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[OFF TOPIC] Sebastien Loëb Rally EVO devs

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WRC 5 or SLRE? Well both I guess.

But to be fair again, the sound could make you avoid Gran Turismo too, but there's a lot of fun in GT. Its dirt/snow racing was fairly competent too I think, if lacking in quantity.

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Oh sorry. WRC 5 - I have not yet heard SLRE. I'm sure it will be poo though since it's Milestone.
The sound was indeed bad in Gran Turismo. I don't play on consoles nowadays (last one I owned was a PS2) so I don't know about their newer games - but Gran Turismo 3-4 did indeed have rather crap sounds. They had other redeeming qualities that made up for that though, unlike WRC 5 that is just horse vomit through and through.

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And to be really fair, given the Dirt games, which were dudebro versions of Sega Rally, I didn't expect the Codies to make Dirt Rally.

I wouldn't go that far. DiRT, DiRT 2 and DiRT 3 weren't really all that different from the entire Colin McRae Rally series.
They've always walked that simcade line.
DiRT 3 is certainly a hell of a lot more of a sim than CMR and CMR 2 were, never mind Sega Rally 2 or V-Rally 2.
I'd say the original Colin McRae DiRT was more simulation than any CMR game, except for maybe CMR3.

Mind you, I've recently been playing the rather rare Direct3D version of Sega Rally, so yeah, it's pretty fresh in my mind just how big that gap really is. That was a game which didn't even have any damage, your reward for picking a manual gearbox was a straight up higher top speed and the Stratos was faster than the Celica or Delta Integrale.
It's about as pure, old school arcade as you can get. None of the newer games, not even WRC5, can really be compared to it.

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ramPage16 said:
Porkhammer, our resident horse vomit expert.
It's fun to replace the word "bad" with random horrid stuff. It makes me laugh. I'm easily amused though.

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Oh sorry. WRC 5 - I have not yet heard SLRE. I'm sure it will be poo though since it's Milestone.
The sound was indeed bad in Gran Turismo. I don't play on consoles nowadays (last one I owned was a PS2) so I don't know about their newer games - but Gran Turismo 3-4 did indeed have rather crap sounds. They had other redeeming qualities that made up for that though, unlike WRC 5 that is just horse vomit through and through.
I've only watched videos, and I think it's common sense that WRC5 sound is terrible. Watching these SLRE videos, I can't help but think their sound is just as bad.

I have GT5 and 6 on PS3, and the sound is still... not exactly terrible, but anaemic. It still has PS2 car models too. It's a bit like Bethesda games, there are some serious flaws and anachronisms, but it has its heart in the right place and still is a lot of fun. Driving the Quattro S1 on dirt/snow tracks is great fun, sadly the dirt/snow racing is just a little byproduct that won't occupy you for long. The focus is obviously on tarmac racing, and the Nordschleife in particular. Hotlapping the Nordschleife is as exhilarating as it ever was, no doubt, and even better with the improved physics.

Sound is great in Dirt Rally, and I heard many people say it's the best engine sound they ever listened to in any racing game. I mean, I feel like the king of the world in the Group A Impreza just because it sounds so good, even though I'm 15-20 seconds behind you.

Dirt Rally needs the Quattro S1. It would be just permanent instadeath, but that insane 5-cylinder sound needs a properly insane car.

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BrySkye said:
And to be really fair, given the Dirt games, which were dudebro versions of Sega Rally, I didn't expect the Codies to make Dirt Rally.

I wouldn't go that far. DiRT, DiRT 2 and DiRT 3 weren't really all that different from the entire Colin McRae Rally series.
They've always walked that simcade line.
DiRT 3 is certainly a hell of a lot more of a sim than CMR and CMR 2 were, never mind Sega Rally 2 or V-Rally 2.
I'd say the original Colin McRae DiRT was more simulation than any CMR game, except for maybe CMR3.

Mind you, I've recently been playing the rather rare Direct3D version of Sega Rally, so yeah, it's pretty fresh in my mind just how big that gap really is. That was a game which didn't even have any damage, your reward for picking a manual gearbox was a straight up higher top speed and the Stratos was faster than the Celica or Delta Integrale.
It's about as pure, old school arcade as you can get. None of the newer games, not even WRC5, can really be compared to it.
I always said the CMR games are exaggerated for their sim racing value. They were excellent back in the day, and more realistic than the Dirt games, but hardly simulators. I'm generally opposed to the "omg it's so frickin' hard everything else is arcade" RBR fanboys, but RBR did set a standard that hasn't been challenged before Dirt Rally.

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I thought that latest trailer had decent sound, especially stratos and fiat 131, if it's real ingame sound ofcourse

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sqdstr said:
I thought that latest trailer had decent sound, especially stratos and fiat 131, if it's real ingame sound ofcourse
Don't count on it. Amateurs like to use real-life sounds to glue on top of their trailers.

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Disagree with me all you want, @steviejb , but don't blame me when you realise you've made a terrible error in judgement and would rather be sitting in a foxhole rather than sitting playing that game. 

When I say "terrible error in judgement", I don't just mean going for a chod without toilet paper. I'm talking much worse. Let your imagination flow. 

Though don't get me wrong - always make sure you have toilet paper... always. 

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Thanks for calling me out. Is there any need to describe these various games as different wars? No? Thought not. It's not funny. Talk about several steps over the top. I love DiRT Rally, I'm administrating a league with it, yet I've had fun with WRC 3 & now WRC 5 and I suspect I'll get quite a lot of fun out of SLRE as well. WRC 5 certainly has more than its fair share of issues and shouldn't have been released in the state it was, but I've still had fun. If SLRE turns out to actually be a sim? Wonderful! If not? I won't resort to calling it a war where thousands of people have died and will have fun with it anyway. I've played so many rally games, CMR 1 to 2005, the original DiRT, Mobil 1 RC, the PS2 WRC games, V-Rally 3 and RBR among the long, long list. They've all had their issues and all had their positives. The bashing that is taking place in this thread is just so over the top it's ridiculous. I'm not saying don't be cautious, but what's gone on in this thread? Way over the top, but maybe that's just me. :smile: 

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Disagree with me all you want, @steviejb , but don't blame me when you realise you've made a terrible error in judgement and would rather be sitting in a foxhole rather than sitting playing that game. 

When I say "terrible error in judgement", I don't just mean going for a chod without toilet paper. I'm talking much worse. Let your imagination flow. 

Though don't get me wrong - always make sure you have toilet paper... always. 
To be fair, making allusions to real wars could always be considered in poor taste, especially amongst people with relatives in the forces.

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I really hope there were better challengers in the future, but for now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7YjD9PYqOg
SLRE needs to get better than that, urgently

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steviejb said:
Thanks for calling me out. Is there any need to describe these various games as different wars? No? Thought not. It's not funny. Talk about several steps over the top. I love DiRT Rally, I'm administrating a league with it, yet I've had fun with WRC 3 & now WRC 5 and I suspect I'll get quite a lot of fun out of SLRE as well. WRC 5 certainly has more than its fair share of issues and shouldn't have been released in the state it was, but I've still had fun. If SLRE turns out to actually be a sim? Wonderful! If not? I won't resort to calling it a war where thousands of people have died and will have fun with it anyway. I've played so many rally games, CMR 1 to 2005, the original DiRT, Mobil 1 RC, the PS2 WRC games, V-Rally 3 and RBR among the long, long list. They've all had their issues and all had their positives. The bashing that is taking place in this thread is just so over the top it's ridiculous. I'm not saying don't be cautious, but what's gone on in this thread? Way over the top, but maybe that's just me. :smile: 
BrySkye said:
Disagree with me all you want, @steviejb , but don't blame me when you realise you've made a terrible error in judgement and would rather be sitting in a foxhole rather than sitting playing that game. 

When I say "terrible error in judgement", I don't just mean going for a chod without toilet paper. I'm talking much worse. Let your imagination flow. 

Though don't get me wrong - always make sure you have toilet paper... always. 
To be fair, making allusions to real wars could always be considered in poor taste, especially amongst people with relatives in the forces.


I thought my light-hearted structure was obvious enough, hence the literal toilet humour. I am in fact very close to the happenings on tour, so my comments were not absent minded, I assure you.

It's a shame that text doesn't properly convey the tone, but at the same time it's easy to offend on the internet :] 

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steviejb said:
The bashing that is taking place in this thread is just so over the top it's ridiculous. I'm not saying don't be cautious, but what's gone on in this thread? Way over the top, but maybe that's just me. :smile: 
I don't think it would get half the bashing it does if it wasn't for the devs talking about how much of a simulation it is every chance they get. If someone wants to make a fun, race/rally game that's a bit removed from reality, more power to them. Most of the bashing for WRC5 didn't start until it was released and was buggy as heck. One of the devs working on it explicitly stated it's not, nor ever was to be considered a simulation in any way shape or form. But when you have devs going on and on about how realistic the car handling is, how realistic the stages are, etc. and everything that's been shown of it so far is no where close to looking like reality, yeah it can piss some people off. To me, that's false advertising. I can't stand advertising in general, and it makes it worse when you go out of your way to try and market your product as something it's not.

And it's sad that companies like Milestone can continue to thrive because most people are just mindless consumers. So, keep it up stevie, Milestone and companies like them are counting on you and others like you.

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function9 said:

steviejb said:
The bashing that is taking place in this thread is just so over the top it's ridiculous. I'm not saying don't be cautious, but what's gone on in this thread? Way over the top, but maybe that's just me. :smile: 
I don't think it would get half the bashing it does if it wasn't for the devs talking about how much of a simulation it is every chance they get. If someone wants to make a fun, race/rally game that's a bit removed from reality, more power to them. Most of the bashing for WRC5 didn't start until it was released and was buggy as heck. One of the devs working on it explicitly stated it's not, nor ever was to be considered a simulation in any way shape or form. But when you have devs going on and on about how realistic the car handling is, how realistic the stages are, etc. and everything that's been shown of it so far is no where close to looking like reality, yeah it can piss some people off. To me, that's false advertising. I can't stand advertising in general, and it makes it worse when you go out of your way to try and market your product as something it's not.

And it's sad that companies like Milestone can continue to thrive because most people are just mindless consumers. So, keep it up stevie, Milestone is counting on you and others like you.
I completely agree. If Milestone were a top-tier developer, they'd get smoked for their efforts, and we would see them be berated in a similar fashion to when the devs of Colonial Marines launched their game after lying and falsely advertising the quality of their product. It's a breaching of consumer rights laws. 

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function9 said:

steviejb said:


I completely agree. If Milestone were a top-tier developer, they'd get smoked for their efforts, and we would see them be berated in a similar fashion to when the devs of Colonial Marines launched their game after lying and falsely advertising the quality of their product. It's a breaching of consumer rights laws. 
I'm not sure, but I think there's no legal standard for what simulation and arcade is and I don't think there will be anytime soon, so they can get away with all impunity saying their game is simulation, and the herds will follow.
On the other hand, if what some people are looking for is arcade, and Milestone says it is arcade, then there wouldn't be any issues.

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I completely agree. If Milestone were a top-tier developer, they'd get smoked for their efforts, and we would see them be berated in a similar fashion to when the devs of Colonial Marines launched their game after lying and falsely advertising the quality of their product. It's a breaching of consumer rights laws. 
Woah, woah, woah.
...That's English for stop a horse.
Let's not cloud things to that extent. There is no basis for such a claim that this is anything like that situation. 
Colonial Marines was a clear case that the final product was very different from the promotional material.
You could play the tradeshow 'demos' videos, which were openly claimed to be actual gameplay, next to the final game and see drastic differences in quality that went far beyond the usual small amounts of touching up a game is subject too.
These demos were also used in the marketing material, including TV adverts, right up to release and that is why it became a class action lawsuit (and ultimately lost that class action status as it dragged on).
What was being shown wasn't just misrepresentative of the product, but they actively claimed it was representative of it, and that's why it was false advertising.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lGXDM3LGnk

Not until a game is released could any such a claim be made about any game and, to be quite honest, SLRE is unlikely to look worse than that short video released yesterday. It would be quite an achievement if it did.
Talking about things like simulation and a gameplay experience on the other hand are somewhat subjective to begin with.
DiRT Rally is absolutely not without it's own critics who have panned it for falling far short of what they believe a simulation should be and what they think the developers have claimed it to be.

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Most (maybe even all) games exaggerate their selling points pre-release & then underwhelm at launch (& afterwards).


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