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Future for DiRT Rally

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JZStudios said:
Successful series in gaming, and number of titles.
Halo, 6 main games, 2 official spin offs, 1 RTS, and 2 well selling HD remakes.
Silent Hill, 8 main games, 7 spin offs, and 1 HD collection.
Grand Theft Auto, 5 main games, 3 spin offs, and a number of DLC which is basically a spin off, totaling 15 games.
Final Fantasy, 15 main games, 8 spin offs, 26 really spin offs? It's complicated.
Assassins Creed, 5 main games, 5 half spins, and apparently 13 spin offs.
Resident Evil, 6 main games, 15 spin offs, 2 remasters.
Call of Duty 4 main games, split into a trio of series after that, totaling 21 games. And I hate every one of them.

There's lot's more successful series out there. I'll also say, iRacing hasn't been around too long (2008) and really doesn't have much competition as far as other games/developers are concerned. If something better than iRacing comes out, then it's fan base will surely drop and switch to whatever is better, whether or not it's subscription based. iRacing is only doing... as well as it is, which isn't actually super high compared to other series because it's only competition was/is from other VERY tiny indie companies that are only halfway finished with their product at best, and the Dev's may just lose interest and stop developing.
These are all games where you can make up content from imagination, a sim is not like that, there is a finite amount of content that can be added and that's why imo most sim racing titles have failed. If for example Simbin approached it like iRacing, there could likely be one giant game with all GTR cars, all GTL cars, all RACE cars.. and better yet, development on those cars and the services and features would continue. But instead all of it is dead and gone.

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RichA15 said:
 If for example Simbin approached it like iRacing, there could likely be one giant game with all GTR cars, all GTL cars, all RACE cars.. and better yet, development on those cars and the services and features would continue. But instead all of it is dead and gone.
Like @RodgerDavies mentioned, SimBin eventually found their way (as Sector 3) with R3E, which is alive and kicking.

I think iRacing is a special case because it's such a hardcore sim focused (entirely?) on hardcore disciplined online racing. Dirt Rally is a niche subject, and it's more challenging than before, but I think Codemasters still want it to be an accessible game. More like Forza/Gran Turismo than iRacing. Plus, as I think others have said, Dirt Rally is mostly played single-player—paying a subscription to play offline isn't attractive.

Chalk me up for DLC like Forza, Assetto Corsa, pCars, etc; or an a la carte platform like R3E.

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RichA15 said:
JZStudios said:
Successful series in gaming, and number of titles.
Halo, 6 main games, 2 official spin offs, 1 RTS, and 2 well selling HD remakes.
Silent Hill, 8 main games, 7 spin offs, and 1 HD collection.
Grand Theft Auto, 5 main games, 3 spin offs, and a number of DLC which is basically a spin off, totaling 15 games.
Final Fantasy, 15 main games, 8 spin offs, 26 really spin offs? It's complicated.
Assassins Creed, 5 main games, 5 half spins, and apparently 13 spin offs.
Resident Evil, 6 main games, 15 spin offs, 2 remasters.
Call of Duty 4 main games, split into a trio of series after that, totaling 21 games. And I hate every one of them.

There's lot's more successful series out there. I'll also say, iRacing hasn't been around too long (2008) and really doesn't have much competition as far as other games/developers are concerned. If something better than iRacing comes out, then it's fan base will surely drop and switch to whatever is better, whether or not it's subscription based. iRacing is only doing... as well as it is, which isn't actually super high compared to other series because it's only competition was/is from other VERY tiny indie companies that are only halfway finished with their product at best, and the Dev's may just lose interest and stop developing.
These are all games where you can make up content from imagination, a sim is not like that, there is a finite amount of content that can be added and that's why imo most sim racing titles have failed. If for example Simbin approached it like iRacing, there could likely be one giant game with all GTR cars, all GTL cars, all RACE cars.. and better yet, development on those cars and the services and features would continue. But instead all of it is dead and gone.
Well, there's also Arma, the Milsim, which is actually quite active. The real problem is again that these sim games tend to come out by little indie companies that get tired of doing it. Microsoft flight sim is another one that was successful until they released that awful Flight game.
Forza and Gran Turismo are both racing ... games... I don't feel like getting into that argument, and they're both using real cars and tracks and both successful. I'd say Forza is better than GT since they now have everything new, whereas GT is still using PS2 era car models, hoover vacuum cleaners for engines, and a rather disappointing graphics engine.

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What does iRacing have for serious opposition? I know of LFS, which was developed by like 3 people, so there goes that.
RFactor, as far as I can tell, is made by Image Space Incorporated, which consists of 2 people, and now they decided (probably) they got bored and want to do something different.
I wouldn't really say PCars, but I'd rather buy PCars over iRacing, which I did. PCars confuses me, because I can't really tell where it sits.
Assetto Corsa, according to Wikipedia (the most reliable source) is about 5-10 employees.
The GTR series was Sector3, which is now doing RaceRoom, which as far as I know is doing moderately well.
iRacing apparently has about 45 full time employees. http://steamcommunity.com/app/266410/discussions/0/611704730326379719/
I really, really, think iRacings rather modest success is due to the number of employees, and actually release date. 2008 is a much better more internet focused time than say LFS releasing in 2003. I also feel like if the guys at LFS came out with a LFS 2 tomorrow, it would be awesome and a lot of people would buy into it.
It's not because a sim title is a series that it fails, it's because it's made by only 3 people that get tired of doing the same thing for years. It happens in any other indie dev category.


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Please don't compare iRacing and its system with Dirt Rally. It makes no sense. Iracing is a true simulation and nothing compares if you really want to play online. Dedicated servers cost a lot but online races are like being on a LAN (well, sort of). Dirt Rally is a great game, needs only a bit more tracks and a more realistic damage model and it becomes perfect. Online subscription based mode could be sold as an option to please everybody.

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only thing that worries me is if they try and focus on rally x too much. its okay for short periods of times but i cant see it doing well as a whole game. its only really a DLC package or part game.

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RichA15 said:
Rallycross could be huge, everyone on iRacing is always asking about dirt racing. I've never taken an interest in it before but after my first online race I saw the appeal of it, it's a blast. If it was possible to spectate and use overlays via and api, could do broadcasts, then it could take off.
As a form of motorsports Rallycross is something of a niche, the sort of thing you might see on Motors TV but not mainstream like WRC, Touring Cars, GP2 etc. It is pretty hard to imagine developing a spectator base on a virtual variant to be honest.
That seems a tad bit out of touch. We're not talking about things like the British Rally Cross Championship any more.
WRX and RB GRC has caused an explosion in popularity since they kicked off with no signs of slowing down.
http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2015/02/world-rallycross-championship-enjoys-audience-increase-2014/
On top of that, Rally Cross is part of the X-Games which also gets it a big boost, especially amongst younger people.
At least in the UK, it seems pretty difficult to claim WRC, Touring Cars or GP2 have anything close to mainstream coverage these days, saying as they are stuck on channels like ITV4 or the BBC's Red Button (which only has limited GP2 coverage. You need Sky Sport F1 for that).

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RichA15 said:
The graphics engine is superb
I think we're playing a different game. DR engine is good, but highly limited and at this point in time it's barely keeping up the level. Give it a year or two and it will simply be completely outdated. If you're looking for a superb engine, look at Unreal Engine 4, or DriveClub engine (they haven't named it, funnily enough).

One of the reasons I don't even want to touch iRacing. Paying a subscription for a game that graphically reeks of PS2 era is an absurd to me. I'll pay a subscription only if the game blows my mind away in EVERY single aspect. And then the subscription still has to be reasonable, which it isn't in iRacing, at all.

Also, to those that are comparing Forza with iRacing. iRacing is aiming at PC simulator enthusiast market, which is a VERY niche market, especially when compared to console market which is BIGGER than PC gaming market... yet. It's not because people are not interested in it, but because to actually enjoy it, you need to spend huge sums of money on racing hardware. For a price of a good steering wheel you can get a PS4 with DriveClub (soon GT Sport) or Xbone with Forza 5 and enjoy it without having to use a steering wheel. However, the market that iRacing is aiming at usually has a lot bigger wallet than your average console player, so there's that as well. But generally speaking, comparing the publishing methods of both games is completely pointless, as both aim at a different market. DiRT Rally seems to aim at something in-between as well, especially with a possible console release.
BrySkye said:
At least in the UK, it seems pretty difficult to claim WRC, Touring Cars or GP2 have anything close to mainstream coverage these days, saying as they are stuck on channels like ITV4 or the BBC's Red Button (which only has limited GP2 coverage. You need Sky Sport F1 for that).
Would I be correct in saying that in UK the most popular nowadays is F1? I personally can't comprehend how anyone would want to watch that, since I find it more boring than watching a paint get dry.

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Would I be correct in saying that in UK the most popular nowadays is F1? I personally can't comprehend how anyone would want to watch that, since I find it more boring than watching a paint get dry.
Pretty much by default since it's the only one to get any coverage on the original 5 main channels.
Even that is only limited to a select few full races live and highlights on free-to-air TV.
If you have to watch all the races live, you have to subscribe to Sky Sports F1.

Motorsports coverage in the UK as a whole is pretty crap. All the money goes to football.

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you can big up rally cross all you want, just cause it grows on tele or people watching it out and about doesnt mean gamers will buy a title soley based on it.

dont get me wrong i enjoy it. but...only for a very short period.also ask how many here sit and play rallyx ? i bet not alot only ow and again.

thing is the dev team has put alot of effort into rallyx. so it gets me thinking that it may just indeed become a bigger part.

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dgeesi0 said:
you can big up rally cross all you want, just cause it grows on tele or people watching it out and about doesnt mean gamers will buy a title soley based on it.

dont get me wrong i enjoy it. but...only for a very short period.also ask how many here sit and play rallyx ? i bet not alot only ow and again.

thing is the dev team has put alot of effort into rallyx. so it gets me thinking that it may just indeed become a bigger part.
I think the rallycross is fun, but yeah, the same tiny track over and over and over again is a bit repetitive.

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dgeesi0 said:
also ask how many here sit and play rallyx ? i bet not alot only ow and again.
Ask yourself this. From how many thousands of people that bought the game, how many are actually contributing to forums? The majority of us here are hardcore players, however we're in the minority of the game population. RX is aimed more at the casual scene, since it's a lot easier to get in and provides insta action, so naturally after the game release you may see a lot people there.
I personally haven't played RX lately, but when I get in and don't get an Error 41 or Disconnection instantly, I play it for quite a long time, definitely not just few races. It depends from a person to person. I know someone who spend over 200 hours in RX, while he treats Rally part as just an addition. This view should be rather common but it will flip the sides, as in someone finds RX as just an addition, some Rally as just an addition.

Generally speaking addition of RX may help the sales enough, so that the hardcore part that enjoys the Rally part, which isn't that easily "monetise-able" , can have that experience going on for more. In other words, RX may bring sales, while Rally brings community. We'll see how it goes after the official release.

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JZStudios said:
dgeesi0 said:
you can big up rally cross all you want, just cause it grows on tele or people watching it out and about doesnt mean gamers will buy a title soley based on it.

dont get me wrong i enjoy it. but...only for a very short period.also ask how many here sit and play rallyx ? i bet not alot only ow and again.

thing is the dev team has put alot of effort into rallyx. so it gets me thinking that it may just indeed become a bigger part.
I think the rallycross is fun, but yeah, the same tiny track over and over and over again is a bit repetitive.
Which is why you want to have the full calendar of 12 tracks and, even better, have it as part of another games package like DiRT Rally rather than Stand Alone.
In these gaming times of more rapid gratification, compatibility with short PvP sessions, and the fact that most people who buy F1 never complete a single season, it might be rather more popular than you think.
This particular forum, a tiny sample size with a disproportionately high percentage of the hardcore, doesn't really reflect these aspects.

There's no proof a pure rally game is going to be a hot seller either. Look at the sales for the WRC series.
WRC 4 got no higher than #21 in the UK multi-format charts.
WRC 5, the first rally game and unopposed on next gen hardware, topped at #10 and was gone from the top 20 the next week.

What matters more is if the game is good or not.
A good RX game could easily sell more than a sub-par Rally game.

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BrySkye said:
RichA15 said:
Rallycross could be huge, everyone on iRacing is always asking about dirt racing. I've never taken an interest in it before but after my first online race I saw the appeal of it, it's a blast. If it was possible to spectate and use overlays via and api, could do broadcasts, then it could take off.
As a form of motorsports Rallycross is something of a niche, the sort of thing you might see on Motors TV but not mainstream like WRC, Touring Cars, GP2 etc. It is pretty hard to imagine developing a spectator base on a virtual variant to be honest.
That seems a tad bit out of touch. We're not talking about things like the British Rally Cross Championship any more.
WRX and RB GRC has caused an explosion in popularity since they kicked off with no signs of slowing down.
http://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2015/02/world-rallycross-championship-enjoys-audience-increase-2014/
On top of that, Rally Cross is part of the X-Games which also gets it a big boost, especially amongst younger people.
At least in the UK, it seems pretty difficult to claim WRC, Touring Cars or GP2 have anything close to mainstream coverage these days, saying as they are stuck on channels like ITV4 or the BBC's Red Button (which only has limited GP2 coverage. You need Sky Sport F1 for that).
The discussion is in the context of growing an E-Sport around Rallycross, with online broadcasts of races and developing an online service. My personal view is the likely numbers of rallycross fans who sign up for a virtual series are a pretty niche group and the numbers who would spectate rather miniscule in the scheme of things especially when the real thing in the UK only gets aired by British Eurosport.

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hmmm me thinks its maybe already planned to come out.i guess we will see.

i personally think it wont work.

its pretty simple really rally is niche section of gaming. rally x is even more niche. forget about it growing whatever percent more know about rally than rally x.

i think what really needs to be done with a rally game for codemasters is just give the full game every one wants with all the trimmings.

people build these games but always miss what many want they go over all the we did this and that but miss what is needed.show me any new game i will tell you within one minute success or fail.

dirt rallys hindrance is no mp in rally.while its a great game , no mp in a mp gaming environment is quite frankly bewildering.pls dont say rallyx is mp its not really its just a bit of what basically should be a full fat product.

so for the future. factor in mp as a high priority.factor in people want all the courses and tracks possible and all the cars. yes its not easy to get the licensing and so on but....if you want the game to sell well and do well you must have all of what people want.


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dgeesi0 said:
dirt rallys hindrance is no mp in rally.while its a great game , no mp in a mp gaming environment is quite frankly bewildering.pls dont say rallyx is mp its not really its just a bit of what basically should be a full fat product.

so for the future. factor in mp as a high priority.factor in people want all the courses and tracks possible and all the cars. yes its not easy to get the licensing and so on but....if you want the game to sell well and do well you must have all of what people want.
I think having online events with staggered starts, virtual service halts where we all meet up and chat and a results ceremony would be awesome, however I wonder just how many of the overall customer base would get involved. I think it would be pretty small but very close knit group. Whether it it makes commercial sense I am reluctantly doubtful.

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BrySkye said:
JZStudios said:
dgeesi0 said:
you can big up rally cross all you want, just cause it grows on tele or people watching it out and about doesnt mean gamers will buy a title soley based on it.

dont get me wrong i enjoy it. but...only for a very short period.also ask how many here sit and play rallyx ? i bet not alot only ow and again.

thing is the dev team has put alot of effort into rallyx. so it gets me thinking that it may just indeed become a bigger part.
I think the rallycross is fun, but yeah, the same tiny track over and over and over again is a bit repetitive.
Which is why you want to have the full calendar of 12 tracks and, even better, have it as part of another games package like DiRT Rally rather than Stand Alone.
In these gaming times of more rapid gratification, compatibility with short PvP sessions, and the fact that most people who buy F1 never complete a single season, it might be rather more popular than you think.
This particular forum, a tiny sample size with a disproportionately high percentage of the hardcore, doesn't really reflect these aspects.

There's no proof a pure rally game is going to be a hot seller either. Look at the sales for the WRC series.
WRC 4 got no higher than #21 in the UK multi-format charts.
WRC 5, the first rally game and unopposed on next gen hardware, topped at #10 and was gone from the top 20 the next week.

What matters more is if the game is good or not.
A good RX game could easily sell more than a sub-par Rally game.
Well, a lot of people aren't really into racing games at all, but pretty much all the people I do know that are would all like to have a dirt based counterpart to the trackracer.

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TonyRickard said:The discussion is in the context of growing an E-Sport around Rallycross, with online broadcasts of races and developing an online service. My personal view is the likely numbers of rallycross fans who sign up for a virtual series are a pretty niche group and the numbers who would spectate rather miniscule in the scheme of things especially when the real thing in the UK only gets aired by British Eurosport.
Yes the main objective is making a new e-sport and avoid being a one hit wonder that dies because the developers need to make more money. In order to do that you need time to develop lots of content and a single platform from which to build. The question is how to maintain a steady income to allow that to happen, it's easy for iRacing because a subscription can be charged for 24/7 online races.

I like the daily, weekly and monthly concept. If that could be developed into a more sophisticated website and I was assured there were no cheats or exploits I'd be interested in that, thousands are already doing it. If that side of it could be developed I'm sure most would have no issues about subscribing to those online services for let's say £5 a year, maybe less. It's not going to cost any where near as much as iRacing, could probably manage it all on a single dedicated server whereas iRacing needs hundreds I guess.

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RichA15 said:
it's easy for iRacing because a subscription can be charged for 24/7 online races.
Personally I think it is far from easy for iRacing. They have a tiny market in the scheme of things with an exclusively online product and therefore need to charge a premium rate unseen in sim racing to make it viable. The 50-60k being banded about has no relation to the active racers on the service. There are only a few series that provide anything like a log in and race service.

Compared with the revenue stream from selling lots of copies of a popular single player title and then doing it all again and again I really don't see the attraction in this case.

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I would gladly pay a small amount of money each month,if that means I could play rally (DirtRally) in an online lobby.I believe those days,where we could get everything in a game for free,is definitely over.I allready pay for my goldmember on PSN,and it´ll come here too,no matter we like it or not.

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yes i would pay for a online service. which meant FULL multiplayer content and cheats and stuff monitored correctly with tables and times correct.
there are a few cheats which i check to see how they are progressing. so it would be nice to see that side wiped out or atleast the times verified.one i checked other day is still working and around 100 is downloads. so its pretty obvious some are setting times using them.

the devs are on most of them but they are busy so some will slip through.

would be nice to have demos saved of times which you could download and replay also. which also shows the sector times ;)then you can see if anything like turbo accelerators , time pauses, instant brakes are used.

currently anyone doing fast times who record a video will mainly just show replays without all the data on.

have the best sector times possible with perfect run and have the players times shown.this is also useful if you trying to get the time also.

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JZStudios said:
Well, a lot of people aren't really into racing games at all, but pretty much all the people I do know that are would all like to have a dirt based counterpart to the trackracer.
A lot of people aren't into racing games at all, yet they still want to derp around in their "rice mobiles" in a Need For Sales game, to whom it is catered to nowadays. Basically everyone likes to derp around in a car once in a while and RX is perfect for that kind of market.

Looking at RX player base as "the part of rally fans that are also interested in RX" is completely off the mark. If it's easy to get in and gives insta action, then it's a perfect way to bring casual crowd into the game. Casuals are not racing game enthusiasts, they don't care about them, even when they call themselves "veterans" of some series.

RX doesn't need much development from what we can see, it's just a new track or/and a car every now and then and most will play it anyway. Some of us like to do a lot of circles around that small track, some of us prefer to do few long runs on a linear stage.

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JZStudios said:
Well, a lot of people aren't really into racing games at all, but pretty much all the people I do know that are would all like to have a dirt based counterpart to the trackracer.
A lot of people aren't into racing games at all, yet they still want to derp around in their "rice mobiles" in a Need For Sales game, to whom it is catered to nowadays. Basically everyone likes to derp around in a car once in a while and RX is perfect for that kind of market.

Looking at RX player base as "the part of rally fans that are also interested in RX" is completely off the mark. If it's easy to get in and gives insta action, then it's a perfect way to bring casual crowd into the game. Casuals are not racing game enthusiasts, they don't care about them, even when they call themselves "veterans" of some series.

RX doesn't need much development from what we can see, it's just a new track or/and a car every now and then and most will play it anyway. Some of us like to do a lot of circles around that small track, some of us prefer to do few long runs on a linear stage.
I was mostly talking about a dirt style game in general, just to break up the flow of things. That's what made something like FH2 so popular. There wasn't really much off road trails, but you could still at least romp around. I would disagree with casuals not being enthusiasts, maybe not as much as the hardcore, but you don't have to play a game for x,000 hours to be an enthusiast.

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iRacing is more an Amurcan concept,  (NASCAR sends us to sleep)  and some/most don't really see rallying as in Europe.  I just hope Dirt Rally lasts a little longer than Dirt 2 and having the rug pulled out from under us all.

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Please look at the date of the previous post before resurrecting really old threads.  ;)

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