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Future for DiRT Rally

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Ultimately, I think it boils down to how much content would be released by a developer for any game if the plan was to implement a subscription-based play time, for if it's worth the monthly fee. 

Personally, I like the way EA DICE do things with Battlefield, and give players the chance to buy the season pass, which once all content has been released, is mega value for money. They tend to give players a good plan of what's to come as well, so you have a good idea of what you can expect when you buy the season pass. 

If Codies drew up a solid plan for DLC over the next year or two of DiRT Rally and made it all available via a Season Pass (which would give them more money to play with to deliver said DLC), I would be well up for that. It's better than paying for a subscription, and so long as we get to see a sort of blueprint for what the devs plan on doing, you know what your money is going towards helping and eventually playing. 

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Ultimately, I think it boils down to how much content would be released by a developer for any game if the plan was to implement a subscription-based play time, for if it's worth the monthly fee. 

Personally, I like the way EA DICE do things with Battlefield, and give players the chance to buy the season pass, which once all content has been released, is mega value for money. They tend to give players a good plan of what's to come as well, so you have a good idea of what you can expect when you buy the season pass. 

If Codies drew up a solid plan for DLC over the next year or two of DiRT Rally and made it all available via a Season Pass (which would give them more money to play with to deliver said DLC), I would be well up for that. It's better than paying for a subscription, and so long as we get to see a sort of blueprint for what the devs plan on doing, you know what your money is going towards helping and eventually playing. 
There's only so much content that can be made though before having to consider doing something completely different. The point of having a subscription for online services is that the title can continue indefinitely which has multiple positive side effects. You don't have to pay the subscription, can do AI champioinships and the game without any online aspects is still worth a decent price tag so no one could complain about paying a couple of quid a month for online services, rally is likely not as demanding on servers as road racing so I doubt it will cost any as much as what iRacing has to pay. I'm not familiar with racenet atm, any paid for online service needs a decent anti cheat system and plenty of stats, maybe even an API for the community to build plugins.

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i hpoe dirt rally 2  will be focused only on rally (more stages & cars) and not  rallycross and pikes peak

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teknoid85 said:
i hpoe dirt rally 2  will be focused only on rally (more stages & cars) and not  rallycross and pikes peak
I hope the next DiRT game just adds everything. Brings in more customers. I like Hillclimb, and some people only like other specific areas, and if it's not included, then it again just limits itself in how many people buy in. I won't buy iRacing because it doesn't have anything interesting to me.

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RichA15 said:
Ultimately, I think it boils down to how much content would be released by a developer for any game if the plan was to implement a subscription-based play time, for if it's worth the monthly fee. 

Personally, I like the way EA DICE do things with Battlefield, and give players the chance to buy the season pass, which once all content has been released, is mega value for money. They tend to give players a good plan of what's to come as well, so you have a good idea of what you can expect when you buy the season pass. 

If Codies drew up a solid plan for DLC over the next year or two of DiRT Rally and made it all available via a Season Pass (which would give them more money to play with to deliver said DLC), I would be well up for that. It's better than paying for a subscription, and so long as we get to see a sort of blueprint for what the devs plan on doing, you know what your money is going towards helping and eventually playing. 
There's only so much content that can be made though before having to consider doing something completely different. The point of having a subscription for online services is that the title can continue indefinitely which has multiple positive side effects. You don't have to pay the subscription, can do AI champioinships and the game without any online aspects is still worth a decent price tag so no one could complain about paying a couple of quid a month for online services, rally is likely not as demanding on servers as road racing so I doubt it will cost any as much as what iRacing has to pay. I'm not familiar with racenet atm, any paid for online service needs a decent anti cheat system and plenty of stats, maybe even an API for the community to build plugins.
Well everyone used to bitch about Xbox Live being a paid service, so making online a subscription base is stupid. Just make private servers. By the way, there's still people online playing BFBC to BF3, even a few BF2 servers. A subscription based model actually has almost no bonus points. In order to do big changes they need a new title.

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Rallycross will surely be in the next game now that they have aquired the license. That's fine by me, if they expand the online features RX will be awesome in leagues. Online replays, full event structure etc.

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JZStudios said:
RichA15 said:
Ultimately, I think it boils down to how much content would be released by a developer for any game if the plan was to implement a subscription-based play time, for if it's worth the monthly fee. 

Personally, I like the way EA DICE do things with Battlefield, and give players the chance to buy the season pass, which once all content has been released, is mega value for money. They tend to give players a good plan of what's to come as well, so you have a good idea of what you can expect when you buy the season pass. 

If Codies drew up a solid plan for DLC over the next year or two of DiRT Rally and made it all available via a Season Pass (which would give them more money to play with to deliver said DLC), I would be well up for that. It's better than paying for a subscription, and so long as we get to see a sort of blueprint for what the devs plan on doing, you know what your money is going towards helping and eventually playing. 
There's only so much content that can be made though before having to consider doing something completely different. The point of having a subscription for online services is that the title can continue indefinitely which has multiple positive side effects. You don't have to pay the subscription, can do AI champioinships and the game without any online aspects is still worth a decent price tag so no one could complain about paying a couple of quid a month for online services, rally is likely not as demanding on servers as road racing so I doubt it will cost any as much as what iRacing has to pay. I'm not familiar with racenet atm, any paid for online service needs a decent anti cheat system and plenty of stats, maybe even an API for the community to build plugins.
Well everyone used to bitch about Xbox Live being a paid service, so making online a subscription base is stupid. Just make private servers. By the way, there's still people online playing BFBC to BF3, even a few BF2 servers. A subscription based model actually has almost no bonus points. In order to do big changes they need a new title.
You completely failed to see the point. No bonus points? What about playing older content on new engines, what about not having to relearn new games, what about building a stronger community? You're ingorant, and as far as I can sse, the only one making stupid posts. What I've suggested is perfectly valid for this type of game, do you think Star Citizen 2 is going to be released in 2 years from now? No, it will continue to be developed indefinitely (20 years or more) which is something I personally am willing to invest  in. If I see that the devs are only interested in making a one hit wonder and then pissing off to some island to get drunk, sod that and sod them.

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teknoid85 said:

i hope dirt rally 2  will be focused only on rally (more stages & cars) and not  rallycross and pikes peak
+1
snip...

RichA15 said:

You're ingorant, and as far as I can sse, the only one making stupid posts.
No need to throw personal insults at fellow members, just because they don't agree with what you're suggesting.

--------------------------------------------


About the subscription... a big NO from me.

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As a former iRacing subscriber, I am having a hard time envisioning what type of online play they would have to add to justify using a subscription model like that.

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RichA15 said:
JZStudios said:
Well everyone used to bitch about Xbox Live being a paid service, so making online a subscription base is stupid. Just make private servers. By the way, there's still people online playing BFBC to BF3, even a few BF2 servers. A subscription based model actually has almost no bonus points. In order to do big changes they need a new title.
You completely failed to see the point. No bonus points? What about playing older content on new engines, what about not having to relearn new games, what about building a stronger community? You're ingorant, and as far as I can sse, the only one making stupid posts. What I've suggested is perfectly valid for this type of game, do you think Star Citizen 2 is going to be released in 2 years from now? No, it will continue to be developed indefinitely (20 years or more) which is something I personally am willing to invest  in. If I see that the devs are only interested in making a one hit wonder and then pissing off to some island to get drunk, sod that and sod them.
You can easily add or improve old content into new games and engines. Yet again, bring up Forza. They redid EVERYTHING for Forza 5, and 2 years later they release Forza 6 doing WAY more than what could've happened if they did subscription based. It has almost as much content as 4, a game that used and expanded upon models from 2 and 3.. It's cheaper for the consumer, and the company makes more money. Let's also just point out that it's not like the entirety of a damn RACING game is going to change so much that you have to "relearn" it. In any case, if that's how you feel, then they should stop making any improvements in the engine ever, and just keep it exactly the same forever, and force people to keep paying for a game that never changes. No. Creating a new and improved game every few years works, look at the other CM racing titles. Let's also look at iRacing's absolutely tiny consumer base, and compare it to CM's even with it's extremely limited titles, F1, DR, hell, even the DiRT series. Let's also look at all the improvement's those games got over every title and compare it to iRacing's entire existence. Subscription based and that mentality SEVERELY limit's the amount of control, ingenuity, progression, and forward moving processes. Why? Because it's free fucking income, that they no longer have to spend as much time on. As long as they keep the service up, they keep making money, they might occasionally add a new car or track, and it might be fantastic, but 1 addition every few months to a year is absolute crap. iRacing should be way bigger, have more content, a larger fanbase, and updated engine by now. Especially with that ridiculous pricing option. The tracks may be spectacular, but I'm not buying into it.

On a side note, I'll agree with Paulie and say let's not make it personal. I don't want to get anyone in trouble, because it will happen.

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Subscription will divide the game a lot, there are a lot of people who cant be able to pay 9bucks per month, and there are a lot of young people who does not work and study that needs to ask their parents for buying the game and buying a suscription? Please No

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enamel said:
As a former iRacing subscriber, I am having a hard time envisioning what type of online play they would have to add to justify using a subscription model like that.
Rallycross could be huge, everyone on iRacing is always asking about dirt racing. I've never taken an interest in it before but after my first online race I saw the appeal of it, it's a blast. If it was possible to spectate and use overlays via and api, could do broadcasts, then it could take off. Maybe the rally side of things is more suited to leagues, as long as admins can access all data easily, I can see many leagues appearing on their own domain. So to some extent I agree with you, in that case we'd only pay for new content which others have agreed with already. The point is, it's a piece of cake to download a 30gb zip file now, so updating an engine is a breeze, there's no need to make DiRT Rally 2/3/4/5. I find the thought of developing a huge library of content far more appealing, that's the main attraction of it for me as well as the reassurance that the game isn't going to fail/die. DiRT Rally has evolved from a few DiRT titles (none of which I bought as I'm only interested in sims), I can tell already that DiRT Rally is a polished game and has come from the development of other titles. Now that it's dipping it's toes in the simulation genre, I'm not keen on seeing it dwindle away to nothing like so many other racing simulators have done.

Back to iRacing, what other racing game has over 100 races every day with 500+ drivers in those races? You can jump in GT3 race that splits 3 or 4 times with 20 drivers in each split almost every night, where else can you do that? Everyone knows that iRacing is going to be around for a long time and there is some comfort in that, can say the same for Star Citizen and Elite, how they are doing it is the right way to do a simulation. If it's a simcade or arcade or fps, series are the way to go, otherwise you need a platform on which to build a community so that eventually a certain momentum builds and takes on a life of it's own.

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RichA15 said:
Rallycross could be huge, everyone on iRacing is always asking about dirt racing. I've never taken an interest in it before but after my first online race I saw the appeal of it, it's a blast. If it was possible to spectate and use overlays via and api, could do broadcasts, then it could take off.
As a form of motorsports Rallycross is something of a niche, the sort of thing you might see on Motors TV but not mainstream like WRC, Touring Cars, GP2 etc. It is pretty hard to imagine developing a spectator base on a virtual variant to be honest.

With a subscription based managed online service comes high expectations for driver management. Check out the daily "protest system sucks" thread :) It is a high overhead and not something to take lightly. Contact in real world rallycross seems more tolerated than most other forms of racing so I would be inclined to leave it to leagues to set their own rules rather than try to manage a global competition. I think it could be a world of pain for little return in terms of people prepared to subscribe.

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RichA15 said:
Rallycross could be huge, everyone on iRacing is always asking about dirt racing. I've never taken an interest in it before but after my first online race I saw the appeal of it, it's a blast. If it was possible to spectate and use overlays via and api, could do broadcasts, then it could take off.
As a form of motorsports Rallycross is something of a niche, the sort of thing you might see on Motors TV but not mainstream like WRC, Touring Cars, GP2 etc. It is pretty hard to imagine developing a spectator base on a virtual variant to be honest.

With a subscription based managed online service comes high expectations for driver management. Check out the daily "protest system sucks" thread :) It is a high overhead and not something to take lightly. Contact in real world rallycross seems more tolerated than most other forms of racing so I would be inclined to leave it to leagues to set their own rules rather than try to manage a global competition. I think it could be a world of pain for little return in terms of people prepared to subscribe.
You could be right. So how else can Codies make money apart from paid content?

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RichA15 said:
You could be right. So how else can Codies make money apart from paid content?
I think the CMR, DIRT series lends itself to succeeding as primarily a single player sim with the online aspect an additional element, in which case a conventional release of new versions maybe with DLC in between seems the likely approach.

I appreciate what you are saying, how do we as enthusiasts help support its ongoing development? I guess by stumping up for early access we certainly help cash flow, short of buying multiple copies for those that can afford to then probably some marketing within the sim communities is all we can do.

Perhaps the other thing maybe to appreciate to succeed Codemasters probably need to sell this to a much wider audience than the hardcore and recognise that some concessions to more casual players is probably necessary, appealing to a wide range of sim racers.

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Not so much about ongoing development, more about keeping the community together and building a library of content. Maybe they could make 20 more stages and cars and release DiRT Rally 2, but none of them will be in the first version and there won't likely be much difference in terms of the graphics engine, they would essentially be the same game so might as well be kept in the same game. 10 years ago this type of approach was not possible, but now that it is, it's worth considering as there are benefits, a series is such a stoppy starty affair, better to build a continuous momentum towards a super strong title rather than have many mediocre titles imo. There is a gap in the market for a rally title, Codies are on track to filling that gap but if they do a series it won't become a thing in it's own right like iRacing is, a sport in it's own right I guess is what I'm getting at. iRacing is a thing that people do, not a thing that comes and goes like most other games, DiRT Rally could and should be that way too imo if it's going to stand the test of time.

I think paid for content along with continuous support and development of the same title can work. There's only so much content that can be added, but by the time that happens the sim could be so popular that it sells itself. Regarding simcade vs hardcore, do it 100% hardcore and give users options to dial it back, there is no reason to compromise hardcore sim racers and in my experience, simcaders usually turn into hardcores eventually because ultimately, no one wants to be reminded they are playing a game, most want to be immersed in as realistic experience as possible.

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Personally I like the whole new release thing, maybe I am old school :)

Back in the day the Papyrus Indycar, Nascar, GPL releases seemed a much bigger event than iRacing season 3,2015 or whatever we are up to. It seems to work for many other series too.

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RichA15 said:
Not so much about ongoing development, more about keeping the community together and building a library of content. Maybe they could make 20 more stages and cars and release DiRT Rally 2, but none of them will be in the first version and there won't likely be much difference in terms of the graphics engine, they would essentially be the same game so might as well be kept in the same game. 10 years ago this type of approach was not possible, but now that it is, it's worth considering as there are benefits, a series is such a stoppy starty affair, better to build a continuous momentum towards a super strong title rather than have many mediocre titles imo. There is a gap in the market for a rally title, Codies are on track to filling that gap but if they do a series it won't become a thing in it's own right like iRacing is, a sport in it's own right I guess is what I'm getting at. iRacing is a thing that people do, not a thing that comes and goes like most other games, DiRT Rally could and should be that way too imo if it's going to stand the test of time.

I think paid for content along with continuous support and development of the same title can work. There's only so much content that can be added, but by the time that happens the sim could be so popular that it sells itself. Regarding simcade vs hardcore, do it 100% hardcore and give users options to dial it back, there is no reason to compromise hardcore sim racers and in my experience, simcaders usually turn into hardcores eventually because ultimately, no one wants to be reminded they are playing a game, most want to be immersed in as realistic experience as possible.
CM absolutely has to make a new engine, and therefore a new title. The engine they're using now is almost a decade old I believe, and it's seriously starting to limit them. I'd rather they make a new engine with better graphics and more capabilities than continue to limit themselves and have people consistently ask for things they've said aren't possible due to engine limitations.

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Yeah, @KickUp has said the engine is pretty much maxxed out with DiRT Rally as it is, & going forward would require a new engine.  Just think how awesome that next-generation game will be with the mindset the guys currently have.....  

https://youtu.be/msQPHxTUgzI

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Even if Dirt Rally is my overall favourite, if it would be subscription based, I would definitely be out.

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Personally I like the whole new release thing, maybe I am old school :)

Back in the day the Papyrus Indycar, Nascar, GPL releases seemed a much bigger event than iRacing season 3,2015 or whatever we are up to. It seems to work for many other series too.
I remember it being that way with the GP series, each new title was a lot better than the last too due to directx updates. But then I see the ISI series die, GTR series, Simbin die, GP series die, the common theme there is that they are all series. It's such an effort for a dev team to make a new title too, new website, new packaging, new interfaces, there's a lot of time wasted faffing about. If for example they upgraded to DX12, would only need to release it on steam, 60 minutes later the customer is updated and ready to go. imo this current engine is excellent, runs at about 80fps here but it looks more like 150+ due to the subtle motion blur. A few months ago it stuttered badly but now it runs smooth as silk.

You only have to look at the history of sim racing games to see what works and what doesn't, Assetto Corsa and rFactor2 might fail, iRacing is the only surviving sim which seems absurd to me. I see console racing games becoming less popular as racers begin to want more realism (if they're enthused enough to buy a wheel for a console, they will surely eventually look for more realism). DiRT Rally is a perfect example of that trend.

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RichA15 said:
...how else can Codies make money apart from paid content?

TonyRickard said:
...how do we as enthusiasts help support its ongoing development?...

• Microtransactions?
• Pop-up ads on their websites?
• Sponsorships from Mountain Dew & Doritos?
...Among other cringe-worthy nails in the coffin.

I understand that we all want more of a good thing...

...but the question should not be: "How can we help keep CodeMasters in business?"

The question should be: "How can CodeMasters earn more of our business?"

• DiRT 3 was released over 4 years ago, and the engine behind DiRT Rally seems barely up-to-task for current standards.
• DiRT Showdown was glorified DLC sold as a stand-alone game.
• The initial re-release of Colin McRae Rally on PC had to offer refunds because CodeMasters neglected to inform customers that it was but a minimal port of a pared-down mobile game, not a re-make/re-master of the original.
• Grid 2 & Grid AutoSport had significant design & technical issues.
• F1 2014 & F1 2015 were quite disappointing, with widespread negative reviews from players & the gaming media.
• They take months to release even small patches, letting the pool of online players quickly dwindle due to major issues.
• OverLord: Fellowship of Evil was very poorly received for deviating significantly from the core formula that defined the original.
• I have difficulty imagining that side-ventures with smaller/mobile games like F1 Race Stars, Toybox Turbos, Micro Machines, Boom Tanks, & Battle Decks are an immensely profitable use of time & resources.
• Most CodeMasters community interaction seems to be limited to basic press releases & vague dead-end responses along the lines of "soon" and "we don't have the budget or room in our schedule for that."
• They quickly burn through "community managers" who barely interact with customers.
• They can't seem to do anything at all to combat months of spam attacks on their own forum.

...Other than DiRT Rally being fairly well-received so far by rally fans in its early access phase, it's getting difficult to find public evidence of recent successes for CodeMasters. The company had a strong start in its earlier years, but it appears to have fallen behind, gone astray, & lost touch with its customers.

We've given them our money.
We've given them our feedback.
What they do or don't do with it (& the consequence for it) is their deliberate choice.

While I wish they'd stage a huge crowd-pleasing come-back across all fronts soon (I love playing good games), they've given me little cause to reasonably hope for it.


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Successful series in gaming, and number of titles.
Halo, 6 main games, 2 official spin offs, 1 RTS, and 2 well selling HD remakes.
Silent Hill, 8 main games, 7 spin offs, and 1 HD collection.
Grand Theft Auto, 5 main games, 3 spin offs, and a number of DLC which is basically a spin off, totaling 15 games.
Final Fantasy, 15 main games, 8 spin offs, 26 really spin offs? It's complicated.
Assassins Creed, 5 main games, 5 half spins, and apparently 13 spin offs.
Resident Evil, 6 main games, 15 spin offs, 2 remasters.
Call of Duty 4 main games, split into a trio of series after that, totaling 21 games. And I hate every one of them.

There's lot's more successful series out there. I'll also say, iRacing hasn't been around too long (2008) and really doesn't have much competition as far as other games/developers are concerned. If something better than iRacing comes out, then it's fan base will surely drop and switch to whatever is better, whether or not it's subscription based. iRacing is only doing... as well as it is, which isn't actually super high compared to other series because it's only competition was/is from other VERY tiny indie companies that are only halfway finished with their product at best, and the Dev's may just lose interest and stop developing.

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