Jump to content Jump to content

Driver ratings update - October edition


Recommended Posts

Soo we got another driver ratings update.. No major changes (mostly only going by pace):

 

Mazepin -1 pace (65) - wont make any big difference and was ok before

Latifi -2 pace (71) - Actually improving his pace compared to Russel

Russel +1 pace (85) - still far too low, dont balance it team intern but overall, the Williams car performance is ok just Russels pace needs a buff!

Tsunoa +1 pace (77) - its ok considering his recent form

Giovinazzi +1 pace (83) - considering no quali pace its ok to have him still lover than Räikkönen but getting closer is good

Ocon -2 pace (79) - same as with Latifi...

Gasly -12 awareness (87) - a bit much no?

Leclerc -1 pace (90)..... ***?

Alonso +1 pace (89)... Alpine 3rd best car on the grid or what? should rather be like 92 pace seriously

Norris +1 pace (92) - thats fair IMO

Ricciardo -1 pace (86) - also fair

Perez -1 pace (87) - Turkey was good but overall its okay

Verstappen -1 pace (97) - fixing the car peformance with the driver pace again?

 

There were a few more changes but most pace is the most recognizable ingame and i seriously question Codemasters decision making on this now.. to balance out car performance for Williams and Red Bull the drivers get nerfed.. Which will not affect the player so altho Merc has the clear advantage pace wise (clearly car as Bottas is also up front) Red Bull cars are still the fastest when the player is good (for his AI level) seems the wrong approach to me and that Leclerc got nerfed is just complete nonsense, who are you trying to fool that Bottas is a faster driver than Leclerc?!? This would go for a lot of other drivers too but at least most of the other drivers (Alonso, Norris, Russel) got a buff, even if it was too little, so please Codemasters either explain why you do these changes in a much more transparent way or stop balancing the cars performance with driver stats

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember the last one of these that I thought "hey, that's not a bad change, actually!". I always notice things I disagree with... mainly, everything they change. Or don't change.   

Your noting of the changes is helpful though! 

I can agree that the only reason why Max is dropping is to fix the car balancing issue. I get the whole Monza incident but Lewis has been involved in alot more incidents this year. I know it looks like i'm doing the usual internet thing where you try to pull down one to make the other look better, but it's not intended that way.   Those two are in a league of their own so can only be compared against each other. I think the Merc has finally understood their car post-Silverstone so they've improved, particularly in the last few races. It's not like Hamilton has got better, or Max has got worse. Just that the Merc has and it needs to be balanced without improving Merc too much and another Bottas wins every race scenario. 

Mazepin -1 pace (65) - wont make any big difference and was ok before   - I really don't think anyone will complain about Maz demotions. 😂   Mick has once again surged way ahead in the last few races in terms of performance. Completely justified. 

Latifi -2 pace (71) - Actually improving his pace compared to Russel.  - Completely agree. Russell is in the form of his F1 career (in particular, qualifying) and Latifi would always look bad in comparison. I think he's doing okay without being outstanding. 

Russel +1 pace (85) - still far too low, dont balance it team intern but overall, the Williams car performance is ok just Russels pace needs a buff!   - Cannot agree more. At least it's his last season of this as he'll be minimum 87 rated at the start of next year and slowly improving (if he understands the car enough to look like he's the same gap off Lewis that Valtteri is)

Tsunoa +1 pace (77) - its ok considering his recent form - He was dismal since the first race but he has made Q3 and did okay in wheel-to-wheel against Hammy. 

Giovinazzi +1 pace (83) - considering no quali pace its ok to have him still lover than Räikkönen but getting closer is good -  Unfortunately I think the last two races have doomed his career so it's nice he's going out on a sort-of high. 

Ocon -2 pace (79) - same as with Latifi... - he has faded since his win but I think that's effect, more than cause. The anomaly of Ocon winning a race means he's suddenly being held to a higher standard but he's performing to where the car is at. It's Alonso who isn't. 

Gasly -12 awareness (87) - a bit much no? - I get the Monza incident where he lost his wing was clumsy... but not worthy of a 12 point demotion. So it's the contact with Alonso that wasn't actually his fault. I think a little harsh, yes.  Although, 99 was always a ridiculous score for awareness. 

Leclerc -1 pace (90)..... ***? - Not saying  too many more words about the travesty that is their perception of Leclerc's ability as it's just repetitively criminal.   He did well at Turkey until the same poor strategy call that also affected Norris. Also battling at the front at Turkey..   What more can he do in that Ferrari?!

Alonso +1 pace (89)... Alpine 3rd best car on the grid or what? should rather be like 92 pace seriously  - Alonso is bringing it.  That Turkey incident has cost him awareness too but Alonso is in his boss-mode again in terms of what he's doing with an inferior car.  It's a shame he declines so quickly in career mode and has like 78 pace after Season 4 so I don't think it'll change much in career mode, just Grand Prix. 

Norris +1 pace (92) - thats fair IMO -  Getting your first pole should result in this. He's been really good this season. 

Ricciardo -1 pace (86) - also fair - Hard to really argue. Even his win wasn't really on outright pace over Norris. 

Perez -1 pace (87) - Turkey was good but overall its okay  - I agree he did well at Turkey. Maybe.   I think he should have been doing something similar every race beforehand and finishing minimum top 5... but it's hard to sound like i'm not Perez bashing.

 

I've just got to the stage where I think individual driver ratings don't particularly matter. It's all about balancing the driver/car performance balance with little tweaks.  I did think them granting control over ratings to the player would help balance the game more but I think it's actually for the best that they didn't. I imagine they're doing it for a reason and that us giving drivers the ratings we think they deserve will cause the balancing to go all out of whack. 

 

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

I can't remember the last one of these that I thought "hey, that's not a bad change, actually!". I always notice things I disagree with... mainly, everything they change. Or don't change.   

Your noting of the changes is helpful though! 

I can agree that the only reason why Max is dropping is to fix the car balancing issue. I get the whole Monza incident but Lewis has been involved in alot more incidents this year. I know it looks like i'm doing the usual internet thing where you try to pull down one to make the other look better, but it's not intended that way.   Those two are in a league of their own so can only be compared against each other. I think the Merc has finally understood their car post-Silverstone so they've improved, particularly in the last few races. It's not like Hamilton has got better, or Max has got worse. Just that the Merc has and it needs to be balanced without improving Merc too much and another Bottas wins every race scenario. 

Mazepin -1 pace (65) - wont make any big difference and was ok before   - I really don't think anyone will complain about Maz demotions. 😂   Mick has once again surged way ahead in the last few races in terms of performance. Completely justified. 

Latifi -2 pace (71) - Actually improving his pace compared to Russel.  - Completely agree. Russell is in the form of his F1 career (in particular, qualifying) and Latifi would always look bad in comparison. I think he's doing okay without being outstanding. 

Russel +1 pace (85) - still far too low, dont balance it team intern but overall, the Williams car performance is ok just Russels pace needs a buff!   - Cannot agree more. At least it's his last season of this as he'll be minimum 87 rated at the start of next year and slowly improving (if he understands the car enough to look like he's the same gap off Lewis that Valtteri is)

Tsunoa +1 pace (77) - its ok considering his recent form - He was dismal since the first race but he has made Q3 and did okay in wheel-to-wheel against Hammy. 

Giovinazzi +1 pace (83) - considering no quali pace its ok to have him still lover than Räikkönen but getting closer is good -  Unfortunately I think the last two races have doomed his career so it's nice he's going out on a sort-of high. 

Ocon -2 pace (79) - same as with Latifi... - he has faded since his win but I think that's effect, more than cause. The anomaly of Ocon winning a race means he's suddenly being held to a higher standard but he's performing to where the car is at. It's Alonso who isn't. 

Gasly -12 awareness (87) - a bit much no? - I get the Monza incident where he lost his wing was clumsy... but not worthy of a 12 point demotion. So it's the contact with Alonso that wasn't actually his fault. I think a little harsh, yes.  Although, 99 was always a ridiculous score for awareness. 

Leclerc -1 pace (90)..... ***? - Not saying  too many more words about the travesty that is their perception of Leclerc's ability as it's just repetitively criminal.   He did well at Turkey until the same poor strategy call that also affected Norris. Also battling at the front at Turkey..   What more can he do in that Ferrari?!

Alonso +1 pace (89)... Alpine 3rd best car on the grid or what? should rather be like 92 pace seriously  - Alonso is bringing it.  That Turkey incident has cost him awareness too but Alonso is in his boss-mode again in terms of what he's doing with an inferior car.  It's a shame he declines so quickly in career mode and has like 78 pace after Season 4 so I don't think it'll change much in career mode, just Grand Prix. 

Norris +1 pace (92) - thats fair IMO -  Getting your first pole should result in this. He's been really good this season. 

Ricciardo -1 pace (86) - also fair - Hard to really argue. Even his win wasn't really on outright pace over Norris. 

Perez -1 pace (87) - Turkey was good but overall its okay  - I agree he did well at Turkey. Maybe.   I think he should have been doing something similar every race beforehand and finishing minimum top 5... but it's hard to sound like i'm not Perez bashing.

 

I've just got to the stage where I think individual driver ratings don't particularly matter. It's all about balancing the driver/car performance balance with little tweaks.  I did think them granting control over ratings to the player would help balance the game more but I think it's actually for the best that they didn't. I imagine they're doing it for a reason and that us giving drivers the ratings we think they deserve will cause the balancing to go all out of whack. 

 

Im glad that one agrees for most of this😄 i think its much more balancing the car performances than anything at this point.. They dont wanna bother with another performance patch which is fine, but i think making some obvious changes (Alonso and Russel) wouldnt be much asked.. (possibly Ferrari drivers too but to a lesser extent).. If i knew how exactly the driver ratings are affecting the AI speed (possibly hard coded AI pace - not easily edited) i could say why they dont make it accessable for players to decide and in the end it might even be a kinda licensing, Hamilton wouldnt want to see his haters put him at 1 pace and lose everything in a Merc, that would be stupid but surely happening sadly.. But i think some better balancing would be possible and not too hard to get the right numbers but i also agree they will have their reasons for why they do it this way, im just curious what this reason is

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay...Codies, can you just allow us to change stats ourselves please? 

This is definitely the worst update so far. The sooner we can change them in game ourselves the better because these are just getting worse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Liaveil said:

Okay...Codies, can you just allow us to change stats ourselves please? 

This is definitely the worst update so far. The sooner we can change them in game ourselves the better because these are just getting worse.

Or let people decide the ratings who not only go by the end results😂

Idk if it is really possible to make them changeable for players.. If the lines AI take are hard coded its impossible

Edited by Meza994
Link to post
Share on other sites

The derate of Gasly and Alonso is a joke.

 

Alonso driving his life out of this car since Baku and get a buff immediately after one **** race. What is with Sotschi, where he nearly drove to the podium?

While drivers like Vettel hanging around there without any special and still being on 92 overall.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jaketa said:

The derate of Gasly and Alonso is a joke.

 

Alonso driving his life out of this car since Baku and get a buff immediately after one **** race. What is with Sotschi, where he nearly drove to the podium?

While drivers like Vettel hanging around there without any special and still being on 92 overall.

Please keep in mind the overall rating consists of not only pace.. Alonsos rating went down because his Awareness and Racecraft went down and i can understand and support his awareness drop! Racecraft should still be same (was 93) at least and his pace actually got buffed in this rating update, but only +1 which is way too little considering his speed currently

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

Or let people decide the ratings who not only go by the end results😂

Idk if it is really possible to make them changeable for players.. If the lines AI take are hard coded its impossible

If people do completely take liberties, then I imagine it will cause issues but then that's their own fault if they're lowballing drivers.  I feel if you sabotage your own game to be petty to a fictional interpretation of a real life person (for example, giving Hamilton 1 pace) then it's your own fault.

If you're only tweaking them by a few points here and there then I don't think it makes much, if any, difference.  During MyTeam/Career, their stats are fluctuating anyway so little changes here and there don't break the game.    The only issue I can think of is that you accidentally make someone purely dominant by accident but you could always tweak their stats again if they're winning by a country mile. 

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

If people do completely take liberties, then I imagine it will cause issues but then that's their own fault if they're lowballing drivers.  I feel if you sabotage your own game to be petty to a fictional interpretation of a real life person (for example, giving Hamilton 1 pace) then it's your own fault.

If you're only tweaking them by a few points here and there then I don't think it makes much, if any, difference.  During MyTeam/Career, their stats are fluctuating anyway so little changes here and there don't break the game.    The only issue I can think of is that you accidentally make someone purely dominant by accident but you could always tweak their stats again if they're winning by a country mile. 

Agree but as i already said twice, if the pace is hard coded its impossible, would be nice to get some official statement to this topic @BarryBL😏

Link to post
Share on other sites

If they were hardcoded they wouldnt fluctuate or have any stat boosts from activities or facilities surely.

Exp/Racecraft/Awareness/Pace

- Hamilton: 93/94/91/98

- Bottas: 77/87/92/91

- Verstappen: 71/93/90/98

- Perez: 82/90/85/87

- Leclerc: 64/92/86/94

- Sainz: 71/91/92/90

- Vettel: 92/89/87/89

- Stroll: 64/89/81/83

- Ricciardo: 82/93/90/91*

- Norris: 62/90/87/92

- Alonso: 99/95/90/93

- Ocon: 62/88/91/84

- Gasly: 66/92/89/91

- Tsunoda: 51/84/79/81

- Raikkonen: 99/91/84/86

- Giovinazzi: 62/85/79/83

- Mick: 51/81/85/85

- Mazepin: 51/65/70/74

- Russell: 62/83/85/90

- Latifi: 58/73/80/78

- Michael: 96/93/93/96

- Senna: 79/94/90/98

- Prost: 85/92/94/94

- Rosberg: 82/91/90/93

- Button: 97/91/96/88

* With Ricciardo, I'd have his Focus start lower so he's further behind Norris. Might even do the same for Vettel; increase stats slightly but low default focus.

Left Coulthard and Massa off as they're fine I think.

This is how I'd have the stats personally if I could set them myself.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Every time new driver ratings are being released, I cant help to cry out for a stat editor so we can finally solve this ourselves 🙂 Meanwhile, I have come to the conclusion that, for whatever reason, this will never happen, not any time soon at least. So, lets look at other possible solutions.

What if we concluded that driver stat ratings are not useful to be "public" because in the end people find it hard to agree with them / accept them, and it does not really "add" anything to the game, especially because players in general know, which driver has accumulated how many championships, and who would beat whom under identical circumstances. Why not rather rate drivers in classes?

It is clear to see that only 2 drivers are championship contenders (class "A"). There are a bunch of drivers, who have been world champions before and / or are evenly matched in performance with their teammates - given they were in better cars, they might be challengers for a championship (class "B"). Then there are drivers with quite some F1 experience, who are being used as "wingmen" or in teams that are not really top notch, even if they would sit in a better car, their teammates would most likely outperform them (class "C"). Finally, there are fairly new drivers which do not yet have enough experience to be rated any higher (class "D"). And for certain drivers who make the impression that they do not really belong into F1 due to their performance shown so far, there is the lowest branch (class "E"). To take this concept one step further, a driver might also "lead" his class, or be a backmarker in his class.

Basically it could / would look like this:

A - Hamilton, Verstappen
B - Leclerc, Norris, Russell, Sainz, Gasly, Alonso, Vettel
C - Bottas, Ricciardo, Perez, Raikkonen, Ocon, Stroll
D - Giovinazzi, Tsunoda, Schumacher, Latifi
E - Mazepin

Bottom line, we would rather solve in a debate, if Latifi belongs into "D" or "E", and if Ricciardo has to be "C" or can just make "B", than to find a solution if Verstappen rating 92 versus Bottas rating 91 was anywhere near fair, let alone realistic. Dont you think?

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Liaveil said:

If they were hardcoded they wouldnt fluctuate or have any stat boosts from activities or facilities surely.

Exp/Racecraft/Awareness/Pace

- Hamilton: 93/94/91/98

- Bottas: 77/87/92/91

- Verstappen: 71/93/90/98

- Perez: 82/90/85/87

- Leclerc: 64/92/86/94

- Sainz: 71/91/92/90

- Vettel: 92/89/87/89

- Stroll: 64/89/81/83

- Ricciardo: 82/93/90/91*

- Norris: 62/90/87/92

- Alonso: 99/95/90/93

- Ocon: 62/88/91/84

- Gasly: 66/92/89/91

- Tsunoda: 51/84/79/81

- Raikkonen: 99/91/84/86

- Giovinazzi: 62/85/79/83

- Mick: 51/81/85/85

- Mazepin: 51/65/70/74

- Russell: 62/83/85/90

- Latifi: 58/73/80/78

- Michael: 96/93/93/96

- Senna: 79/94/90/98

- Prost: 85/92/94/94

- Rosberg: 82/91/90/93

- Button: 97/91/96/88

* With Ricciardo, I'd have his Focus start lower so he's further behind Norris. Might even do the same for Vettel; increase stats slightly but low default focus.

Left Coulthard and Massa off as they're fine I think.

This is how I'd have the stats personally if I could set them myself.

Good argument but we wont know whats up with it till Codies tell us😕

Overall i think those stats are pretty accurate considering there is no quali pace race pace differentiation for cars and drivers, Tsunoda is a tough one tho because he has bad form in the later season and not at start.. Also Russel should at least be 92 considering he has fairly similar skill to Leclerc (quali pace vs race pace) and i think 94 is fair as a compromise for Leclerc

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Schneehase said:

Every time new driver ratings are being released, I cant help to cry out for a stat editor so we can finally solve this ourselves 🙂 Meanwhile, I have come to the conclusion that, for whatever reason, this will never happen, not any time soon at least. So, lets look at other possible solutions.

What if we concluded that driver stat ratings are not useful to be "public" because in the end people find it hard to agree with them / accept them, and it does not really "add" anything to the game, especially because players in general know, which driver has accumulated how many championships, and who would beat whom under identical circumstances. Why not rather rate drivers in classes?

It is clear to see that only 2 drivers are championship contenders (class "A"). There are a bunch of drivers, who have been world champions before and / or are evenly matched in performance with their teammates - given they were in better cars, they might be challengers for a championship (class "B"). Then there are drivers with quite some F1 experience, who are being used as "wingmen" or in teams that are not really top notch, even if they would sit in a better car, their teammates would most likely outperform them (class "C"). Finally, there are fairly new drivers which do not yet have enough experience to be rated any higher (class "D"). And for certain drivers who make the impression that they do not really belong into F1 due to their performance shown so far, there is the lowest branch (class "E"). To take this concept one step further, a driver might also "lead" his class, or be a backmarker in his class.

Basically it could / would look like this:

A - Hamilton, Verstappen
B - Leclerc, Norris, Russell, Sainz, Gasly, Alonso, Vettel
C - Bottas, Ricciardo, Perez, Raikkonen, Ocon, Stroll
D - Giovinazzi, Tsunoda, Schumacher, Latifi
E - Mazepin

Bottom line, we would rather solve in a debate, if Latifi belongs into "D" or "E", and if Ricciardo has to be "C" or can just make "B", than to find a solution if Verstappen rating 92 versus Bottas rating 91 was anywhere near fair, let alone realistic. Dont you think?

I think that is already a big problem because the overall rating is affected by things that mostly dont get into the results of a driver, awareness, experience and to some degree racecraft dont matter with a good car.. Besides i dont like the thinking that Hamilton and Verstappen are another league which would and was easily proved wrong before.. Verstappen was mostly equal to Ricciardo in their times at Red Bull, Hamilton barely better than Rosberg.. Given the same car i think all of Class B (depends on the rear for Vettel) could equal Hamilton and Verstappen, Ricciardo might even do that, Räikkönen past his prime (for quite a few years lol).. But Schumacher is definitely on level with Ocon and Stroll, that Haas is a dreadful car.. Problem with all those things is that fans can not really tell what is the car and what is the driver.. If Codemasters had all the data of the teams for grip, engine power etc. then it would be possible to make such a rating in a fairly objective and accurate manner..

But to get back to where i started do i think Bottas has enough awareness and racecraft to justify a 91 rating? No lol his only "outstanding" skill is his saturday pace which is near Hamilton but then again Hamilton has become stronger on sundays sooo yeah Bottas is IMO fairly equal to Perez in a car that suits both the same (Red Bull is a though to drive car)

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Meza994 said:

Good argument but we wont know whats up with it till Codies tell us😕

Overall i think those stats are pretty accurate considering there is no quali pace race pace differentiation for cars and drivers, Tsunoda is a tough one tho because he has bad form in the later season and not at start.. Also Russel should at least be 92 considering he has fairly similar skill to Leclerc (quali pace vs race pace) and i think 94 is fair as a compromise for Leclerc

Yeah I think that's a big problem with the stats; there isnt enough. Racecraft can be split into offensive and defensive. Awareness should be it's own stat but then there should be Consistency, Tyre Management and Wet Weather separately as well and then, like you say, race pace and qualifying pace should be seperate too.

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Liaveil said:

Okay...Codies, can you just allow us to change stats ourselves please? 

This is definitely the worst update so far. The sooner we can change them in game ourselves the better because these are just getting worse.

The ability to adjust ratings and make our own driver transfers would eliminate a lot of issues. It took forever to get the ability to adjust ratings in madden but EA finally did it so maybe it’ll happen some day. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

So it doesn't look like they ate going to nurf the mighty bottas . In game you would think it was bottas with 7 titles to his name . And broke every record . In F1 . In previous games it wasent an issue as . Every season one driver would out perform his teammate . Then the following season . It would be the other driver . But that doesn't seem to be the case in this year's game . Who ever is doing these driver ratings is other . A bot fan . Or Lewis hater . Even with Merc having the 3rd fastest car botras is still winning every race .

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, PaulLynch said:

So it doesn't look like they ate going to nurf the mighty bottas . In game you would think it was bottas with 7 titles to his name . And broke every record . In F1 . In previous games it wasent an issue as . Every season one driver would out perform his teammate . Then the following season . It would be the other driver . But that doesn't seem to be the case in this year's game . Who ever is doing these driver ratings is other . A bot fan . Or Lewis hater . Even with Merc having the 3rd fastest car botras is still winning every race .

Its not the driver ratings that make Bottas OP.. Its the stats bonuses.. the make him exactly the same as Hamilton stats wise..

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

Its not the driver ratings that make Bottas OP.. Its the stats bonuses.. the make him exactly the same as Hamilton stats wise..

The facility bonuses are an issue. There was a period a few months ago where they were turned off and it was kinda working in terms of balancing (except your F2 MyTeam teammate was pants and wouldn't grow).

Whenever they're active, every driver gets a 10+ or 15+ and it's like they're all 99 rated for the most part.   It's a particular scenario where you could have a 4m Gasly and he'd have the same stats as £20m Lewis... so nobody would ever choose Lewis for 5x the money. It seemed to affect second drivers more than first drivers and it was most evident with Bottas as he's the most obvious barometer of comparison. 

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

The facility bonuses are an issue. There was a period a few months ago where they were turned off and it was kinda working in terms of balancing (except your F2 MyTeam teammate was pants and wouldn't grow).

Whenever they're active, every driver gets a 10+ or 15+ and it's like they're all 99 rated for the most part.   It's a particular scenario where you could have a 4m Gasly and he'd have the same stats as £20m Lewis... so nobody would ever choose Lewis for 5x the money. It seemed to affect second drivers more than first drivers and it was most evident with Bottas as he's the most obvious barometer of comparison. 

I miss that patch when the facility bonuses were broken.. was far more realistic except for drivers like Russell, Sainz and F2 drivers not improving. 

With this update Bottas is now the clear number 1 in game if you have personnel facilities at rank 2. Gasly's awareness nerf means he doesnt get 100 anymore. But he still comes above Hamilton and equal with Verstappen.

With the facility bonuses, Bottas has 100 in pace/awareness/racecraft whereas Hamilton is getting 100 pace and racecraft but only 95 awareness. That small stat difference is the problem, like you say.

They desperately need to rework or remove the facility bonuses. They're honestly ruining an otherwise brilliant career mode.

  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...