. Most of the aids increased his time from 7 tenths to 1.5 seconds, but the ABS (which is the reason for the topic), he was only 1 tenth slower and said that it is because of the lack of adaptation, that adapted, he could be faster than his best time without any assistance, so... And as I said, we are talking about a world top professional driver.

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Most of the aids increased his time from 7 tenths to 1.5 seconds, but the ABS (which is the reason for the topic), he was only 1 tenth slower and said that it is because of the lack of adaptation, that adapted, he could be faster against without any assistance, so... And as I said, we are talking about a world top professional driver. I honestly don't understand why people insist that this is right, or that the ABS isn't OP. 

@BarryBL Could you consider taking this information to the development team? There are several people complaining about the same problem, all the aids add considerable extra time to the lap time, the ABS should follow the same logic. Many drivers in leagues that I follow are enabling ABS just to having less preparation/less training/and faster or minimum equal time lap, and the game currently does not offer a reward for drivers to ride without aids, in the ABS aspect. The only way to solve this is to increase the "penalty" for using abs, just like it is for ALL other assists. I would be very grateful for your help! 

jarno.jpg

Edited by RafaSouza
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14 minutes ago, RafaSouza said:

The image speaks for itself.

jarno.jpg

Yes its not slower when a top driver drives perfectly and he didnt get faster.. he just assumed he could maybe get a tenth out of it if he tried hard.. This after he did 8 additional laps in a new car (after the performance patch) so he could likely go even faster than the first time he set without assists..

To your question why this doesnt punish as much as others, well its fairly simple, its realistic that its very close to perfectly applied no assists, perfect traction control would be even faster than without.. Of course this would be a problem for the balance but you guys should decide if you want realism or not.. Besides that, you complain that drivers now have a problem at breaking perfectly compared to F1 2020? And drivers you never saw are all of a sudden up there? Maybe the first just have a problem with the changed handling model of no more 50% brake bias a.k.a. a "more" realistic way and maybe the latter just started being good at it, never did time trial in 2020, changed account name or whatever.. There are so many reasons for this and btw. In his F1 2020 assists video Jarno says that he cant get the full potential out of ABS and it would probably be equal to no ABS if he could and gives up with 0.3s slower because it was too weird for him.

Lastly your claim that you only need to stomp on the brake and thats it for the whole race is just wrong, PJTierney (from Codemasters) said himself that you get the maximum out of it by driving normally, like without assist - which Jarno also mostly did and still only improved in the last sector which is the sector he didnt improve on in his "base lap" so there was the most potential.. Sorry but you got no facts that this is actually OP

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7 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

Yes its not slower when a top driver drives perfectly and he didnt get faster.. he just assumed he could maybe get a tenth out of it if he tried hard.. This after he did 8 additional laps in a new car (after the performance patch) so he could likely go even faster than the first time he set without assists..

To your question why this doesnt punish as much as others, well its fairly simple, its realistic that its very close to perfectly applied no assists, perfect traction control would be even faster than without.. Of course this would be a problem for the balance but you guys should decide if you want realism or not.. Besides that, you complain that drivers now have a problem at breaking perfectly compared to F1 2020? And drivers you never saw are all of a sudden up there? Maybe the first just have a problem with the changed handling model of no more 50% brake bias a.k.a. a "more" realistic way and maybe the latter just started being good at it, never did time trial in 2020, changed account name or whatever.. There are so many reasons for this and btw. In his F1 2020 assists video Jarno says that he cant get the full potential out of ABS and it would probably be equal to no ABS if he could and gives up with 0.3s slower because it was too weird for him.

Lastly your claim that you only need to stomp on the brake and thats it for the whole race is just wrong, PJTierney (from Codemasters) said himself that you get the maximum out of it by driving normally, like without assist - which Jarno also mostly did and still only improved in the last sector which is the sector he didnt improve on in his "base lap" so there was the most potential.. Sorry but you got no facts that this is actually OP

I understand your points, but you, looking at this "time penalty" table, don't see any inconsistencies in the ABS, compared to all assists? Really?

I understand how the systems work in real life, this is one thing, another thing is in a game, the person turning on aids, to literally not have to worry about having to drive the car as it is in real life, whether out of laziness, lack of time, equipment, etc.

The game offers the option of the person not having to worry about it, however it applies a penalty for this fact, this is extremely simple to understand. And that the punishment applied by the person using ABS is nil or minimal, especially compared to others, this is even simpler.

If the ABS weren't OP, we wouldn't have as many people, including good drivers, using abs. If ABS were 5 tenths slower per lap, a lot of drivers would go back to driving unaided on the same day, I bet my chips on this. And whoever wanted to continue using, would have the proper punishment in the lap time, everyone would leave happy and that's it.

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Hi @RafaSouza,

I can, but I doubt there will be much movement on ABS. Like you've mentioned, some users will use ABS if they are struggling to find time to practice. I'll be honest, I'm on of them! 

I believe ABS gives enough of a trade off in time over the course of a race distance to matter. ABS vs ABS on/off would make less of a difference driving a real-life car vs Traction Control and a Automatic Gearbox for example. As someone who drives a car IRL which has a different profile when the TCS comes off, i believe the difference is enough. To add here, this is my daily drive of a Subaru BRZ, which is a rear-wheel drive, low weight car. TCS off and TCS on is very different.

In the game, TCS on and TCS off are a huge difference, and rightfully so.

I think those who use ABS on are usually running with other assists too (as they don't have the time to practice etc), so the difference adds up. 

I run TCS medium and ABS on, so lose 0.8 according to Jarno (these findings can be taken with a pinch of salt to be honest, as we're not on his level and results can vary per player - its interesting analysis though!). That's a fair trade off and I'm willing to lose that to players who have the practice, skill and talent to run without.

 

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2 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

Hi @RafaSouza,

I can, but I doubt there will be much movement on ABS. Like you've mentioned, some users will use ABS if they are struggling to find time to practice. I'll be honest, I'm on of them! 

I believe ABS gives enough of a trade off in time over the course of a race distance to matter. ABS vs ABS on/off would make less of a difference driving a real-life car vs Traction Control and a Automatic Gearbox for example. As someone who drives a car IRL which has a different profile when the TCS comes off, i believe the difference is enough. I think those who use ABS on are usually running with other assists too (as they don't have the time to practice etc), so the difference adds up. 

I run TCS medium and ABS on, so lose 0.8 according to Jarno. That's a fair trade off and I'm willing to lose that to players who have the practice, skill and talent to run without.

 

Thank you very much for the feedback Barry, I brought up the topic, as I have seen many good drivers, who didn't use abs, start using it because they are seeing advantages in it (only abs in this case, everything else turned off). In other words, we are talking about people who have the capacity and training time to walk unaided, but prefer to use it. And in online leagues, in a competitive environment, it wouldn't make sense for someone to enable something if they felt they would be slower doing it. It's okay that in some tracks the difference may be nil, but I believe that in some, it has had advantages as well.

I agree that there should be this fair exchange of time, for those who do not have the necessary time, equipment or even skill. Mainly because the level of demand at each turn for someone who drives without assistance, at each braking, is immensely higher, but if I accentuated it a little bit, the ABS penalty, I believe the whole situation would be resolved, as more casual riders they wouldn't feel that much of an impact, but in competitive leagues, any slight difference would have a big impact.

Anyway, thanks for your attention and a great day!

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1 hour ago, RafaSouza said:

I understand your points, but you, looking at this "time penalty" table, don't see any inconsistencies in the ABS, compared to all assists? Really?

I understand how the systems work in real life, this is one thing, another thing is in a game, the person turning on aids, to literally not have to worry about having to drive the car as it is in real life, whether out of laziness, lack of time, equipment, etc.

The game offers the option of the person not having to worry about it, however it applies a penalty for this fact, this is extremely simple to understand. And that the punishment applied by the person using ABS is nil or minimal, especially compared to others, this is even simpler.

If the ABS weren't OP, we wouldn't have as many people, including good drivers, using abs. If ABS were 5 tenths slower per lap, a lot of drivers would go back to driving unaided on the same day, I bet my chips on this. And whoever wanted to continue using, would have the proper punishment in the lap time, everyone would leave happy and that's it.

I already replied to this but right at the moment that Barry merged the threads and it got lost lol so ill make it short..

Sure could be more severe but the reason it seems "OP" is that braking got harder - players got worse at braking and get more advantage out of ABS therefore. ABS is probably the exact same as in 2020 but braking just got harder and on PC out of the 50 best time trials times its 13 using ABS.. thats not even close to being too many and lastly if people dont like it they can ban the use of ABS in their league.. Really not a big effort and then again you have the raw skill winning

And as Barry said and i also tried to explain to you, you gotta take Jarnos results with a pinch of salt. His base lap was "not perfect" (his own words) and he didnt improve in the last sector which is the only sector he gained time with ABS - when he was 0.25s slower after sector 2 - which is not OP to me.. I understand that its irritating to you when more people use ABS but thats just because its harder to get to the 99.9% of perfect laptime using no Assists this year which makes an assist like ABS more useful, but not overpowered to perfectly driving without it

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1 hour ago, Meza994 said:

Lastly your claim that you only need to stomp on the brake and thats it for the whole race is just wrong, PJTierney (from Codemasters) said himself that you get the maximum out of it by driving normally, like without assist - which Jarno also mostly did and still only improved in the last sector which is the sector he didnt improve on in his "base lap" so there was the most potential.. Sorry but you got no facts that this is actually OP

Yup. Turning on an assist doesn't mean you can just ignore technique and still be as quick.

 

If I turn on Traction Control and go 100% full-throttle through every corner, I'm still going to be slower than driving "properly" for example.

Same with ABS.

 

It's not a binary choice, there's still a lot of skill and nuance to being faster, whether you run assists or not 🙂 

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Sorry, velhinho, but I see no sense in comparing different players. ABS would be overpowered if a guy like you, that seems to be skillful without assists, would instantly become faster just by turning it on.

Jarno Opmeer you mention was right away 0.1s slower and thinks he could be 0.1 faster. Like you said yourself, that's a veritable World Class player and all he's getting out of it is 1 tenth slower lap times with the expectation of being 1 single tenth faster in a whole lap. If you're losing races or several leaderboard positions to a "0.1 faster ABS assisted Opmeer" you're not losing because of the assist, the gap in skill most likely lies elsewhere.

Jarno only got 0.1 slower because he applied good braking technique. A subpar driver applying subpar braking would be even slower. Depicting the assist action as something that allows careless drivers to contend with the pros is not only hyperbolic but straight out false. 

Now to what @Meza994 said:

Quote

Lastly your claim that you only need to stomp on the brake and thats it for the whole race is just wrong, PJTierney (from Codemasters) said himself that you get the maximum out of it by driving normally, like without assist - which Jarno also mostly did and still only improved in the last sector which is the sector he didnt improve on in his "base lap" so there was the most potential.. Sorry but you got no facts that this is actually OP

Quote

on PC out of the 50 best time trials times its 13 using ABS.. thats not even close to being too many and lastly if people dont like it they can ban the use of ABS in their league.. Really not a big effort and then again you have the raw skill winning

💞

There was a whole thread on Jarno's video. I'll quote what I said there as I haven't changed my mind:

Quote

Honestly, I'm ok with that. ABS and TC are real assists and the way they work are (1) sensing when the wheels are about to exceed their grip, (2) cutting or capping the respective input when they're about to do so. They're usually on tuned on the "conservative" side, so there's still a margin of grip left when they kick in. A game can balance things out to reward players that go the extra mile of driving with no assists on by making those systems kick in even earlier, so that "assisted" players are always leaving a considerable amount of performance on the table.

This is Jarno Opmeer playing on high end equipment. While the average player would struggle to get two laps on the same 0.2 ballpark consistently, he's on the opposite pole. If even he was losing time due to the nature of the assists (kicking in early, before the limit of grip), I'm not fretting about John Doe playing with assists and having a good time.

Should also be taken in consideration that the test was done on Time Trial - perfect tyres running on perfect temperature. The assists most likely would kick in even more often if it was any other mode. I'd wager ABS would set him back more were he playing online.

I was still expecting ABS to slow him down 2-3 tenths though, even with perfect tyres.

Just to clarify, I was expecting ABS to be a bit slower even for Jarno, but then again that's not a difference or the kind of assist that will turn the average player in an esports contender. Those with good results in the leaderboards while using the assist are already skillful. 

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5 hours ago, Meza994 said:

I already replied to this but right at the moment that Barry merged the threads and it got lost lol so ill make it short..

Sure could be more severe but the reason it seems "OP" is that braking got harder - players got worse at braking and get more advantage out of ABS therefore. ABS is probably the exact same as in 2020 but braking just got harder and on PC out of the 50 best time trials times its 13 using ABS.. thats not even close to being too many and lastly if people dont like it they can ban the use of ABS in their league.. Really not a big effort and then again you have the raw skill winning

And as Barry said and i also tried to explain to you, you gotta take Jarnos results with a pinch of salt. His base lap was "not perfect" (his own words) and he didnt improve in the last sector which is the only sector he gained time with ABS - when he was 0.25s slower after sector 2 - which is not OP to me.. I understand that its irritating to you when more people use ABS but thats just because its harder to get to the 99.9% of perfect laptime using no Assists this year which makes an assist like ABS more useful, but not overpowered to perfectly driving without it

Yeah, as I said, I understand your points and I appreciate the discussion. Unfortunately not all leagues have this "hardcore style", maybe it's time to look for new options. Anyway, as you yourself concluded, it seems that players who do not use assists end up being penalized more by the difficulty imposed on them, than by those who use ABS, but anyway, hope that they increase the ABS penalty a little bit, or sometimes make it easier for those who don't use any help. Cheers

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I read all the reports, opinions, and I agree with some aspects, I disagree with others, normal. One of the points I want to raise is that from the moment that skilled people turn on the ABS, because they have the feeling of being faster with it, it doesn't seem very appropriate. 25% of the top 50 managed to stay in the top 50, with abs, it doesn't seem so little to me.
And even if it turns out to be 1 tenth slower, the chance of someone using ABS to lock the wheels, for example, is absurdly smaller, so you can even debate issues such as tire wear management in braking, for example.

I'm not saying that whoever activates ABS becomes a "pro player", but I have a feeling that (in the case of abs), the game simply doesn't encourage a person to run without. Achieving, as seen, extremely similar results, with much less effort. Fair with those who drive without assistance? In my view no. I've seen track colleagues who have always been behind the times, and now simply because of the ease that the ABS brings when braking (or the difficulty of braking without abs), they manage to calmly equals the times, which I don't think is fair either.

In F1 2020 the performance difference was clear to me (abs on/off), but in 2021 it practically disappeared. Whether it's because the ABS helps more, less time penalty, or because they made the brakes without ABS more difficult, i don't know, in any case, it seems that only one side of the coin was harmed.

But I appreciate the opinions of all who collaborated in a healthy way. The only solution apparently is more training. 😅

Edited by RafaSouza
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