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1 minute ago, Meza994 said:

Actually thats Wolff propaganda lol and has nothing to do with more wheel to wheel, even if one team was 1s faster than the rest it would be a boring championship but the rest could be wheel to wheel all race..

And to tell you some reg changes that were not 1 team like 1 sec in front: 2005, 2006, 2009, 2017 those are 4 out of 5 major changes to engine and aerodynamics of the past decade and all of them had at least 2 teams battling it out, yes some had an advantage (Merc 2017) but it was still a battle and could be close depending on the track

How is it Wolff propaganda when I havnt heard or read anything he has said on the subject?

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1 minute ago, ScaredDuck said:

How is it Wolff propaganda when I havnt heard or read anything he has said on the subject?

All good buddy, its just that he argued towards FIA that reg changes wont lead to closer racing/closer competition and that in 2020 when Merc were the most dominant car ever😂

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13 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

All good buddy, its just that he argued towards FIA that reg changes wont lead to closer racing/closer competition and that in 2020 when Merc were the most dominant car ever😂

Of course he will argue for what’s best for his team..

But let’s put it another way... Football.  Man Utd dominated for years.. and it was up to the rest off the teams to catch up which they did and surpassed them.  Liberty aim is to reduce the gap from the slowest car to the fastest car... by changing regulations.. but all it does is give one team a advantage over the rest with each change.  keeping regulations the same year on year is he best way for teams to catch and pass their competition.

Personall F1 should be just that... cars have a min and max weight and come to fit within specific dimensions... and the car teams should be left to design as they please... Abs, traction control, fans the works

dude we are debating not arguing.. don’t feel as though you need to worry about offending me

i still like you

you like @mariohoboth know the sport inside out. My opinions just come from what I’ve experienced over the years

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2 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

Of course he will argue for what’s best for his team..

But let’s put it another way... Football.  Man Utd dominated for years.. and it was up to the rest off the teams to catch up which they did and surpassed them.  Liberty aim is to reduce the gap from the slowest car to the fastest car... by changing regulations.. but all it does is give one team a advantage over the rest with each change.  keeping regulations the same year on year is he best way for teams to catch and pass their competition.

Personall F1 should be just that... cars have a min and max weight and come to fit within specific dimensions... and the car teams should be left to design as they please... Abs, traction control, fans the works

I dont think Football can be compared in any way to engineering a car haha and besides 4 out of the last 5 big reg changes didnt have one big winner initially! They always came after. 2019 they slightly changed aero regs and 2019 was closer gaps than 2020 so that logic you apply just doesnt work. Its more a lottery when you change regs, it can be 1 team being above all and can be all very close the same probability.

I like the idea of teams just doing what they want, problem is it would probably be the team with the most money and best engineers being in their own league like Merc compared to Haas this year but Haas would be the 2nd best team lol, it would be a sport of engineers and definitely great to see what they can do but i think not that this is what F1 should become

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11 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

I dont think Football can be compared in any way to engineering a car haha and besides 4 out of the last 5 big reg changes didnt have one big winner initially! They always came after. 2019 they slightly changed aero regs and 2019 was closer gaps than 2020 so that logic you apply just doesnt work. Its more a lottery when you change regs, it can be 1 team being above all and can be all very close the same probability.

I like the idea of teams just doing what they want, problem is it would probably be the team with the most money and best engineers being in their own league like Merc compared to Haas this year but Haas would be the 2nd best team lol, it would be a sport of engineers and definitely great to see what they can do but i think not that this is what F1 should become

What I was referring to in football is the regs didn’t need to change for other teams to catch Man Utd.  

Ofcourse changing the regs is a lottery.. But with a field off only ten teams it makes it more likely that one team will be far in front off the others.  Didn’t say what team.. but it makes it more likely almost certain one team will

Could Argue engineering a successful football team is miles harder than engineering a car... car components don’t have difficult human personalities

be Warned I’ve a poxy toothache and can’t get to see a dentist for a week... so I am alittle testy

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40 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

What I was referring to in football is the regs didn’t need to change for other teams to catch Man Utd.  

Ofcourse changing the regs is a lottery.. But with a field off only ten teams it makes it more likely that one team will be far in front off the others.  Didn’t say what team.. but it makes it more likely almost certain one team will

Could Argue engineering a successful football team is miles harder than engineering a car... car components don’t have difficult human personalities

be Warned I’ve a poxy toothache and can’t get to see a dentist for a week... so I am alittle testy

Haha i feel ya lol but i still dont see youre argumentation. I mean i know what you mean but the past 20 years have literally proved that its not gonna be 1 team thats far in front in the year of reg change. Merc 2014 was the only time and that was arguably because of their unfair development time advantage.. Its just the same chance a team will be far in front with a reg change as with regs staying the same. 2004 no big reg changes yet Ferrari absolutely dominant, 2020 Merc absolutely dominant, 2013 Red Bull absolutely dominant, 1992 Williams absolutely dominant. Its really a higher chance of a car getting dominant when its stable regulations because they have more time to find loopholes

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3 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

Haha i feel ya lol but i still dont see youre argumentation. I mean i know what you mean but the past 20 years have literally proved that its not gonna be 1 team thats far in front in the year of reg change. Merc 2014 was the only time and that was arguably because of their unfair development time advantage.. Its just the same chance a team will be far in front with a reg change as with regs staying the same. 2004 no big reg changes yet Ferrari absolutely dominant, 2020 Merc absolutely dominant, 2013 Red Bull absolutely dominant, 1992 Williams absolutely dominant. Its really a higher chance of a car getting dominant when its stable regulations because they have more time to find loopholes

Like I said you know f1 inside out.  I just say what I personally see.  Your maybe right. 

 

How can you not get where I’m coming from but feel me at the same time...  dude you disagree with me it’s fine.  Not going to spit my dummy out

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I think there are two concurrent measures for the betterment of the sport in place:

  • 2022 and 2025 (engine) regs
  • Budget cap

They kind of aim at different things though. The regs are coming to keep the sport relevant technology wise and give us better racing, but it's the budget cap that will try to truly reign in the competition problem.

@ScaredDuck bringing football into the scene is actually relevant. The competition issue will be addresses or at least ameliorated by tackling what is arguably the greatest un-equalizer in football today: pouring money when others can only sprinkle some, relatively speaking.

3 hours ago, Meza994 said:

 Its more a lottery when you change regs, it can be 1 team being above all and can be all very close the same probability.

Precisely for that. There are always odds up in the air, and good money helps bringing them in your favor.

That's oversimplifying things a bit, though. Take Mercedes and their current dynasty. This is from an old post of mine:

Mercedes is no recipient of divine favors. The team has a track record of stellar management – both in human and financial resources – and long term planning in the modern era. The Schumacher stint from 2010-2012 had the German legend fronting the team’s backstage venture both for (1) his prowess in aiding the development of a winning car with his renowned feedback ability and (2) his acumen in team building in the garage and up high in the ladder, not for any serious championship contention. From the outset he was there to lay the foundations for the team. Rosberg himself attributes to “warrior” Schumi much of his improvement on the psychological aspect of the sport – go give his Beyond The Grid podcast appearance a listen, it’s great!

That’s just an example, though. I’m not here to overblow Michael’s role on Mercedes. Actually my point strength relies precisely on his role not being the most important one: if Schumacher was that important to building the Silver Arrows dynasty and the board already had that commitment to the long game, just imagine what the likes of Ross Brawn and Paddy Lowe did.

Ever since the 2014 reg changes sniff was up in the air Mercedes had their sights locked on R&D for the new era. The chassis and engine development went as back as 2011-2012 with the bringing of Geoff Willis just to overseer the project in 2011. Aldo Costa’s episode on Beyond The Grid is another great listen! They basically had two projects concurrently running at the time – and, naturally, the funds to do so. 

Just to print the LinkedIn and CV of the names associated with those foundational years would require a ream of paper. Ross Brawn, Paddy Lowe, Lauda, Aldo Costa…

Regulation changes will always shake things up, but money irons them out with time. Hopefully though, we'll be able to replace "money" for "good management" from now on. My expectation is that the budget cap will help curb big spending out of the game and teams like McLaren and Racing Point/Aston Martin can step up to the big leagues, while Sauber/Alpha Romeo and Williams can draw in more of the spotlight.

I make a point of singling out Racing Point because they're known for punching above their weight class for a while now and Mr. Stroll has put the team under his velvety wing. And Sauber both for the rumors of Alpha Romeo dropping the sponsorship and for they having a reputation in aerodynamics – if I'm not mistaken, former Benetton and Ferrari aerodynamicist Willem Toet is still in the group?

Alpha Tauri is kind of an oddball by being little sis to big bro Red Bull, and Haas sincerely didn't manage to make any splash to warrant me getting in high hopes for them. I mean, the best thing I can remember right now is the rumor of Indy's Andretti buying their spot. 

Too long, didn't bother to read: regulation changes alone won't do much. This time though we have a budget cap in place, and that's what will hopefully keep the pack from splitting into F1 and F1.5

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8 minutes ago, marioho said:

I think there are two concurrent measures for the betterment of the sport in place:

  • 2022 and 2025 (engine) regs
  • Budget cap

They kind of aim at different things though. The regs are coming to keep the sport relevant technology wise and give us better racing, but it's the budget cap that will try to truly reign in the competition problem.

@ScaredDuck bringing football into the scene is actually relevant. The competition issue will be addresses or at least ameliorated by tackling what is arguably the greatest un-equalizer in football today: pouring money when others can only sprinkle some, relatively speaking.

Precisely for that. There are always odds up in the air, and good money helps bringing them in your favor.

That's oversimplifying things a bit, though. Take Mercedes and their current dynasty. This is from an old post of mine:

Mercedes is no recipient of divine favors. The team has a track record of stellar management – both in human and financial resources – and long term planning in the modern era. The Schumacher stint from 2010-2012 had the German legend fronting the team’s backstage venture both for (1) his prowess in aiding the development of a winning car with his renowned feedback ability and (2) his acumen in team building in the garage and up high in the ladder, not for any serious championship contention. From the outset he was there to lay the foundations for the team. Rosberg himself attributes to “warrior” Schumi much of his improvement on the psychological aspect of the sport – go give his Beyond The Grid podcast appearance a listen, it’s great!

That’s just an example, though. I’m not here to overblow Michael’s role on Mercedes. Actually my point strength relies precisely on his role not being the most important one: if Schumacher was that important to building the Silver Arrows dynasty and the board already had that commitment to the long game, just imagine what the likes of Ross Brawn and Paddy Lowe did.

Ever since the 2014 reg changes sniff was up in the air Mercedes had their sights locked on R&D for the new era. The chassis and engine development went as back as 2011-2012 with the bringing of Geoff Willis just to overseer the project in 2011. Aldo Costa’s episode on Beyond The Grid is another great listen! They basically had two projects concurrently running at the time – and, naturally, the funds to do so. 

Just to print the LinkedIn and CV of the names associated with those foundational years would require a ream of paper. Ross Brawn, Paddy Lowe, Lauda, Aldo Costa…

Regulation changes will always shake things up, but money irons them out with time. Hopefully though, we'll be able to replace "money" for "good management" from now on. My expectation is that the budget cap will help curb big spending out of the game and teams like McLaren and Racing Point/Aston Martin can step up to the big leagues, while Sauber/Alpha Romeo and Williams can draw in more of the spotlight.

I make a point of singling out Racing Point because they're known for punching above their weight class for a while now and Mr. Stroll has put the team under his velvety wing. And Sauber both for the rumors of Alpha Romeo dropping the sponsorship and for they having a reputation in aerodynamics – if I'm not mistaken, former Benetton and Ferrari aerodynamicist Willem Toet is still in the group?

Alpha Tauri is kind of an oddball by being little sis to big bro Red Bull, and Haas sincerely didn't manage to make any splash to warrant me getting in high hopes for them. I mean, the best thing I can remember right now is the rumor of Indy's Andretti buying their spot. 

Too long, didn't bother to read: regulation changes alone won't do much. This time though we have a budget cap in place, and that's what will hopefully keep the pack from splitting into F1 and F1.5

Your posts are never to long for me... as I’ve said before I can read you all day.... 

Which does keep me asking myself... are you really Brazilian because your English is silky smooth

also like to point out in the years Man Utd.  Dominated they underspent their rivals year on year

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7 minutes ago, marioho said:

I think there are two concurrent measures for the betterment of the sport in place:

  • 2022 and 2025 (engine) regs
  • Budget cap

They kind of aim at different things though. The regs are coming to keep the sport relevant technology wise and give us better racing, but it's the budget cap that will try to truly reign in the competition problem.

@ScaredDuck bringing football into the scene is actually relevant. The competition issue will be addresses or at least ameliorated by tackling what is arguably the greatest un-equalizer in football today: pouring money when others can only sprinkle some, relatively speaking.

Precisely for that. There are always odds up in the air, and good money helps bringing them in your favor.

That's oversimplifying things a bit, though. Take Mercedes and their current dynasty. This is from an old post of mine:

Mercedes is no recipient of divine favors. The team has a track record of stellar management – both in human and financial resources – and long term planning in the modern era. The Schumacher stint from 2010-2012 had the German legend fronting the team’s backstage venture both for (1) his prowess in aiding the development of a winning car with his renowned feedback ability and (2) his acumen in team building in the garage and up high in the ladder, not for any serious championship contention. From the outset he was there to lay the foundations for the team. Rosberg himself attributes to “warrior” Schumi much of his improvement on the psychological aspect of the sport – go give his Beyond The Grid podcast appearance a listen, it’s great!

That’s just an example, though. I’m not here to overblow Michael’s role on Mercedes. Actually my point strength relies precisely on his role not being the most important one: if Schumacher was that important to building the Silver Arrows dynasty and the board already had that commitment to the long game, just imagine what the likes of Ross Brawn and Paddy Lowe did.

Ever since the 2014 reg changes sniff was up in the air Mercedes had their sights locked on R&D for the new era. The chassis and engine development went as back as 2011-2012 with the bringing of Geoff Willis just to overseer the project in 2011. Aldo Costa’s episode on Beyond The Grid is another great listen! They basically had two projects concurrently running at the time – and, naturally, the funds to do so. 

Just to print the LinkedIn and CV of the names associated with those foundational years would require a ream of paper. Ross Brawn, Paddy Lowe, Lauda, Aldo Costa…

Regulation changes will always shake things up, but money irons them out with time. Hopefully though, we'll be able to replace "money" for "good management" from now on. My expectation is that the budget cap will help curb big spending out of the game and teams like McLaren and Racing Point/Aston Martin can step up to the big leagues, while Sauber/Alpha Romeo and Williams can draw in more of the spotlight.

I make a point of singling out Racing Point because they're known for punching above their weight class for a while now and Mr. Stroll has put the team under his velvety wing. And Sauber both for the rumors of Alpha Romeo dropping the sponsorship and for they having a reputation in aerodynamics – if I'm not mistaken, former Benetton and Ferrari aerodynamicist Willem Toet is still in the group?

Alpha Tauri is kind of an oddball by being little sis to big bro Red Bull, and Haas sincerely didn't manage to make any splash to warrant me getting in high hopes for them. I mean, the best thing I can remember right now is the rumor of Indy's Andretti buying their spot. 

Too long, didn't bother to read: regulation changes alone won't do much. This time though we have a budget cap in place, and that's what will hopefully keep the pack from splitting into F1 and F1.5

That i can fully agree on, the budget cap is the best way and longterm quite likely to minimize the gap between teams

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On 10/23/2021 at 9:54 PM, Meza994 said:

That i can fully agree on, the budget cap is the best way and longterm quite likely to minimize the gap between teams

It's definitely a first step but these people are some of the best and brightest and it won't be too long and they'll find loopholes and the gaps will increase. 

To revert back to the football analogies that have been bandied around. Bayern Munchen/Munich (whatever name you prefer).   The rules of the Bundesliga mean they can't massively overspend like the Oil countries but they don't need to. The allure of their name means they get players/staff for less money, if any.   Players seem to run down their contracts and then they sign for Bayern for peanuts.  This doesn't happen every time, obviously, but is a recurring theme that the better people go where there is a higher chance of success. 

The budget cap will bring things back in line for a while but eventually that too will be circumvented because that's just how the world works.

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3 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

It's definitely a first step but these people are some of the best and brightest and it won't be too long and they'll find loopholes and the gaps will increase. 

To revert back to the football analogies that have been bandied around. Bayern Munchen/Munich (whatever name you prefer).   The rules of the Bundesliga mean they can't massively overspend like the Oil countries but they don't need to. The allure of their name means they get players/staff for less money, if any.   Players seem to run down their contracts and then they sign for Bayern for peanuts.  This doesn't happen every time, obviously, but is a recurring theme that the better people go where there is a higher chance of success. 

The budget cap will bring things back in line for a while but eventually that too will be circumvented because that's just how the world works.

I think you overplay this lol and biggest costs are not the staff in F1 but the development and as they also limit wind tunnel testing its quite likely to work a lot better than anything in Football.. Of course there will always be gaps because different minds have different ideas but its not gonna be as bad as the past 10 years in the long run

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6 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

I think you overplay this lol and biggest costs are not the staff in F1 but the development and as they also limit wind tunnel testing its quite likely to work a lot better than anything in Football.. Of course there will always be gaps because different minds have different ideas but its not gonna be as bad as the past 10 years in the long run

I'm not really concerning the costs of the staff (such as their wages) but the knowledge they have. The 'better' ones will end up migrating to the bigger teams (as expected) and they'll find ways to discover loopholes faster than the other teams and thats when the gaps will form again. 

The wind tunnel testing thing is an excellent idea as it balances risk and reward but may result in yo-yo teams. Like Haas have a sensational 2022 and finish, say, 4th. Less development time means they'll struggle in 2023 and finish 8th. Then they'll have more development time and finish 4th or 5th again in 2024. Less development time the following season and return to the back.   The bigger teams will be able to do more with the limited time so won't be as affected. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, nor what they're doing, as I think it's a step in the right direction. I just don't think it's all going to be sunshine and rainbows forever more before it falls apart because the bigger teams have found exploits. 

I wouldn't be overly disappointed if a team was dominant for just one season as long as it was someone new.  If, say, McLaren were dominant and it was Norris and Ricciardo then it'd still be fresh to see someone but Merc/Red Bull up there. Like 2009 with Brawn is remembered okayish as it was a one-off (and barely lasted half a season) whereas Merc aren't as popular as they've been consistently good for 8 seasons that it's strangled the sport. 

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16 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

I'm not really concerning the costs of the staff (such as their wages) but the knowledge they have. The 'better' ones will end up migrating to the bigger teams (as expected) and they'll find ways to discover loopholes faster than the other teams and thats when the gaps will form again. 

The wind tunnel testing thing is an excellent idea as it balances risk and reward but may result in yo-yo teams. Like Haas have a sensational 2022 and finish, say, 4th. Less development time means they'll struggle in 2023 and finish 8th. Then they'll have more development time and finish 4th or 5th again in 2024. Less development time the following season and return to the back.   The bigger teams will be able to do more with the limited time so won't be as affected. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, nor what they're doing, as I think it's a step in the right direction. I just don't think it's all going to be sunshine and rainbows forever more before it falls apart because the bigger teams have found exploits. 

I wouldn't be overly disappointed if a team was dominant for just one season as long as it was someone new.  If, say, McLaren were dominant and it was Norris and Ricciardo then it'd still be fresh to see someone but Merc/Red Bull up there. Like 2009 with Brawn is remembered okayish as it was a one-off (and barely lasted half a season) whereas Merc aren't as popular as they've been consistently good for 8 seasons that it's strangled the sport. 

I agree with the last part for sure but i dont think that in the long run the engineers will be that different in skill, not taking Adrian Newey into account that guy is insane lol, but lets take 2009 as an example, you would agree that Ferrari and McLaren and maybe Renault would have the best engineers as they had the best reputation and yet the teams that got the ground breaking idea of double diffuser were Toyota and Brawn. Again im sure it will have an impact (reputation) but its not gonna be as bad as the past, engineers usually stay pretty loyal to their teams but we will see how good it will workout😄

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27 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

I agree with the last part for sure but i dont think that in the long run the engineers will be that different in skill, not taking Adrian Newey into account that guy is insane lol, but lets take 2009 as an example, you would agree that Ferrari and McLaren and maybe Renault would have the best engineers as they had the best reputation and yet the teams that got the ground breaking idea of double diffuser were Toyota and Brawn. Again im sure it will have an impact (reputation) but its not gonna be as bad as the past, engineers usually stay pretty loyal to their teams but we will see how good it will workout😄

Can't argue with the Newey praise.  These days you usually get people who are specialists in their field and competent at the other aspects of engineering.  It's rare to find someone with such understanding of so many aspects of a cars development. 

It's possible you're right.  I'm not saying that the best will all go there and the rest of the teams will have people who suck as all of the people involved are all exceptionally bright, plus you can only have one 'Lead' and you'll probably have a few highly competent people that will end up being exceptional leads for various teams, just that the cream rises to the top usually.    

With so little information on how well the teams are getting on with development, it's all guesswork as to how close it'll be but i'm, at least, glad it was delayed a year as this has been my favourite season since 2012. 

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5 hours ago, Meza994 said:

I agree with the last part for sure but i dont think that in the long run the engineers will be that different in skill, not taking Adrian Newey into account that guy is insane lol, but lets take 2009 as an example, you would agree that Ferrari and McLaren and maybe Renault would have the best engineers as they had the best reputation and yet the teams that got the ground breaking idea of double diffuser were Toyota and Brawn. Again im sure it will have an impact (reputation) but its not gonna be as bad as the past, engineers usually stay pretty loyal to their teams but we will see how good it will workout😄

To dig on this and what @SmokyAtom07 is discussing, that's one aspect that makes me feel quite at ease with Mercedes being almost a juggernaut these past seasons. If you listen to the stories of the... "older" days, like Aldo Costa and if I'm not mistaken Berger's interviews with Tom Clarkson you get a glimpse at the "survival of the fittest" environment that Ferrari instilled. They were losing skillful engineers like crazy with the constant rug pulling and politics they had. 

Not that I am a fan of bland brands without character. Hopefully Mercedes is far from that. But I do like an underdog story like Racing Point or a back with the laurels narrative like that of McLaren's. Teams with good management and sort of a porous hierarchy where even the rank and file employees can freely get their innovative ideas up to the white heads without fear of someone stealing the spotlight or of being shunned away.

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