Jump to content Jump to content

What should the F2 drivers rating in 2022 look like? (For the 2021 drivers)


Recommended Posts

 

Experience

Racecraft

Awareness

Qualifying Pace

Race Pace

Overall

Piastri

36

87

82

91

88

84

Shwartzman

41

85

85

83

87

82

Zhou

46

82

85

87

84

82

Ticktum

41

87

82

83

86

82

Pourchaire

36

82

79

86

84

80

Vips

38

85

79

82

83

80

Daruvala

41

85

88

81

81

81

Drugovich

41

85

88

82

83

82

Lawson

36

87

70

83

84

78

Boschung

44

76

79

82

78

77

Verschoor

36

85

76

70

80

75

Lundgaard

41

76

82

77

74

75

Armstrong

41

82

70

73

78

74

Viscaal

36

82

79

63

72

72

Beckmann

35

79

85

70

75

75

Nissany

46

73

79

67

70

71

Zendeli

35

82

79

64

73

72

Fittipaldi

34

79

82

59

69

70

Sato

42

70

79

53

59

64

Aitken

48

79

82

59

65

70

Samaia

41

73

73

49

57

62

Deledda

36

61

64

36

42

50

Experience: Amount of seasons/races in F2

Racecraft: would need to rewatch the races to decide on those, so these are just roughly equal to race pace and a lot of just personal feeling lol

Awareness: how often they didnt finish as i didnt a list of all penalties during a quick search

Qualifying pace: average qualifying result + a little influence of the gaps they had

Race pace: average race finish

Overall: basically same calculation as in 2021

 

Before any Lawson fan kills me, its just his awareness rating that pulls his overall rating down!

 

And for everybody who might think those are all too high because half the field is better than Tsunoda, Ocon etc. here are some examples of how i would rate the current F1 drivers - better driver ratings which would require the cars to differ more in pace to keep the balance but we all know thats how it is..

 

 

Experience

Racecraft

Awareness

Qualifying Pace

Race Pace

Overall

Hamilton

97

98

88

95

98

95

Verstappen

73

95

81

98

97

92

Alonso

99

98

92

94

93

95

Ocon

68

88

93

88

90

88

Russel

60

92

94

98

93

92

Tsunoda

54

90

79

91

86

85

Gasly

64

92

91

95

92

91

Latifi

57

84

86

86

81

83

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A consistency stat would be very usefull too which Ocon, Tsunoda and Latifi would have lower stats in so they would have some really bad weekends like they did in real life and before a Verstappen fan kills me: Verstappen has low awareness that reduces his Overall rating greatly (due to all the iffy things he did/that happened in 2021)! His overall pace is still best and racecraft only second to the likes of Alonso and Hamilton so chill😂

 

To anyone who wants to discuss this: This is only about the general direction, not about satisfying all players/fans opinion😜

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would enjoy a consistency stat actually. On "your scale" most things seem about right. Except Russell's Q pace should be like 110 managing to get a Williams car into Q3 and Q2 so often.

 

Most of the F2 driver's experience I think should be lowered as well though, because the highest # in-game for a 2020 F2 driver was 36, and for the most part your "experience" ratings are about on par with what is in-game and not skewed towards the upper end like the rest of the stats.

 

Also: as much as I like Alonso, I want him to go back to IndyCar (at least one weekend a year til he wins the Indy 500).

 

I am looking forward to some shake ups in 2022, i.e. Haas supposedly didn't give a **** about the 2021 car and just focused on 2022...so hopefully they won't be such an embarrassment next year. And looking even further forward, VW bringing either Audi or Porsche into the mix for 25? I think it is, and the MGU-H going bye bye.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CgSquall said:

I would enjoy a consistency stat actually. On "your scale" most things seem about right. Except Russell's Q pace should be like 110 managing to get a Williams car into Q3 and Q2 so often.

 

Most of the F2 driver's experience I think should be lowered as well though, because the highest # in-game for a 2020 F2 driver was 36, and for the most part your "experience" ratings are about on par with what is in-game and not skewed towards the upper end like the rest of the stats.

 

Also: as much as I like Alonso, I want him to go back to IndyCar (at least one weekend a year til he wins the Indy 500).

 

I am looking forward to some shake ups in 2022, i.e. Haas supposedly didn't give a **** about the 2021 car and just focused on 2022...so hopefully they won't be such an embarrassment next year. And looking even further forward, VW bringing either Audi or Porsche into the mix for 25? I think it is, and the MGU-H going bye bye.

Thanks for you input. Yes i also would want a consistency stat but its probably a bit harder to implement for CM than just qualifying pace so i didnt go for it just yet.

Regarding the F2 driver experience i went with higher stats because IMO they are too low in the game. The most experienced F2 drivers only get 36 EXP but as soon as they enter F1 they have 51 EXP without even a single race and only 1 season in F2? Dont think thats a fair judgement of the driver skills when some have almost 3.5 seasons in F2 like Jack Aitken (Still only 48 EXP)

And regarding RUS we need to see if he deserves a 99 quali pace, getting the absolute limit out of a slower car is easier than out of the likes of Merc and RB.. But yes, IMO he always gets one of the highest quali pace ratings!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think some are a bit high. Piastri has been great in F2 but can we say with 100% certainty he would be equally as strong in F1? Recent examples would be like Vandoorne, with his F2 performances he probably would have had stats not far off Gasly, but in F1 he didn't perform at the same level. If we go the other way around, Kobayashi. Looked like a backmarker in GP2 but was every bit as strong as Perez in F1. 

On the safe side, I wouldn't have any of them start any higher than Mick's current stats and most lower than Tsunoda. That being said, I think a lot of the F1 stats need changing to something like this: (Exp/Racecraft/Awareness/Pace-Qualifying Pace)

- Hamilton: 93/94/91/98-96

- Bottas: 77/87/92/90-93

- Verstappen: 71/92/87/98-97

- Perez: 82/90/87/87-86

- Leclerc: 64/92/86/94-96

- Sainz: 71/91/92/90-89

- Vettel: 92/89/87/89-89

- Stroll: 64/89/81/83-85

- Ricciardo: 82/93/90/91-90

- Norris: 62/90/87/92-95

- Alonso: 99/96/90/93-91

- Ocon: 62/88/91/86-88

- Gasly: 66/92/89/90-93

- Tsunoda: 51/86/79/83-86

- Raikkonen: 99/91/84/86-82

- Giovinazzi: 62/85/79/83-85

- Mick: 51/81/85/85-86

- Mazepin: 51/65/70/74-74

- Russell: 62/83/85/90-95

- Latifi: 58/73/80/80-82

- Michael: 96/93/93/96-95

- Senna: 79/94/90/98-98

- Prost: 85/92/94/94-92

- Rosberg: 82/91/90/93-95

- Button: 97/91/96/88-86

I'd go with 50/85/82/84 for Piastri and 51/84/83/81 for Zhou.

Along with splitting pace into qualifying pace and race pace, I would split racecraft into: Aggression, Braking and Defensive. Then add Tyre Management, Wet Weather Ability and Consistency as well alongside Experienced and Awareness.

Edited by Liaveil
Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ll do a proper reply with my own opinions soon as this is a topic I think is really interesting and quite relevant due to the weird scaling of the F2 2021 experience so far.

However, I think some of your ratings are a little high and others a little low. I don’t like the idea of having a rating baseline from 0-100 and then 90% of the drivers are in the upper eschelons of 75%+  That being said, I agree that the current ratings for the F2 make them borderline useless as you progress through MyTeam as they don’t match up to the F1 drivers. 
I’d have them cap out at 75-80 max but having strong growth so by season 2/3, they’re near 90.   I should mention that I don’t disagree with your general perception of the drivers though! (Except maybe Lundgaard and Armstrong) 

 

I also would like to mention that I think the criteria that they use (Experience, Awareness, Racecraft, Pace and Overall) (<—- Ignoring focus.)  doesn’t really work and that the driver rating system needs overhauling and amending to a system that is more efficient.  Maybe splitting qualifying and race as two different events. For example, Gio is a good qualifier but less so in the race and Kimi was the opposite.  You could do the same with the cars as George worked miracles with the Williams getting it into Q3 but would fall backwards in the race. I don’t think that’s down to his ability but the car doesn’t handle the race well. 
Good work though! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/17/2021 at 1:56 PM, Meza994 said:

 

 

Experience

 

Racecraft

 

Awareness

 

Qualifying Pace

 

Race Pace

 

Overall

 

Piastri

 

36

 

87

 

82

 

91

 

88

 

84

 

Shwartzman

 

41

 

85

 

85

 

83

 

87

 

82

 

Zhou

 

46

 

82

 

85

 

87

 

84

 

82

 

Ticktum

 

41

 

87

 

82

 

83

 

86

 

82

 

Pourchaire

 

36

 

82

 

79

 

86

 

84

 

80

 

Vips

 

38

 

85

 

79

 

82

 

83

 

80

 

Daruvala

 

41

 

85

 

88

 

81

 

81

 

81

 

Drugovich

 

41

 

85

 

88

 

82

 

83

 

82

 

Lawson

 

36

 

87

 

70

 

83

 

84

 

78

 

Boschung

 

44

 

76

 

79

 

82

 

78

 

77

 

Verschoor

 

36

 

85

 

76

 

70

 

80

 

75

 

Lundgaard

 

41

 

76

 

82

 

77

 

74

 

75

 

Armstrong

 

41

 

82

 

70

 

73

 

78

 

74

 

Viscaal

 

36

 

82

 

79

 

63

 

72

 

72

 

Beckmann

 

35

 

79

 

85

 

70

 

75

 

75

 

Nissany

 

46

 

73

 

79

 

67

 

70

 

71

 

Zendeli

 

35

 

82

 

79

 

64

 

73

 

72

 

Fittipaldi

 

34

 

79

 

82

 

59

 

69

 

70

 

Sato

 

42

 

70

 

79

 

53

 

59

 

64

 

Aitken

 

48

 

79

 

82

 

59

 

65

 

70

 

Samaia

 

41

 

73

 

73

 

49

 

57

 

62

 

Deledda

 

36

 

61

 

64

 

36

 

42

 

50

 

Experience: Amount of seasons/races in F2

Racecraft: would need to rewatch the races to decide on those, so these are just roughly equal to race pace and a lot of just personal feeling lol

Awareness: how often they didnt finish as i didnt a list of all penalties during a quick search

Qualifying pace: average qualifying result + a little influence of the gaps they had

Race pace: average race finish

Overall: basically same calculation as in 2021

 

Before any Lawson fan kills me, its just his awareness rating that pulls his overall rating down!

 

And for everybody who might think those are all too high because half the field is better than Tsunoda, Ocon etc. here are some examples of how i would rate the current F1 drivers - better driver ratings which would require the cars to differ more in pace to keep the balance but we all know thats how it is..

 

 

 

Experience

 

Racecraft

 

Awareness

 

Qualifying Pace

 

Race Pace

 

Overall

 

Hamilton

 

97

 

98

 

88

 

95

 

98

 

95

 

Verstappen

 

73

 

95

 

81

 

98

 

97

 

92

 

Alonso

 

99

 

98

 

92

 

94

 

93

 

95

 

Ocon

 

68

 

88

 

93

 

88

 

90

 

88

 

Russel

 

60

 

92

 

94

 

98

 

93

 

92

 

Tsunoda

 

54

 

90

 

79

 

91

 

86

 

85

 

Gasly

 

64

 

92

 

91

 

95

 

92

 

91

 

Latifi

 

57

 

84

 

86

 

86

 

81

 

83

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A consistency stat would be very usefull too which Ocon, Tsunoda and Latifi would have lower stats in so they would have some really bad weekends like they did in real life and before a Verstappen fan kills me: Verstappen has low awareness that reduces his Overall rating greatly (due to all the iffy things he did/that happened in 2021)! His overall pace is still best and racecraft only second to the likes of Alonso and Hamilton so chill😂

 

To anyone who wants to discuss this: This is only about the general direction, not about satisfying all players/fans opinion😜

I changed my mind.  It's easier to pick apart other peoples opinions than come up with my own from scratch!   I still may do it, but I don't expect there to be much interest in what I think individually! 

Starting with F1;   I think the scores are too high generally as I don't think anyone should be near 100 for anything except experience but i'm harsh!    My main concern is when everyone is scored highly then the game will be boring as everyone is reliable and fast. Kinda like the problem with F2 in the game as everyone is close in rating so it's just a train.    It's like in the Incredibles... When everyone is super... NOBODY WILL BE SUPER.  Muahaha. 

I think Alonso's qualifying score is too high.  He's never been a great qualifier and I think Ocon even out-qualified him over the season?  Alonso is always the guy i'd want in the car for Racecraft though.

I think you're a little harsh on Max's awareness. I know he made a few choice moves towards the end of the season. Was that due to a lack of awareness?  I doubt it. I think he knew exactly what he was doing every time. In honesty, I can only recall him making one big mistake all season and that was on one of the best laps i've ever seen at Jeddah.  Maybe the medium tyres flatspot in Abu Dhabi? Harsh call that, though.  I dont think excessively hard racing is a sign of a lack of awareness. 

I rate Tsunoda as a farly decent driver but I think his season was generally pony. He started off well, then single-handedly cost Alpha a better Constructors position by being bang average before looking better after nothing mattered any more.  Do we rate drivers on their actual ability, or do we rate them on their actual performances?  He'd have two contrasting scores dependant on which we would use.

I accept Russell is mostly a great qualifier but that is in respect of the Williams against Kubica and Latifi. Neither of which a true yardstick.  I'm curious to what he'll do in a Merc so I won't say you're wrong about 98 but I don't think he's quite justified it yet.  He's definitely one of the better ones on the grid though. 

 

Now to F2;

Again, I think they're all too high in general.  I think some should be ahead of F1 drivers (Maz, mainly) but I don't think they should be as low as they are now, I agree, with Shwartzy being top at 69/70.  I can't really say someone needs better scores than you've given them when they all need downgrading though! 

Having watched Piastri for the last 3 years, I don't think he's necessarily usually faster than his competitors... but he is smarter. He understands how to win a season and that's his main strength.  I admit I was surprised by his qualifying prowess last season though as he didn't show that in F3.  He should probably be the most rounded of the drivers and a first-choice for a MyTeam teammate. 

I don't rate Daruvala as exceptional. He was good in the Prema in F3 and i'm thinking he'll be in a Prema next year but I don't think he's all that. 

Pourchaire, I think, will be a superstar. I find it hard to give him an accurate score but I think he'll be the best of this field, so his growth stat should be immense.

Shwartzy would be a great driver if he could qualify worth a damn. I'd rate him low for that but amongst the highest for racing.

Vips was unlucky. He was always up there when the car was good, same with Lawson.  I always feel bad for Vips as he should have been the one to go to Alpha instead of Tsunoda but he chose poorly to go to Japan.  I rate him and Lawson but I don't rate the HiTech team.

I think Drugo is good. I don't know what happened last season at Uni but I think he'll be back to winning ways at MP. 

Lundgaard and Armstrong are good racers with appalling luck.  I'd have them in the top midfield drivers stat-wise.

Aitken is one I can't judge.  I think he's... average. Not bad, but not great.  I'd have him 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok @Liaveil and @SmokyAtom07 i can understand why youd have the drivers lower in general and reducing all drivers stats by 5-10 is reasonable. BUT as the car and setup are making the laptimes to ~99% in F1 and most drivers will be within 0.5s of each other on average, most times even less. I dont really go with the media on the glorification on Verstappen and Hamilton based on tricky cars and very inconsistent teammates. And dont forget, in the F1 game pace (which needs to be split as i did!!!) is gaining you on average 0.04s per lap per point. So by my stats Hamilton would have 0.7s better race pace than Latifi and most top F2 drivers! And i rate everybody from Lawson top higher than Latifi haha. I like to imagine what would happen if you give these drivers the same new car like put them all into F3 cars and i think most would be fairly close. But i can see reasons for making a bit more differences in racecraft and awareness! Its always awful to predict how a driver does, Hamilton had to fight against Piquet jr. in F2 and was miles ahead in F1 but these ratings are IMO about the potential they have based on their last season and especially going by Piastri he did a feat only done by Russel and Leclerc in recent history so his pace rating isnt off the moon imo.

However the stats are for the most part based on the last season, so now 2021 and considering how Alonso did in some qualifyings after his early problems (low focus😉) he deserves a good qualifying rating but 92 and 94 for race pace would possibly be better.. Looking at it now im not sure if i just got them both the wrong way (Ocon and Alonso) lol, made that list a bit stressed before work lol🤪

Anyway, i believe that most current top F2 drivers could compete quickly with most other drivers when they get a new car for both. Id make it so that F2 drivers start with a low focus stat as they have to get used to the cars first for like half a season. I also based all the pace ratings in F2 off of their results in qualifying and the races and after his first few worse weekends Piastri was wiping the floor with all drivers in qualifying basically lol and to get you a better sight of how much faster hed be in race trim by those ratings - Hed be not even 0.2s quicker than Lawson and only 0.04s quicker than Shwartzman. These are values that could be easily overcome by different setups (if you remember my suggestions for car performance variety they are fully applicable (except engine mode of course) to F2 and lead to 0.4-0.5s pace difference in addition to the pace so Piastri could be faster by like 0.6s in a race or be slower by 0.3s and all in between.

Regarding Lundgaard and Armstrong its quite possible that they would do better at better teams but to have a fairly "scientific" rating we need to base it on the results 😕 And for Verstappen its based on his recklessly aggressive moves it requires the other drivers to move out of the way with his late lunges and awareness in the game is not only about how aware Verstappen is but about how safe and clean a driver is and after this season its just low imo. And i didnt rate Daruvala exceptionally either haha lowest pace out of all top 9 drivers😛

BUT what i have to say about spreading the pace skills a lot further is when you look at Deledda its already at the low end and no driver will like himself shown in the game with 5 out of 100 pace rating.. And 36 Qpace is already too high for Deledda i know haha but the gap to Piastri was always like 0 pace to 100 pace and thats no joke😂 But he doesnt have toooo bad racecraft, did some fine moves in Abu Dhabi if memory serves correctly..

@Liaveil your ratings are also not bad although i think you did Button a bit dirty and Rosberg just a tad too good but thats also just my opinion and not like one of them needs 10 more or less.. Besides i doubt that we will see the iconic drivers back but thats just a feeling haha

Conclusion:

Reducing everybodies pace (qualifying and race) by 5 and racecraft/awareness for all by 5-15 - e.g. Deledda down to 36-46-49-31-37 and that only to keep him from sewing everybody😂 pace would deserve another 20 down for him buuut yeah.. And about the exact values for F1 drivers we could argue forever as the car makes up way too much to nail it down to 100% exact stats

For the F1 driver example more like this:

 

Experience

Racecraft

Awareness

Qualifying Pace

Race Pace

Overall

Hamilton

97

93

83

90

93

90

Verstappen

73

90

76

93

92

87

Alonso

99

93

87

88

89

90

Ocon

68

78

83

85

83

81

Russel

60

87

89

92

87

87

Tsunoda

54

80

79

86

81

80

Gasly

64

87

86

89

86

85

Latifi

57

69

81

81

76

76

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Meza994 said:

Ok @Liaveil and @SmokyAtom07 i can understand why youd have the drivers lower in general and reducing all drivers stats by 5-10 is reasonable. BUT as the car and setup are making the laptimes to ~99% in F1 and most drivers will be within 0.5s of each other on average, most times even less. I dont really go with the media on the glorification on Verstappen and Hamilton based on tricky cars and very inconsistent teammates. And dont forget, in the F1 game pace (which needs to be split as i did!!!) is gaining you on average 0.04s per lap per point. So by my stats Hamilton would have 0.7s better race pace than Latifi and most top F2 drivers! And i rate everybody from Lawson top higher than Latifi haha. I like to imagine what would happen if you give these drivers the same new car like put them all into F3 cars and i think most would be fairly close. But i can see reasons for making a bit more differences in racecraft and awareness! Its always awful to predict how a driver does, Hamilton had to fight against Piquet jr. in F2 and was miles ahead in F1 but these ratings are IMO about the potential they have based on their last season and especially going by Piastri he did a feat only done by Russel and Leclerc in recent history so his pace rating isnt off the moon imo.

However the stats are for the most part based on the last season, so now 2021 and considering how Alonso did in some qualifyings after his early problems (low focus😉) he deserves a good qualifying rating but 92 and 94 for race pace would possibly be better.. Looking at it now im not sure if i just got them both the wrong way (Ocon and Alonso) lol, made that list a bit stressed before work lol🤪

Anyway, i believe that most current top F2 drivers could compete quickly with most other drivers when they get a new car for both. Id make it so that F2 drivers start with a low focus stat as they have to get used to the cars first for like half a season. I also based all the pace ratings in F2 off of their results in qualifying and the races and after his first few worse weekends Piastri was wiping the floor with all drivers in qualifying basically lol and to get you a better sight of how much faster hed be in race trim by those ratings - Hed be not even 0.2s quicker than Lawson and only 0.04s quicker than Shwartzman. These are values that could be easily overcome by different setups (if you remember my suggestions for car performance variety they are fully applicable (except engine mode of course) to F2 and lead to 0.4-0.5s pace difference in addition to the pace so Piastri could be faster by like 0.6s in a race or be slower by 0.3s and all in between.

Regarding Lundgaard and Armstrong its quite possible that they would do better at better teams but to have a fairly "scientific" rating we need to base it on the results 😕 And for Verstappen its based on his recklessly aggressive moves it requires the other drivers to move out of the way with his late lunges and awareness in the game is not only about how aware Verstappen is but about how safe and clean a driver is and after this season its just low imo. And i didnt rate Daruvala exceptionally either haha lowest pace out of all top 9 drivers😛

BUT what i have to say about spreading the pace skills a lot further is when you look at Deledda its already at the low end and no driver will like himself shown in the game with 5 out of 100 pace rating.. And 36 Qpace is already too high for Deledda i know haha but the gap to Piastri was always like 0 pace to 100 pace and thats no joke😂 But he doesnt have toooo bad racecraft, did some fine moves in Abu Dhabi if memory serves correctly..

@Liaveil your ratings are also not bad although i think you did Button a bit dirty and Rosberg just a tad too good but thats also just my opinion and not like one of them needs 10 more or less.. Besides i doubt that we will see the iconic drivers back but thats just a feeling haha

Conclusion:

Reducing everybodies pace (qualifying and race) by 5 and racecraft/awareness for all by 5-15 - e.g. Deledda down to 36-46-49-31-37 and that only to keep him from sewing everybody😂 pace would deserve another 20 down for him buuut yeah.. And about the exact values for F1 drivers we could argue forever as the car makes up way too much to nail it down to 100% exact stats

For the F1 driver example more like this:

 

Experience

Racecraft

Awareness

Qualifying Pace

Race Pace

Overall

Hamilton

97

93

83

90

93

90

Verstappen

73

90

76

93

92

87

Alonso

99

93

87

88

89

90

Ocon

68

78

83

85

83

81

Russel

60

87

89

92

87

87

Tsunoda

54

80

79

86

81

80

Gasly

64

87

86

89

86

85

Latifi

57

69

81

81

76

76

I can see your logic and if it does work out as 0.7 seconds per lap between Lewis and Latifi then the mathematics do make sense. 
I don’t think Latifi is that bad tbh. He consistently did okay in F2 and he challenges George periodically. He’s not a showpiece driver but I don’t think he’s awful.  I think next year vs Albon is critical for him as Albon beat him in F2 but has had a year out.  I rate both of them as average with Albon being marginally better. If latifi isn’t close though, that’s a bad sign. George is a class ahead of both. 
Regarding your Piquet vs Lewis comment. Nelson wasn’t a bad driver and has won things.  He was teamed with Alonso in his arguably best era and Alonso is top 10 of all time.  Vandoorne was another who was a handy driver but got swallowed by Fernando. Lewis has obviously grown alot since then though.

I don’t doubt Piastri is a great driver but I don’t think he’s outright speed. He just understood the format better than everyone else. He’s clever and that’s important but I think George and Charles just impressed me more in their youth careers.  Piastri should be good, yes, but in a manner more like Sainz’s strong consistency than Charles’ highlight reel. (I hope that makes sense but what I mean is Charles will give you the poles and wins but Sainz will get you more strong results)  Oscar is a Sainz in that he’s both good and consistent… but not one that will dominate. (I know he did at the end of last F2 season but F1 is a different ballpark)
I agree that F2 drivers can challenge F1 drivers.  The fact that Tsunoda was rated 82 at the start and Shwartzy was 70 highlighted the big problem with the scores between the two formats. (I think Yuki was rated way too high and both should have been mid 70s) 

Regarding your point about Lundgaard/Armstrong, I think that’s the danger of using stats to justify ability.  Imagine you’re 15 races into the season and Hamilton was taken out in 7 races this year, his engine failed in another 5 and he had 3 races like Imola, Baku and Monaco.  He’d be lucky to get more than mid 60s on stats.  There’s no real science in looking at numbers without context.  Good drivers are good drivers and bad drivers are bad drivers. You can generally tell who is good but unlucky, who just isn’t good and who is just in the right place at the right time. 
Surely knowing what you’re doing and doing the Max-Lunge that requires other drivers to react isn’t low awareness is my point.  He knows the other driver must react and sacrifice their own velocity. It’s harsh, but ultimately fair, racing.  It works, evidently.  Lewis had SUPER-ENGINE in Brazil so isn’t a fair metric but Bottas struggles to overtake in the Merc. I guarantee Max would get through the traffic Bottas can’t by his lunging. Lewis was involved in the same incidents as Max (and more individual ones than Max this year) so why would Lewis’ be higher than Max’s?

Deledda was an embarrassment this year but you can’t say that as you’ll get sued 😂  I’m not too fussed he’s not 0 pace but he should be 1.5 to 2 seconds off a lap.  I only remember his racing against Caldwell who I don’t rate at all neither. Then Caldwell drove off in the distance once he was past so he could sabotage someone else’s race. 🙄

 

I get your opinion on both formulae of drivers and I understand the gaps and ratings you’ve put in.  Everyone will disagree on the exact ratings but I think that’s because they seem arbitrary anyway! 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

I can see your logic and if it does work out as 0.7 seconds per lap between Lewis and Latifi then the mathematics do make sense. 
I don’t think Latifi is that bad tbh. He consistently did okay in F2 and he challenges George periodically. He’s not a showpiece driver but I don’t think he’s awful.  I think next year vs Albon is critical for him as Albon beat him in F2 but has had a year out.  I rate both of them as average with Albon being marginally better. If latifi isn’t close though, that’s a bad sign. George is a class ahead of both. 
Regarding your Piquet vs Lewis comment. Nelson wasn’t a bad driver and has won things.  He was teamed with Alonso in his arguably best era and Alonso is top 10 of all time.  Vandoorne was another who was a handy driver but got swallowed by Fernando. Lewis has obviously grown alot since then though.

I don’t doubt Piastri is a great driver but I don’t think he’s outright speed. He just understood the format better than everyone else. He’s clever and that’s important but I think George and Charles just impressed me more in their youth careers.  Piastri should be good, yes, but in a manner more like Sainz’s strong consistency than Charles’ highlight reel. (I hope that makes sense but what I mean is Charles will give you the poles and wins but Sainz will get you more strong results)  Oscar is a Sainz in that he’s both good and consistent… but not one that will dominate. (I know he did at the end of last F2 season but F1 is a different ballpark)
I agree that F2 drivers can challenge F1 drivers.  The fact that Tsunoda was rated 82 at the start and Shwartzy was 70 highlighted the big problem with the scores between the two formats. (I think Yuki was rated way too high and both should have been mid 70s) 

Regarding your point about Lundgaard/Armstrong, I think that’s the danger of using stats to justify ability.  Imagine you’re 15 races into the season and Hamilton was taken out in 7 races this year, his engine failed in another 5 and he had 3 races like Imola, Baku and Monaco.  He’d be lucky to get more than mid 60s on stats.  There’s no real science in looking at numbers without context.  Good drivers are good drivers and bad drivers are bad drivers. You can generally tell who is good but unlucky, who just isn’t good and who is just in the right place at the right time. 
Surely knowing what you’re doing and doing the Max-Lunge that requires other drivers to react isn’t low awareness is my point.  He knows the other driver must react and sacrifice their own velocity. It’s harsh, but ultimately fair, racing.  It works, evidently.  Lewis had SUPER-ENGINE in Brazil so isn’t a fair metric but Bottas struggles to overtake in the Merc. I guarantee Max would get through the traffic Bottas can’t by his lunging. Lewis was involved in the same incidents as Max (and more individual ones than Max this year) so why would Lewis’ be higher than Max’s?

Deledda was an embarrassment this year but you can’t say that as you’ll get sued 😂  I’m not too fussed he’s not 0 pace but he should be 1.5 to 2 seconds off a lap.  I only remember his racing against Caldwell who I don’t rate at all neither. Then Caldwell drove off in the distance once he was past so he could sabotage someone else’s race. 🙄

 

I get your opinion on both formulae of drivers and I understand the gaps and ratings you’ve put in.  Everyone will disagree on the exact ratings but I think that’s because they seem arbitrary anyway! 

Ok so for Latifi/Albon - its gonna be truly interesting but i think Albon will have it, would it be without Latifis "good" performance in the late season it would be easy for Albon! But i think people underrate him a bit, just a bit, because of how difficult the Red Bull was to drive.

Piquet/Hamilton was just to strengthen your point that F2 performances dont need to make for equal performances in F1

I think its still better/equal pace to the best in F2, you dont get 0.2s faster in quali by just being smarter when compared to drivers who know these cars for 2 years more than you and after all i have rated Piastri pace wise a tiny bit better than Tsunoda, i dont see how that is anywhere too much haha we will need to see what Piastri can do in a F1 car, its always been the case that drivers can perform amazing in certain kinds of cars (Lawson in DTM) but be really average in others.. Who knows if Hamilton would even be mediocre in IndyCar or DTM or such, might just be the Formula cars that suit him, might be that he is great in all cars, doubt we will ever know. My Problem with your rating of Shwartzman and Tsunoda is that you imply that they are about 1s per lap slower than Hamilton on pure skill which i would highly doubt. For Tsunoda its inconsistency - which should be another stat! - and in general all top F2 drivers would be within around 0.5s of the top F1 drivers with enough time to get used to the car and if they are consistent. Not being used to a car cant reduce the skill of a driver IMO but there must be other ways like low focus for a driver that makes his debut season.

Regarding Lundgaard etc. thats the thing with my way of getting these results, i did only count all race finishes. Of course there was Silverstone for Lundgaard so its that could be counted out but besides that he didnt have anything major that made his results bad. The ratings are supposed to show the drivers recent form, if a driver was bad in a season he needs lower stats because of that. Being taken out etc. would be counted out of such things. If i were in charge of the ratings id just note anything special happening to drivers in each race so i can see how "valid" each result is. Everything else is just pure feeling and always influenced by bias. Context matters but in the end to get numbers you need numbers.

Awareness is the only stat that is anywhere near implying Verstappens "dangerous" lunges. Imo its not fair racing, he forces drivers to give up or crash which is not my definition of fair racing and yes i also hate how Senna drove and hate it each time any driver forces another car off track, i just dont see why people glorify it as great racing when its just bullying off track but thats another story. Verstappen had 7 races with sometimes multiple occasions where he crossed the line of fair racing imo or made mistakes, Hamilton had 6 races with questionable stuff but he did less questionable stuff per race (one **** move/mistake per race) Verstappen however did more often.. And before you think i hate Verstappen or some other nonsense, i prefer Verstappen over Hamilton, its just that i dont like his overaggressive style, aggressive is great but there is a line. And lets not fight about details here, i fear no matter if we can decide on a certain Awareness level for Verstappen CM wont use it haha

Yeah Deledda is slow AF but giving him less than 40 racecraft but be wrong he didnt crash out other drivers while racing them iirc and yes i know there werent many chances but the few times he did it didnt look too bad but at the end it wouldnt matter if his pace was around 40 haha he could have 99 racecraft and still never use it😂

 

I just think its important to have the top F2 drivers and lower F1 drivers not like 1-1.5s slower than the good drivers because your teammate will be super useless at the start of MyTeam and if you race for e.g. Williams you would stomp a Russel but see no tomorrow against the likes of Verstappen. However if they made Russel that much better (~93 pace) he would be 1s faster than Latifi which is also not how it was over the whole season and especially in the races!

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Meza994 said:

Ok so for Latifi/Albon - its gonna be truly interesting but i think Albon will have it, would it be without Latifis "good" performance in the late season it would be easy for Albon! But i think people underrate him a bit, just a bit, because of how difficult the Red Bull was to drive.

Piquet/Hamilton was just to strengthen your point that F2 performances dont need to make for equal performances in F1

I think its still better/equal pace to the best in F2, you dont get 0.2s faster in quali by just being smarter when compared to drivers who know these cars for 2 years more than you and after all i have rated Piastri pace wise a tiny bit better than Tsunoda, i dont see how that is anywhere too much haha we will need to see what Piastri can do in a F1 car, its always been the case that drivers can perform amazing in certain kinds of cars (Lawson in DTM) but be really average in others.. Who knows if Hamilton would even be mediocre in IndyCar or DTM or such, might just be the Formula cars that suit him, might be that he is great in all cars, doubt we will ever know. My Problem with your rating of Shwartzman and Tsunoda is that you imply that they are about 1s per lap slower than Hamilton on pure skill which i would highly doubt. For Tsunoda its inconsistency - which should be another stat! - and in general all top F2 drivers would be within around 0.5s of the top F1 drivers with enough time to get used to the car and if they are consistent. Not being used to a car cant reduce the skill of a driver IMO but there must be other ways like low focus for a driver that makes his debut season.

Regarding Lundgaard etc. thats the thing with my way of getting these results, i did only count all race finishes. Of course there was Silverstone for Lundgaard so its that could be counted out but besides that he didnt have anything major that made his results bad. The ratings are supposed to show the drivers recent form, if a driver was bad in a season he needs lower stats because of that. Being taken out etc. would be counted out of such things. If i were in charge of the ratings id just note anything special happening to drivers in each race so i can see how "valid" each result is. Everything else is just pure feeling and always influenced by bias. Context matters but in the end to get numbers you need numbers.

Awareness is the only stat that is anywhere near implying Verstappens "dangerous" lunges. Imo its not fair racing, he forces drivers to give up or crash which is not my definition of fair racing and yes i also hate how Senna drove and hate it each time any driver forces another car off track, i just dont see why people glorify it as great racing when its just bullying off track but thats another story. Verstappen had 7 races with sometimes multiple occasions where he crossed the line of fair racing imo or made mistakes, Hamilton had 6 races with questionable stuff but he did less questionable stuff per race (one **** move/mistake per race) Verstappen however did more often.. And before you think i hate Verstappen or some other nonsense, i prefer Verstappen over Hamilton, its just that i dont like his overaggressive style, aggressive is great but there is a line. And lets not fight about details here, i fear no matter if we can decide on a certain Awareness level for Verstappen CM wont use it haha

Yeah Deledda is slow AF but giving him less than 40 racecraft but be wrong he didnt crash out other drivers while racing them iirc and yes i know there werent many chances but the few times he did it didnt look too bad but at the end it wouldnt matter if his pace was around 40 haha he could have 99 racecraft and still never use it😂

 

I just think its important to have the top F2 drivers and lower F1 drivers not like 1-1.5s slower than the good drivers because your teammate will be super useless at the start of MyTeam and if you race for e.g. Williams you would stomp a Russel but see no tomorrow against the likes of Verstappen. However if they made Russel that much better (~93 pace) he would be 1s faster than Latifi which is also not how it was over the whole season and especially in the races!

I agree that Albon shows more than Latifi. I think it’ll be close at the start of the season but he’ll slowly edge away. I think they’re a well-matched team though.   I didn’t rate him that highly even in feeder series and I thought Kvyat would be a better bet at Red Bull so I can’t say I was too disappointed to see Albon fail as I was getting pelters after his first half-season when I said he’d stumble and he seemed relatively decent 😂

It is true that different drivers do better in different formulae. Jan Magnussen and Giorgio Pantano come to mind.   Both seen as true prodigies but floundered in F1. 
I get that you’re using statistics to judge the likes of Lundgaard/Armstrong but I just feel that such black and white analysis isn’t reflective of whether someone is good or not.  Obviously context is always helpful but he had a lot of bad luck. The Silverstone wheel incident, cars colliding into him, stalling at the start. He’d have higher finishes under true ability. 
Bullying drivers off-track also isn’t my favourite method of overtaking but it is effective and it used to be the only way of really making a move stick. DRS has taken the magic out of that artform but I think it’s still valid, although I concede he does go too far sometimes.   I think personal opinions on drivers always cloud opinions subconsciously but you can generally tell when you’re talking to someone sensible and I don’t worry about that with you. You get some people who say “Crashtappen sucks, Hamilton the GOAT” or “Lulu cry more, Max the best” and you instantly know it’s a waste of time.  It’s nice to just be able to debate in a civilised and substantiated manner. 
I wholeheartedly agree that there is perhaps an excessive chasm between the top drivers, the decent drivers and the bottom drivers in the game.  I do full races and Lewis and Max finish waaay ahead (which I guess isn’t unreasonable) but Russell both qualifies and finishes down around 17th. We’ll see next season in the Merc but I don’t think there’s a mountain between Lewis and George.  I’m a non-passionate Leclerc fan but even I admit he shouldn’t be finishing 30-40 seconds a race ahead of Sainz every time.  I also have a phenomenon called the Stroll train.  Lance falls behind whomever he’s following and  drops the DRS. However, drivers struggle to overtake him and when they finally do, they literally zoom off into the distance one at a time.  There needs to be either a rebalance of the ratings, or an overhaul to a system more fit-for-purpose. 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

I agree that Albon shows more than Latifi. I think it’ll be close at the start of the season but he’ll slowly edge away. I think they’re a well-matched team though.   I didn’t rate him that highly even in feeder series and I thought Kvyat would be a better bet at Red Bull so I can’t say I was too disappointed to see Albon fail as I was getting pelters after his first half-season when I said he’d stumble and he seemed relatively decent 😂

It is true that different drivers do better in different formulae. Jan Magnussen and Giorgio Pantano come to mind.   Both seen as true prodigies but floundered in F1. 
I get that you’re using statistics to judge the likes of Lundgaard/Armstrong but I just feel that such black and white analysis isn’t reflective of whether someone is good or not.  Obviously context is always helpful but he had a lot of bad luck. The Silverstone wheel incident, cars colliding into him, stalling at the start. He’d have higher finishes under true ability. 
Bullying drivers off-track also isn’t my favourite method of overtaking but it is effective and it used to be the only way of really making a move stick. DRS has taken the magic out of that artform but I think it’s still valid, although I concede he does go too far sometimes.   I think personal opinions on drivers always cloud opinions subconsciously but you can generally tell when you’re talking to someone sensible and I don’t worry about that with you. You get some people who say “Crashtappen sucks, Hamilton the GOAT” or “Lulu cry more, Max the best” and you instantly know it’s a waste of time.  It’s nice to just be able to debate in a civilised and substantiated manner. 
I wholeheartedly agree that there is perhaps an excessive chasm between the top drivers, the decent drivers and the bottom drivers in the game.  I do full races and Lewis and Max finish waaay ahead (which I guess isn’t unreasonable) but Russell both qualifies and finishes down around 17th. We’ll see next season in the Merc but I don’t think there’s a mountain between Lewis and George.  I’m a non-passionate Leclerc fan but even I admit he shouldn’t be finishing 30-40 seconds a race ahead of Sainz every time.  I also have a phenomenon called the Stroll train.  Lance falls behind whomever he’s following and  drops the DRS. However, drivers struggle to overtake him and when they finally do, they literally zoom off into the distance one at a time.  There needs to be either a rebalance of the ratings, or an overhaul to a system more fit-for-purpose. 

Really depends on how next years cars will end up, maybe the cars will suit Latifi for whatever reason and Hamilton will get stomped by Russel.. I doubt it will happen but in theory everything is possible with such extreme changes to the cars, so lets see how it ends up.

Yes it cant be based fully on stats but the only rating that could be truly different would be the race pace for Lundgaard and Armstrong as they didnt have major incidents in qualifying. They might be 2 points better in each but to get a rating you cant let your believe in those drivers blind you, if we had consistency as a stat it would be easier, they would get higher pace but lower consistency as that was especially Lundgaards weak spot in qualifying. Anyway, they didnt perform better than the likes of Lawson, i think that is clear and anywhere between their stats and Lundgaards/Armstrongs stats in my table would be fine for me.

Bullying off the track was only ok because there were barely any rules, the greatest overtakes are when it doesnt happen, look at Alonso vs. Russel in Austria, amazing battle and both left each other the space, thats how you are supposed to overtake in my opinion and maybe the new regulations will make it easier but IMO a less efficient DRS will always be needed as slipstream and dirty air go hand in hand, you cant get rid of all dirty air and still have slipstream to get close, but lets see what next year brings 🙂

The likes of Hamilton and Verstappen should finish way ahead because of their car, not because of their personal skill, low focus and consistency for Bottas and Perez. Bottas is genuinely close to Hamilton in Qualifying but slower in the races (like 89 Qpace and 84 Rpace) and for Perez when he performs good its vice versa (like 84 Qpace and 88 Rpace) but especially for Perez very low Focus and consistency. But e.g. in Abu Dhabi without the strategy to hold up Hamilton Perez was within 0.1-0.2s of Verstappens laptimes and Brazil only 0.1s off in quali, he has good pace but was just awfully inconsistent in 2021, should the next RB car be easier to get into his window he might even give Verstappen a little challenge. But to have them (Verstappen/Hamilton) like 0.5s faster each lap and each race would be too much compared to the days when Perez/Bottas were performing good.

Sainz isnt far off of Leclercs skill, Leclerc just has the bigger potential for great races as of yet but lets see how Sainz deals with it next season, maybe it will even suit Leclerc more..

I get the feeling that the AI doesnt try as hard to stay close/overtake at all costs vs AI as it does vs the player. Pretty sure the coding could be done different so that they also go around the outside with a late braking move when they are behind a way slower car or something like that. I saw it in my F2 testings that they just follow around in 0.6-0.9s gaps although the Schumacher AI is like 0.4-0.6s faster than the ones he sticks behind. So yeah definitely needs an overhaul to how the AI works behind other AI.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Meza994 said:

Really depends on how next years cars will end up, maybe the cars will suit Latifi for whatever reason and Hamilton will get stomped by Russel.. I doubt it will happen but in theory everything is possible with such extreme changes to the cars, so lets see how it ends up.

Yes it cant be based fully on stats but the only rating that could be truly different would be the race pace for Lundgaard and Armstrong as they didnt have major incidents in qualifying. They might be 2 points better in each but to get a rating you cant let your believe in those drivers blind you, if we had consistency as a stat it would be easier, they would get higher pace but lower consistency as that was especially Lundgaards weak spot in qualifying. Anyway, they didnt perform better than the likes of Lawson, i think that is clear and anywhere between their stats and Lundgaards/Armstrongs stats in my table would be fine for me.

Bullying off the track was only ok because there were barely any rules, the greatest overtakes are when it doesnt happen, look at Alonso vs. Russel in Austria, amazing battle and both left each other the space, thats how you are supposed to overtake in my opinion and maybe the new regulations will make it easier but IMO a less efficient DRS will always be needed as slipstream and dirty air go hand in hand, you cant get rid of all dirty air and still have slipstream to get close, but lets see what next year brings 🙂

The likes of Hamilton and Verstappen should finish way ahead because of their car, not because of their personal skill, low focus and consistency for Bottas and Perez. Bottas is genuinely close to Hamilton in Qualifying but slower in the races (like 89 Qpace and 84 Rpace) and for Perez when he performs good its vice versa (like 84 Qpace and 88 Rpace) but especially for Perez very low Focus and consistency. But e.g. in Abu Dhabi without the strategy to hold up Hamilton Perez was within 0.1-0.2s of Verstappens laptimes and Brazil only 0.1s off in quali, he has good pace but was just awfully inconsistent in 2021, should the next RB car be easier to get into his window he might even give Verstappen a little challenge. But to have them (Verstappen/Hamilton) like 0.5s faster each lap and each race would be too much compared to the days when Perez/Bottas were performing good.

Sainz isnt far off of Leclercs skill, Leclerc just has the bigger potential for great races as of yet but lets see how Sainz deals with it next season, maybe it will even suit Leclerc more..

I get the feeling that the AI doesnt try as hard to stay close/overtake at all costs vs AI as it does vs the player. Pretty sure the coding could be done different so that they also go around the outside with a late braking move when they are behind a way slower car or something like that. I saw it in my F2 testings that they just follow around in 0.6-0.9s gaps although the Schumacher AI is like 0.4-0.6s faster than the ones he sticks behind. So yeah definitely needs an overhaul to how the AI works behind other AI.

Next year is such an unknown!   I genuinely can't wait for pre-season testing to come around (although i'm sure they'll all be sandbagging a little anyway). It's possible that they won't be as sandbaggy as normal as they'll want to test the cars properly but I expect the wind-tunnel work and other testing means they have a good idea how it will behave.  Albon and Latifi will have the disadvantage of the fact Nissany will probably end up doing a testing day or two for some reason only known to the finance department...   it's also important not to judge after just a few races as everyone adapts to regulation changes at different speeds, both drivers and teams. 

I don't argue at all that further metrics to judge the drivers are required. A consistency stat would be excellent as some drivers have weekends where they're off it and some where they're really on it and then probably an average baseline for their ability.   It would stop alot of "well this driver did this once and that shows they can it" and someone saying "they also did this though and that's not as good".  Although the more metrics they use, the more numbers for people to disagree with!

I rememeber watching Arnoux vs Villeneuve from the 80s and it was corner after corner, lap after lap and also Kubica/Massa (I think) when they were wheel-to-wheel for a whole final lap.  That's how I think exciting racing should be, not just a whiz-by on the DRS and off-you-go.  Lunging isn't my favourite and I would like fair and clean racing but I think when someone makes it work for them then it's not really a criticism of their skill.

I was very harsh on Perez in the middle part of the season but I must admit he was there when it mattered at the end of the season with some better drives.  I do think his qualifying lets him down and leaves him too much to do sometimes and he's already out of the race running by the time he's cleared them. He won't be able to do that with Russell lurking around so he's going to have to do better next year.  (Although Red Bull and Merc might not be competitive!)  <-- they probably will be. 

I'll admit I was impressed by Sainz. I'd never doubted he was a fairly handy racer but he was extra impressive over the last two years. He still makes mistakes but he's not as frequent as Charles.  Charles is unbelievably quick but he is guilty of pushing too much and Sainz seems to understand how to still use a car that isn't working well where Charles seems a little lost when the car isn't working as expected.   I think Ferrari have the best matched driver line-up and if the car is good then they'll both do well. 

Cannot argue with the point about AI on AI racing.  I guess it's cautious so they don't all just wipe each other out and hand races to the player. I know they work on the AI every year so I think it's something that'll eventually get resolved.  I just think the big changes will be coming with next gen. You know, when we go past the crossover period and they focus on next-gen more and that's when the AI will start behaving more along the lines of what people expect. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

Next year is such an unknown!   I genuinely can't wait for pre-season testing to come around (although i'm sure they'll all be sandbagging a little anyway). It's possible that they won't be as sandbaggy as normal as they'll want to test the cars properly but I expect the wind-tunnel work and other testing means they have a good idea how it will behave.  Albon and Latifi will have the disadvantage of the fact Nissany will probably end up doing a testing day or two for some reason only known to the finance department...   it's also important not to judge after just a few races as everyone adapts to regulation changes at different speeds, both drivers and teams. 

I don't argue at all that further metrics to judge the drivers are required. A consistency stat would be excellent as some drivers have weekends where they're off it and some where they're really on it and then probably an average baseline for their ability.   It would stop alot of "well this driver did this once and that shows they can it" and someone saying "they also did this though and that's not as good".  Although the more metrics they use, the more numbers for people to disagree with!

I rememeber watching Arnoux vs Villeneuve from the 80s and it was corner after corner, lap after lap and also Kubica/Massa (I think) when they were wheel-to-wheel for a whole final lap.  That's how I think exciting racing should be, not just a whiz-by on the DRS and off-you-go.  Lunging isn't my favourite and I would like fair and clean racing but I think when someone makes it work for them then it's not really a criticism of their skill.

I was very harsh on Perez in the middle part of the season but I must admit he was there when it mattered at the end of the season with some better drives.  I do think his qualifying lets him down and leaves him too much to do sometimes and he's already out of the race running by the time he's cleared them. He won't be able to do that with Russell lurking around so he's going to have to do better next year.  (Although Red Bull and Merc might not be competitive!)  <-- they probably will be. 

I'll admit I was impressed by Sainz. I'd never doubted he was a fairly handy racer but he was extra impressive over the last two years. He still makes mistakes but he's not as frequent as Charles.  Charles is unbelievably quick but he is guilty of pushing too much and Sainz seems to understand how to still use a car that isn't working well where Charles seems a little lost when the car isn't working as expected.   I think Ferrari have the best matched driver line-up and if the car is good then they'll both do well. 

Cannot argue with the point about AI on AI racing.  I guess it's cautious so they don't all just wipe each other out and hand races to the player. I know they work on the AI every year so I think it's something that'll eventually get resolved.  I just think the big changes will be coming with next gen. You know, when we go past the crossover period and they focus on next-gen more and that's when the AI will start behaving more along the lines of what people expect. 

  Yea totally agree, cant say whos better based one a few races, not even a single season is a total definition of skill but its an indicator😄

True but people will always disagree with anything that doesnt make their driver the best.. Should just be done with some true logic behind it and not the way it is now and if the stats lead to results like in real life it would shut up quite a few people that complain haha

Arnoux vs Villeneuve however was clean except for 1 corner i believe, Massa vs Kubica was just corner cutting and forcing off the track non stop, they simply only used the actual track as a guideline and made up their own track.. If the kept it to a absolute minimum it would rival Arnoux vs Villeneuve but they didnt haha my problem with the lunging as a genuine overtaking method is that depending on the stewards the lunging driver gets protected because "he was in front at the apex" and thats a penalty free forcing off the track.. But i dont expect them to clear up any rules regarding the racing.. sadly

Yeah but as we agree next years car will be completely different so Perez might have less problems in qualifying but we will see

Leclerc isnt even that much quicker than Sainz.. Out of the last 6 races Sainz was 3 time genuinely quicker, once Leclerc had his broken Chassis, once Sainz had his own problems but was quicker than Leclerc in Q1 (Jeddah) and once they were equal. Soo yeah i still give Leclerc the egde regarding pace but either he was inconsistent himself or Sainz is barely 2 points in pace behind. Ricciardo+Norris might rival Ferraris pairing but for some reason Ricciardo didnt gel with McLaren this year, but they have both great potential, if both like next years McLaren they could rival Sainz/Leclerc.

Of course but you could just make them be a bit closer, its just go step by step to get them to be closer for DRS overtakes and its all working fine, no need to programm the AI to stay completely up the rear like Hamilton did in Jeddah (sorry)😂 but staying within 0.4-0.7s should be possible for the AI. Lets hope you are right, next gen is gonna come in 2022 or 2023 so hopefully AI will be better and even improve the AI on AI just enough so that other means will be more effective (tyre strategy and car performance variety systems😜)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we all just agree that Mario Andretti is the best general motorsport driver of all time?

 

Yes, I just ignited that debate.

 

Seriously though, that's a debate I'd love to have with reasonable people sometime...IMHO there's very few drivers even worth being in that discussion: Mario Andretti, Graham Hill, Michael Schumacher (although big knock against him is he didn't do much outside F1, but can't REALLY blame him for that?), Alonso, Sebastian Loeb (sp? and only in rally, again, nothing against him), and AJ Foyt (was it a licensing issue or his choice that no one gave him an F1 chance outside of 3 races at Indy)

 

Also, this is why I want Alonso to skip the Monaco GP every year until he manages to win the Indy 500. Only one person ever has done the racing triple crown, and I'm sick of hearing about it so often, if a second person would do it, maybe they'd chill out in commentary sometimes.

 

Edit: I should've pointed out the obvious: the reason AJ Foyt is in the argument of greatest ever (and Andretti to a lesser extent) is they managed to make their careers last essentially forever. Foyt started every Indianapolis 500 from 1958 until '92? I think it was, maybe '93? which is just insane. Not as a horrible backmarker either, genuinely didn't do super poorly even in the 90's.

 

Also: I tend to focus / know a lot about the Indianapolis 500 stats in particular because I was born and raised just outside Indianapolis, Indiana. You grow up there, you learn a lot. I.e. I know most of the drivers from memory who did the insane feat of running the Indianapolis 500 and the Coca-Cola 600 in the same day. 1100 MILES of racing in one day...and travel from Indianapolis to Charlotte, North Carolina is still about 45 minutes to an hour by private jet. Imagine running the Indy 500 in the afternoon, jumping on a plane, and running an even longer race in honestly worse / more boring cars (NASCAR).

 

Partially why I'd love a single racing game to get all the licenses to be able to use one physics / game engine to go through all the different series, as I think it'd be fun to "create a driver" and try to be the best in all of motorsport ever.

Edited by CgSquall
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, CgSquall said:

Can we all just agree that Mario Andretti is the best general motorsport driver of all time?

 

Yes, I just ignited that debate.

 

Seriously though, that's a debate I'd love to have with reasonable people sometime...IMHO there's very few drivers even worth being in that discussion: Mario Andretti, Graham Hill, Michael Schumacher (although big knock against him is he didn't do much outside F1, but can't REALLY blame him for that?), Alonso, Sebastian Loeb (sp? and only in rally, again, nothing against him), and AJ Foyt (was it a licensing issue or his choice that no one gave him an F1 chance outside of 3 races at Indy)

 

Also, this is why I want Alonso to skip the Monaco GP every year until he manages to win the Indy 500. Only one person ever has done the racing triple crown, and I'm sick of hearing about it so often, if a second person would do it, maybe they'd chill out in commentary sometimes.

 

Edit: I should've pointed out the obvious: the reason AJ Foyt is in the argument of greatest ever (and Andretti to a lesser extent) is they managed to make their careers last essentially forever. Foyt started every Indianapolis 500 from 1958 until '92? I think it was, maybe '93? which is just insane. Not as a horrible backmarker either, genuinely didn't do super poorly even in the 90's.

 

Also: I tend to focus / know a lot about the Indianapolis 500 stats in particular because I was born and raised just outside Indianapolis, Indiana. You grow up there, you learn a lot. I.e. I know most of the drivers from memory who did the insane feat of running the Indianapolis 500 and the Coca-Cola 600 in the same day. 1100 MILES of racing in one day...and travel from Indianapolis to Charlotte, North Carolina is still about 45 minutes to an hour by private jet. Imagine running the Indy 500 in the afternoon, jumping on a plane, and running an even longer race in honestly worse / more boring cars (NASCAR).

 

Partially why I'd love a single racing game to get all the licenses to be able to use one physics / game engine to go through all the different series, as I think it'd be fun to "create a driver" and try to be the best in all of motorsport ever.

Dont get me wrong but this is about a mechanic of the game, not about discussing the best driver which is nothing that can be said, cars make drivers, eras make drivers and regulations make drivers.

Cant even be said who is the best driver of all time in F1 and never ever in all motorsport. If you want to discuss this non the less id ask you to do so in a different thread 🙂

Link to post
Share on other sites

Realistically, until they remove or rework the personnel upgrades the driver stats are fairly pointless anyway. But I agree that some are far too spread out resulting in being way too slow (Ocon is the worst offender here)

Aside from Mazepin and probably Latifi, all the drivers pace stat should be between 88-100. Ocon is regularly 0.4 off Alonso in qualifying and around 30s behind at the end of a race which isnt very accurate. You only have to imagine if the game puts two drivers as teammates would the stats be accurate. Example: Ricciardo returns to Red Bull as Max's teammate. Danny has had a poor season but we know when he was teammates with Max they were close. If they are teammates for season two, its Max at 98 pace vs Ricciardo at 87 (think he increases by 2?). That's obviously not accurate. 

The best way they can really fix driver stats is to

1. Remove the personnel boosts (but keep team activity and event boosts).

2. Make the Focus stat have a greater effect and not have everyone drop at the same rate making it redundant.

3. Allow us to change the stats when we like. Want Stroll to have a stronger performance at a race? Buff his pace for a race.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Liaveil said:

Realistically, until they remove or rework the personnel upgrades the driver stats are fairly pointless anyway. But I agree that some are far too spread out resulting in being way too slow (Ocon is the worst offender here)

Aside from Mazepin and probably Latifi, all the drivers pace stat should be between 88-100. Ocon is regularly 0.4 off Alonso in qualifying and around 30s behind at the end of a race which isnt very accurate. You only have to imagine if the game puts two drivers as teammates would the stats be accurate. Example: Ricciardo returns to Red Bull as Max's teammate. Danny has had a poor season but we know when he was teammates with Max they were close. If they are teammates for season two, its Max at 98 pace vs Ricciardo at 87 (think he increases by 2?). That's obviously not accurate. 

The best way they can really fix driver stats is to

1. Remove the personnel boosts (but keep team activity and event boosts).

2. Make the Focus stat have a greater effect and not have everyone drop at the same rate making it redundant.

3. Allow us to change the stats when we like. Want Stroll to have a stronger performance at a race? Buff his pace for a race.

1. and 2. absolutely and ideally a consistency stat too! Problem is with your Ricciardo comparison that the stats are mostly based on the previous year so Ricciardos stats would be worse than Verstappens. But with consistency it could be better base stats and low consistency and consistency could also interact with focus, increase with seasons at a team.

3. is a problem because it might get problems if its possible to make certain drivers super bad, so the Hamilton haters would make him worse than Mazepin and stuff.. They wouldnt like that but it would definitely solve all the discussions about the right ratings haha

Link to post
Share on other sites

A consistency stat would be good. Another alternative would be to give drivers two separate stats for each category. I'll use pace as an example. Hamilton and Verstappen are the most consistent drivers so they could have a pace stat like 95-98. So each weekend theyll perform at any number between those stats. A less consistent driver like Tsunoda could have 79-89. So a bigger variety. Focus could be then reworked so low focus would mean more likely to perform at the lower stat while high focus would be more likely to perform at the highest. The stats could then update over time like they do now but maybe only the lower stat increases so their consistency improves.

 

In regards to editing stats ourselves, I dont think it's an issue if someone decides to give Hamilton or Verstappen 50 pace since it would only affect their game. Only thing that should be a thing is disabling achievements if stats are changed manually.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...