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2020 FIA World Rally Championship

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bogani said:
versedi said:
Should we expect Mexico 2018 Tactics on PS where everyone will try to go later than the other? ;) 

That will be problematic for All Live :P 
Yeah, that’s why I feel they will have to do something about this. They have tv schedules to stick to, they can’t have everyone using up all their permitted lateness to try and get better road positions. Ogier did get some kind of penalty for it, but I’m not quite sure how international time works. On national time in the UK you wouldn’t get a penalty for doing that unless you were over your permitted lateness (often 15-30 minutes depending on the rally), in which case you would be Over Time Limit (OTL) and be retired from the event
As I said before, if they add the time penalty to the stage that you were late for, the loophole disapears. 30 seconds or more added to the power stage surely means zero PS-points.

Update: And he actually got a 4.20 penalty this time.
Not sure, but you get 10 seconds for each minute you're late to a TC?
Ogier got a 4:10 penalty time. It was Evans who got the 4:20 penalty, to bump Ogier back into 10th. Sneaksie M-Sport.

I wouldn't mind seeing this kind of loophole closed, mainly because we TV audience were cheated of drivers to watch on the PS. But rather than changing PS format, it looks like they're being asked to look at changing how national events share WRC events.

Bogani, you're right; that article also mentions the penalties: "one minute for every minute or fraction of a minute early; 10 seconds for every minute late".

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All I can say is, if I was Ogier I would have done the same thing. You have to play the game. If he did it, anyone could have. I understand his frustration about road position. It would really suck to be in a fighting position for the win and not be able to accomplish it. I don't dislike any WRC driver because I think they all would have done something to help them in the championship. (Also 4 WDC don't lie).

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That loophole is easy to close - starting late / early in the PS - no points from PS or add the penalty to PS time. I just hope it will be closed ASAP. I'm not blaming Ogier or MSport- FIA changed PS system and didn't bothered to check over the rules. After blowing trough out the event, it was small reward. 
Breen and Mads were two suprises for me - I wouldn't bet them to be so high. Even more surprising was Evans lack of speed - makes you wonder, thous strong results from last year, how much he benefited from Dmack?

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juu1ius said:
That loophole is easy to close - starting late / early in the PS - no points from PS or add the penalty to PS time. I just hope it will be closed ASAP. I'm not blaming Ogier or MSport- FIA changed PS system and didn't bothered to check over the rules. After blowing trough out the event, it was small reward. 
Breen and Mads were two suprises for me - I wouldn't bet them to be so high. Even more surprising was Evans lack of speed - makes you wonder, thous strong results from last year, how much he benefited from Dmack?
Breen definitely, mads has always been good on snow, but still surprised to see him take to the c3 so well. Pretty sure Evans himself said he struggles on snow in a stage end interview this weekend. Plus, even if you do have a tyre advantage, at the end of the day you’ve still got to drive the car. He outdrove everyone at wales, and Argentina as well.

The most important thing I feel about this ps loophole is that it messes with tv coverage. If you’re trying to bring the sport to live tv, you need a definitive result on tv. That’s going to confuse newcomers to the sport when they don’t see Ogier finish yet he’s still in the result. Then he jumps back ahead of Evans at the end. If anything, the final time control should be right after the end of the stage, that way results can be finalised live as it happens 

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juu1ius said:
That loophole is easy to close - starting late / early in the PS - no points from PS or add the penalty to PS time. I just hope it will be closed ASAP. I'm not blaming Ogier or MSport- FIA changed PS system and didn't bothered to check over the rules. After blowing trough out the event, it was small reward. 
Breen and Mads were two suprises for me - I wouldn't bet them to be so high. Even more surprising was Evans lack of speed - makes you wonder, thous strong results from last year, how much he benefited from Dmack?
Breen definitely, mads has always been good on snow, but still surprised to see him take to the c3 so well. Pretty sure Evans himself said he struggles on snow in a stage end interview this weekend. Plus, even if you do have a tyre advantage, at the end of the day you’ve still got to drive the car. He outdrove everyone at wales, and Argentina as well.

The most important thing I feel about this ps loophole is that it messes with tv coverage. If you’re trying to bring the sport to live tv, you need a definitive result on tv. That’s going to confuse newcomers to the sport when they don’t see Ogier finish yet he’s still in the result. Then he jumps back ahead of Evans at the end. If anything, the final time control should be right after the end of the stage, that way results can be finalised live as it happens 
I do believe that Evens just had a bad rally. Like you said. even with the different tires you still need to drive the car and Evens did that to an amazing degree last year. I think he will bounce back. As for the TV coverage that would make sense because you want to see all the drivers in the stage. I use RedBull TV and I get the PS live so it would be nice.

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Qualifying stage might make a return thanks to Ogier.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/134513/wrc-qualifying-system-could-be-revived

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sqdstr said:
Qualifying stage might make a return thanks to Ogier.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/134513/wrc-qualifying-system-could-be-revived
I still think the current system is the most fair. At the end of the day, someone has to start first on the road, why not the person who is doing the best? Plus it’s not always a disadvantage, such as dry tarmac and wet gravel

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sqdstr said:
Qualifying stage might make a return thanks to Ogier.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/134513/wrc-qualifying-system-could-be-revived
I still think the current system is the most fair. At the end of the day, someone has to start first on the road, why not the person who is doing the best? Plus it’s not always a disadvantage, such as dry tarmac and wet gravel
You win some you lose some. Its a constant trade off. One round you have the best position one round you don't. But sometimes you can still fight no matter where you start.

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sqdstr said:
Qualifying stage might make a return thanks to Ogier.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/134513/wrc-qualifying-system-could-be-revived
I still think the current system is the most fair. At the end of the day, someone has to start first on the road, why not the person who is doing the best? Plus it’s not always a disadvantage, such as dry tarmac and wet gravel
You win some you lose some. Its a constant trade off. One round you have the best position one round you don't. But sometimes you can still fight no matter where you start.
I’ve always been a fan of reverse grid positions. I’ve mentioned before I watch formula 1 stockccars in the UK. They start in reverse order, with the best drivers racing from the back of the grid, so they have to battle their way to the front. I don’t see why drivers who are struggling should be given the worse starting position. It’s just a double disadvantage.

It’s the same in WRC, why should the driver’s who are struggling be given the worst starting position? They’re never going to improve that way

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That might make it easier for new guys and keep everyone happy (except the fastest guys, example ogier). I am quite indifferent about it, but from a competition stand point it seems best for the quickest drivers. If you are fastest, best driver (which we have multitude of currently) on every rally you can select your starting position in order of your speed in the rally (location). This would optimally result in tightest competition between best drivers, which i believe is what rallying is all about? If the best drivers are always choosing the best starting positions, for sure you cant complain that one driver had better position than another (being first vs last).


In the end I see it putting weight on different things. Current system rewards consistency regardless if you obviously lose time based on your starting position (ogier truly has mastered this rule while others are scrambling to just win every rally, playing into his hand with each mistake they make). I dont mind it really, it just sets the nature of the game. But if I could choose I'd put more weight on competition between best drivers on every rally on the calendar.

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For the record, my view on this is that it's the power stage concept that's at fault. It's just not rallying. No doubt they'll have the rules changed so you must arrive at the last stage on time, but I hate the fact it will penalise some amateur drivers just trying to proudly reach the end of the rally. Maybe if the change is only an ineligibility for PS points, but still, I'd much rather they binned the concept.
And also, well done Seb.
Also, bring back qualifying stages please.

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What if they ran 3 WRC cars at speed through the stage before the start. Call them road sweepers or something. Then start the Offical timed stage.

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I think a more elegant solution would be to let each team have the option of putting one car at the front of the running order. Let the running order of those cars be determined by the manufacturers points if multiple cars go in front. 

So for Sweden, We could've had the regular road order for all drivers, but each team could've put a driver at the front.

So most likely M-Sport would've put Suninen in the front to sweep for Ogier, but I don't think any other team would've pushed another car in there. If Toyota would've wanted they could've pushed Lappi up there as nr 2 on the starting order to sweep a bit more for Tänak and Latvala (but also for Ogier).

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In fairness, they probably would have put Evans in front (out if contention) to sweep for Ogier. And he did run before, so that wouldn't have been any different.

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Dytut said:
I think a more elegant solution would be to let each team have the option of putting one car at the front of the running order. Let the running order of those cars be determined by the manufacturers points if multiple cars go in front. 

So for Sweden, We could've had the regular road order for all drivers, but each team could've put a driver at the front.

So most likely M-Sport would've put Suninen in the front to sweep for Ogier, but I don't think any other team would've pushed another car in there. If Toyota would've wanted they could've pushed Lappi up there as nr 2 on the starting order to sweep a bit more for Tänak and Latvala (but also for Ogier).
Meh. That would go all in favor of team orders, hierarchies and penalising young drivers who don't have much experience for no reason. And what would happen woth Citroën who usually run just two cars?

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carpa said:
Dytut said:
I think a more elegant solution would be to let each team have the option of putting one car at the front of the running order. Let the running order of those cars be determined by the manufacturers points if multiple cars go in front. 

So for Sweden, We could've had the regular road order for all drivers, but each team could've put a driver at the front.

So most likely M-Sport would've put Suninen in the front to sweep for Ogier, but I don't think any other team would've pushed another car in there. If Toyota would've wanted they could've pushed Lappi up there as nr 2 on the starting order to sweep a bit more for Tänak and Latvala (but also for Ogier).
Meh. That would go all in favor of team orders, hierarchies and penalising young drivers who don't have much experience for no reason. And what would happen woth Citroën who usually run just two cars?
Plus rallies can be so unpredictable. In this case, Citroen would have used Breen to sweep for Meeke, but Breen was much quicker than him. 

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carpa said:
Dytut said:
I think a more elegant solution would be to let each team have the option of putting one car at the front of the running order. Let the running order of those cars be determined by the manufacturers points if multiple cars go in front. 

So for Sweden, We could've had the regular road order for all drivers, but each team could've put a driver at the front.

So most likely M-Sport would've put Suninen in the front to sweep for Ogier, but I don't think any other team would've pushed another car in there. If Toyota would've wanted they could've pushed Lappi up there as nr 2 on the starting order to sweep a bit more for Tänak and Latvala (but also for Ogier).
Meh. That would go all in favor of team orders, hierarchies and penalising young drivers who don't have much experience for no reason. And what would happen woth Citroën who usually run just two cars?
Plus rallies can be so unpredictable. In this case, Citroen would have used Breen to sweep for Meeke, but Breen was much quicker than him. 
Fair point. I'm torn between road position ideas. On one hand, the current system is decently fair, since it makes it more of a challenge for the championship leader(s), but at the same time it would be good to have some form of sweeper before the championship leader to level the playing field just a little bit. In Sweden it really was horrible for Ogier, but for Tänak it started to get a bit better already as second car. 

But Sweden this year was an extreme case aswell, on other rallies Ogier usually has been able to keep in in contact with the lead after day one so if it's just edge cases like Sweden then I don't think it's time to overreact.

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Dytut said:
carpa said:
Dytut said:
I think a more elegant solution would be to let each team have the option of putting one car at the front of the running order. Let the running order of those cars be determined by the manufacturers points if multiple cars go in front. 

So for Sweden, We could've had the regular road order for all drivers, but each team could've put a driver at the front.

So most likely M-Sport would've put Suninen in the front to sweep for Ogier, but I don't think any other team would've pushed another car in there. If Toyota would've wanted they could've pushed Lappi up there as nr 2 on the starting order to sweep a bit more for Tänak and Latvala (but also for Ogier).
Meh. That would go all in favor of team orders, hierarchies and penalising young drivers who don't have much experience for no reason. And what would happen woth Citroën who usually run just two cars?
Plus rallies can be so unpredictable. In this case, Citroen would have used Breen to sweep for Meeke, but Breen was much quicker than him. 
Fair point. I'm torn between road position ideas. On one hand, the current system is decently fair, since it makes it more of a challenge for the championship leader(s), but at the same time it would be good to have some form of sweeper before the championship leader to level the playing field just a little bit. In Sweden it really was horrible for Ogier, but for Tänak it started to get a bit better already as second car. 

But Sweden this year was an extreme case aswell, on other rallies Ogier usually has been able to keep in in contact with the lead after day one so if it's just edge cases like Sweden then I don't think it's time to overreact.
Not only is/was sweden an extreme case of road sweeping (ploughing hehe) but it was an extreme winter for sweden nowadays. There is currently a large cold area over northern hemisphere/europe, causing very cold temperatures and obviously lot of snow to stick around. I remember hearing some of the commentators like becsy who have been going to sweden every year in the 2000s and never has there ever been such amount of snow and high banks.

On the flipside, even in sweden it could have been deemed the best position on the road to be first, when the event was in danger of cancelling stages due to insufficient snow conditions. The whole debacle to change the rules is really a knee-jerk reaction to a extreme case, whereas normally in sweden its much more in line with other locations' road sweeping conditions both in good and bad.

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It's not as much of fresh snow that made the difference, but the local and historic cars that are using different tires, that makes new ruts and impossible to drive  for WRC cars. Take a look at the time losses between 1st pass and 2nd pass. No other rally has SUCH disadvantage. Road position should stay, but either get rid of historics and locals or let them use same tire for everyone.

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juu1ius said:
It's not as much of fresh snow that made the difference, but the local and historic cars that are using different tires, that makes new ruts and impossible to drive  for WRC cars. Take a look at the time losses between 1st pass and 2nd pass. No other rally has SUCH disadvantage. Road position should stay, but either get rid of historics and locals or let them use same tire for everyone.
Or, as Ogier said, he should have been able to chose the same tyres the historics used, which is an old style wrc tyre. It would be bad for the event to lose historics

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I wonder if they'll actually be able to get the Safari rally back for 2020. With Japan lined up for 2019 it would be a quite full season if the Safari was to be in there aswell. Has China dropped out completely after the failure last time they tried?

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Dytut said:
I wonder if they'll actually be able to get the Safari rally back for 2020. With Japan lined up for 2019 it would be a quite full season if the Safari was to be in there aswell. Has China dropped out completely after the failure last time they tried?
Looks like it, hasn’t been mentioned since. There’s also been talk of Chile and Croatia, plus another snow event. 

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afaik, Chinas government wasn't really interested in  WRC project, only local region was packing it. Seems like there's a lot of interests in WRC events: Canada, Chile, Estonia,  Kenya all supported by their government and Japan pushed by Toyotas interest. Kenya is going big with their promo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPTaMSAsVvQ The new Rally Safari will be tamed down to smooth gravel roads.
Croatia was candidate for this season, are they still going to campaign for next year(s)?

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Yeah that's right, we have a bunch more candidates. Of all I've seen so far Japan seems closest to actually entering, with Canada and Safari getting close.

Sounded like Croatia was voted down last year, due to it being just another european rally. Estonia might pick up the slack of Rally Poland, but it suffers a bit from being Rally Finlands little brother much like Poland did.  If Turkey is a big let down this year they might get a shot, but Poland might also be ready to go for it again.
Chile sounded a bit interesting, since from what I understood the roads would set it apart from Argentina and Mexico on the South American scene.

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