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ABS way too overpowered


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26 minutes ago, NxtLuff said:

So you think that an Assist that doesn't even work like that in real life shouldn't give you punishment? In this Game ABS just gives you perfect Trail Braking all the Time. If you are a good Driver the Time improvement you gain by ABS is marginal or non existent tbh. But thats the big Problem for me, it gives you no real punishment in time gained or braking power but instead you even have less tire wear on the front Tires. Last game when u used ABS you had the same Tire wear and a little less braking power (so it seemed atleast). With Traction controll on your tire wear on the rear tires was worse. On this game you have more benefits from using ABS than anything else. It also wouldnt be that bad if you hadnt problems with the rear locking up without ABS.

Made the transition from ABS to no-ABS for good in F1 2021 and your depiction does not match at all with my experience. When ABS kicks in, braking performance falls significantly and your braking distance increases. When trail braking with ABS on, if you're going too fast you understeer out of orbit.

Depending on the ABS of your car and the setting you choose, you can indeed increase the wear rate if you just mindlessly stomp on the brakes as the wheels are locking and unlocking in rapid succession. Not all ABS works this way though and very often you can even choose how aggressive is the ABS intervention. Nevertheless, you're still increasing your braking distances and receiving a performance hit, there's no free meal.

If in the game the ABS is actively stopping you from locking up your wheels by cutting on the braking force, it is just logical that you're going to have less tyre wear and I don't see why one would realistically expect otherwise.

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ABS is most certainly OP in this game, but for a filthy casual like me it's a blessing, because I find it FAR too easy to lock up this year. Last year I played with no assists and yeah, sure I locked up my front wheels, but not much, maybe in like 5 corners on the whole calendar. And locking up wasn't such a big deal pace-wise. IRL when F1 drivers lock up they just go in a straight line, unable to stop or turn in. But in the last year's game I could still turn while locked up just fine. The biggest downside was the tyre deg. At least that's my take on it.

But this year everything is totally different. I lock up all the time all over the place, on every track. And it costs so much time as well. At least on a controller, the level of precision required for it not to happen and still extract all the performance out of the brakes, seems to be impossible. So this year I'm fine with using ABS, thank you very much.

Edited by CityGhostGamer
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1 hour ago, marioho said:

Made the transition from ABS to no-ABS for good in F1 2021 and your depiction does not match at all with my experience. When ABS kicks in, braking performance falls significantly and your braking distance increases. When trail braking with ABS on, if you're going too fast you understeer out of orbit.

Depending on the ABS of your car and the setting you choose, you can indeed increase the wear rate if you just mindlessly stomp on the brakes as the wheels are locking and unlocking in rapid succession. Not all ABS works this way though and very often you can even choose how aggressive is the ABS intervention. Nevertheless, you're still increasing your braking distances and receiving a performance hit, there's no free meal.

If in the game the ABS is actively stopping you from locking up your wheels by cutting on the braking force, it is just logical that you're going to have less tyre wear and I don't see why one would realistically expect otherwise.

Not the experience I had this game so far at all. I tried driving with both on and off and as I said I had no Impact in form of braking power whatsoever. Still you could say it was maybe because Iam well used to driving with it off but that still wouldn't explain the tyre wear being significantly lower than without ABS. So it's not that it doesn't activate as you guys mentionend but rather for me it seems it just perfects your trail braking and god knows why lowers your front tyre wear rate. Only explanation I have for the lower wear rate is that running lower BB and ABS in this Game makes you understeer less, atleast that what it also feels like while driving. Atleast low speed corners make this seem to be the case.

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Lowering the brake bias will make it less likely for your front wheels to lock up as it will diverge the power to the rear. Lower wear rate at the front is expected.

ABS in this game seems to positively keep your wheels from locking by capping your brake power. Lower wear rate is expected.

I don't know, mate. In all these scenarios there's this underlying constant: you're not able to overdrive the front. By requiring less work of the front tyres they will wear less. I still don't see where your report deviates from what we were discussing here.

And if there was indeed a free boon of perfect trail braking, it would be hard to explain the deluge of "why I'm understeering so much?" posts F1 2021 got in this forum and on social media. Driving inputs are still king for determining car behavior, as it should.

A good player with ABS on will very likely get the exact same scenario you're describing. They (1) will rarely exceed their grip budget, (2) exceed it by a small margin and (3) have the ABS kick in briefly when it happens, having (4) lower wear rate than if they didn't have ABS but (5) a worse lap time than they would if they hadn't exceeded their grip.

Driving to the limit is golden. Locking up your wheels is bad for performance. Relying on ABS to cap your heavy foot is bad for performance. That's a fine triad.

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This isn't even remotely how it is in the game. You can just slam 100% brake pressure in every corner without even having to worry about understeer or other negative effects. You can just completely overdrive the car with abs, the game will just do the required braking for you. You can just drive fast without being good at handling the car. If even a nearly perfect driver like Opmeer can get faster when having this assist then an assist is just too strong. 

The only downside I notice seems to be when driving in the wet. There ABS users have less braking power. And this is what it should be like in dry conditions. It should prevent you from locking up, but it should force you to brake earlier since the assist prevents you from always being able to have maximum brake performance while still keeping your car rotation at max. ABS atm just doesn't have a single downside as long as you are in the dry.

Edited by Monstahonk
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2 hours ago, marioho said:

Driving to the limit is golden. Locking up your wheels is bad for performance. Relying on ABS to cap your heavy foot is bad for performance. That's a fine triad.

Perfect 👌

I’m all ABSed out.  But I only ever see the odd driver on the odd lap lock up whilst trail braking in an actual F1 race. Not many actual drivers here I think. Even less that have driven a car without abs. and rear wheel drive come to think off it. 

watching Rush tonight..... mediocre to driven😂 I know but just love the lung vacuum scene 🤢 Which is just about to be shown 

Edited by ScaredDuck
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8 hours ago, NxtLuff said:

Not the experience I had this game so far at all. I tried driving with both on and off and as I said I had no Impact in form of braking power whatsoever. Still you could say it was maybe because Iam well used to driving with it off but that still wouldn't explain the tyre wear being significantly lower than without ABS. So it's not that it doesn't activate as you guys mentionend but rather for me it seems it just perfects your trail braking and god knows why lowers your front tyre wear rate. Only explanation I have for the lower wear rate is that running lower BB and ABS in this Game makes you understeer less, atleast that what it also feels like while driving. Atleast low speed corners make this seem to be the case.

Possibly with ABS off you are locking up slightly without realising, and this is removed by having ABS on? I've generally found I'm less prone to locking up in F1 2021 than F1 2020 but I wonder if it's just less obvious when this happens?

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Out of curiousity, is anyone aware of any good real-world comparison data of ABS being on/off on a car raced round a track and its impact on optimal lap time? 

The only comparisons I ever remember seeing are of cars braking to a complete stop in a straight line, proving that using ABS is safer since it dramatically decreases stopping distances. 

My non-expert expectation would be that the only downside to having ABS in use would be any extra weight from the system simply being present. 

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4 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

The only comparisons I ever remember seeing are of cars braking to a complete stop in a straight line, proving that using ABS is safer since it dramatically decreases stopping distances. 

Those are comparisons for the bad scenarios only: what is better, excessive braking with or without ABS? Keeping your wheels at the limit of grip will still give you better braking performance.

Perhaps looking for GT3 cars and ABS testing you could find those comparisons as they have anti-locking even when racing.

In those cars there's usually two sets of data for the ABS to be tuned over. One determining when the ABS kicks in, according to wheel velocity - the loss of grip isn't instantaneous, you can choose to have the system engaged anytime in the process depending on the slip ratio. A second one for how much of a relief in brake pressure it will exert, which is extra useful for managing temps too.

 

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ABS is OP because you dont have to deal with the rears locking up and throwing the car in crazy directions in this handling model. This is the reason they are introducing a new handling model for the game, which is already being used by the esports drivers. ABS with the current handling model is as close to a cheat as you can get in the game. The skill gap between someone who is quick with ABS on and ABS off is huge, even if they're setting the exact same times. 

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On 9/23/2021 at 10:06 AM, PJTierney said:

Yup. Turning on an assist doesn't mean you can just ignore technique and still be as quick.

 

If I turn on Traction Control and go 100% full-throttle through every corner, I'm still going to be slower than driving "properly" for example.

Same with ABS.

 

It's not a binary choice, there's still a lot of skill and nuance to being faster, whether you run assists or not 🙂 

This is also true, as I use medium TCS simply to eliminate random snap oversteer (snap over steering makes me rage lol) but still drive as if I don't have TCS most of the time, and as a result I don't really lose any time on most tracks, if anything I'm actually faster, purely because I can focus on driving rather than worrying about the car randomly spinning because I went 1% too far on the throttle. 

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On 9/25/2021 at 9:30 AM, Ultra3142 said:

Out of curiousity, is anyone aware of any good real-world comparison data of ABS being on/off on a car raced round a track and its impact on optimal lap time? 

The only comparisons I ever remember seeing are of cars braking to a complete stop in a straight line, proving that using ABS is safer since it dramatically decreases stopping distances. 

My non-expert expectation would be that the only downside to having ABS in use would be any extra weight from the system simply being present. 

In a real car, i think ABS would most likely improve lap times. But we are not talking about a system built in a car. We are talking about a game assist which should make cars easier to handle, not to replace certain skills. An assist should give you the ability to get to a certain limit in speeds. Turning them off should give you the opportunity to get faster than these limits the game sets with the assists. ABS just doesnt do this, as having it turned on only gives advantages.
The same goes for traction control. TC in F1 cars was banned as the performance was too good and replaced driver skills. In the game it makes you multiple tenths slower, because you can get closer to the car limit than the assist allows. Turning off a driver aid should always give you the opportunity to get faster. With ABS this simply isnt the case.

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4 hours ago, Monstahonk said:

In a real car, i think ABS would most likely improve lap times. But we are not talking about a system built in a car. We are talking about a game assist which should make cars easier to handle, not to replace certain skills. An assist should give you the ability to get to a certain limit in speeds. Turning them off should give you the opportunity to get faster than these limits the game sets with the assists. ABS just doesnt do this, as having it turned on only gives advantages.
The same goes for traction control. TC in F1 cars was banned as the performance was too good and replaced driver skills. In the game it makes you multiple tenths slower, because you can get closer to the car limit than the assist allows. Turning off a driver aid should always give you the opportunity to get faster. With ABS this simply isnt the case.

In a real car you wouldn’t activate abs on a track unless you made a mistake.  Thereby a slower time....  I’ve driven cars with and without abs on track. 

ALL ABS DOES ID STOP YOUR WHEELS LOCKING UP AT THE POINT OFF WHEN THEY ARE ABOUT TO LOCK UP.   Look up peoples experience off abs in icy road conditions. (I havnt but I know what they will say and it’s because they don’t understand how abs works) It’s probably the easiest way to understand abs and make many on here realise abs isn’t activated when you step on brake pedal.

abs is an aid to prevent accidents as without it your car skids when wheels lock up.... with it your wheels don’t lock up thereby stop you from skidding.   That’s it.  

I get lots off you are not even old enough to drive... but I’m sure most have ridden a bicycle.  And think how sometimes you press the brakes on it you skid and other times you don’t.   You have no way off really knowing when you will or won’t skid.... Same thing in a car.  So ABS aids you by stop you from skidding so you still have some control

And someone’s opinion doesn’t outweigh facts.  Despite what social media idiots would try and have you believe 

Edited by ScaredDuck
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36 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

In a real car you wouldn’t activate abs on a track unless you made a mistake.  Thereby a slower time....  I’ve driven cars with and without abs on track. 

ALL ABS DOES ID STOP YOUR WHEELS LOCKING UP AT THE POINT OFF WHEN THEY ARE ABOUT TO LOCK UP.   Look up peoples experience off abs in icy road conditions.  It’s probably the easiest way to understand abs and make many on here realise abs isn’t activated when you step on brake pedal.

abs is an aid to prevent accidents as without it your car skids when wheels lock up.... with it your wheels don’t lock up thereby stop you from skidding.   That’s it.  

I get lots off you are not even old enough to drive... but I’m sure most have ridden a bicycle.  And think how sometimes you press the brakes on it you skid and other times you don’t.   You have no way off really knowing when you will or won’t skid.... Same thing in a car.  So ABS aids you by stop you from skidding so you still have some control 

And what is your point now? I dont even know what you want to say with this.

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3 minutes ago, Monstahonk said:

And what is your point now? I dont even know what you want to say with this.

I think what @ScaredDuck is saying is that the people on top of the leaderboards might have ABS activated as an assist. That doesnt mean they locked up and activated the assist during their fastest lap.

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5 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

NO IT DON’T 

Ok then it doesnt. Perfect. So you are basically saying in this game, the assist works unrealisticly because you can easily achieve better laptimes, when in reality it shoudn't be the case.

Is this correct or is that wrong aswell? Is ABS in this game too strong for you or not? After all you wrote, I still can't really tell your stance at that.

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15 minutes ago, Monstahonk said:

Ok then it doesnt. Perfect. So you are basically saying in this game, the assist works unrealisticly because you can easily achieve better laptimes, when in reality it shoudn't be the case.

Is this correct or is that wrong aswell? Is ABS in this game too strong for you or not? After all you wrote, I still can't really tell your stance at that.

You can have abs activated as I do but I rarely brake to the point I need abs to save me...   if I do activate abs my lap times will be slower... I may not skid but I will go wide because I’ve broke to late.

I will say abs most probably helps reduce tyre wear.   But one a one lap time trial tyre wear isn’t a issue

Edited by ScaredDuck
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5 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

You can have abs activated as I do but I rarely brake to the point I need abs to save me...   if I do activate abs my lap times will be slower... I may not skid but I will go wide because I’ve broke to late.

Bro its not ABS. In the Game it is an driving Asisst not an Drivers Aid System. It doesnt work like your saying it does, its not like its activates or deactivates. Its active all the time especially because you wouldnt notice it. When you break its active all the time and as @RLLLsaid it always acts especially on the rear. Also because @Ultra3142said it when you are a good driver TC slows you down especially because it reduces the power you have even when there would be no noticable traction loss without it active. I dont get whats so hard to understand that in the Game ABS is a driving assist the same as TC and so on it should funtion like one and slow you down, not make you the same pace or even faster than you are without.

There is an insane difference in the Line and driving style you can take on with ABS on and ABS off. You simply can be a worse driver with the worse line and still be faster because ABS is broken.

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1 minute ago, NxtLuff said:

Bro its not ABS. In the Game it is an driving Asisst not an Drivers Aid System. It doesnt work like your saying it does, its not like its activates or deactivates. Its active all the time especially because you wouldnt notice it. When you break its active all the time and as @RLLLsaid it always acts especially on the rear. Also because @Ultra3142said it when you are a good driver TC slows you down especially because it reduces the power you have even when there would be no noticable traction loss without it active. I dont get whats so hard to understand that in the Game ABS is a driving assist the same as TC and so on it should funtion like one and slow you down, not make you the same pace or even faster than you are without.

There is an insane difference in the Line and driving style you can take on with ABS on and ABS off. You simply can be a worse driver with the worse line and still be faster because ABS is broken.

Your describing what braking assist.

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1 minute ago, ScaredDuck said:

Your describing what braking assist does in the game... the other braking aid 

No im not. Braking assist does the breaking for you when it thinks you should slow down? Idk where I said that ABS does that?

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