Forum League

[Porkhammer 78]

KevM said:

:D there's that Tarmac word again. 

Sorry - watch Rally Germany and you will see that none of the cars will move like hovercraft. There's just no excuse for this, sorry.

Anyway, I know that codies are aware of the physics not being all that amazing. It just ticks me off when people try to defend them when even Codemasters themselves says they need work. And, speaking of which, gravel isn't perfect either; cars tend to flip over when trying to corner above a certain speed and whatnot (a phenomenon I only witnessed once in real-life rallying - Tommi Mäkinen in New Zealand, 1997) - and you'd have to be really properly sideways for it to actually occur. So there's that, but at least - in my opinion - the actual movement and weight transfer looks spot on.

Those issues aside, this is still the best rally game to date, and I'm not done playing it by a long shot. 804 hours and counting.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

KevM said:
Your whole argument contradicts itself Ryu so I don't know if you are for or against what I say.

Feel =/= actual grip.

That's what Porkhammer is trying to tell you, and on that note I agree with him. If it's possible to make a hovercraft in an arcade game go around corners faster than a go-kart (and it is, Burnout Paradise anyone?), that means you can make a hovercrafty like feeling handling while still making it fast through the corners. Remember, difference between arcade and simulator in the code doesn't exist. It's our perception of the end result that creates the difference between the two (simulator usually ending on the realism note, arcade being "over the top").

You often make it seem like driving a car or sitting in one makes you more "right" with your opinion. Sure, you have experience that I don't have in that department, but you obviously don't realise how things work in a game. In a game we're NOT sitting in the car due to the fact we're sitting in front of a screen in a building (in most cases), therefore we will never be able to have the actual feeling of the car due to the lack of G-force, vibrations etc. However, we have other sources of the feedback, for example we can see what is happening with the car, be it through different camera view or in replays, which is something you don't get while driving a car. All that means that your experience can't be directly translated into the game, as it's based on a different type of feedback than what is coming to you from the game.

On the note of "dirt over tarmac". The cars are behaving the same way, whether you're driving over a clean, frozen or DiRT'y tarmac. Yes, in case you haven't noticed, not every single piece of tarmac in Germany has dirt over it. The gliding feeling is the most obvious with Group B cars, least with the Focus '07 and Evo X. With Group B, it doesn't matter what settings you'll use, the car will always FEEL like it's gliding, even though it's still in full contact with the ground and has all its grip. With the 2000+ cars, you usually can negate most of the issue through a good setup.

I'm not really the person to start explaining entire physics programming here, as first I don't have proper enough knowledge of it, just basic understanding of how it works. But you should definitely read up on how, why and what it entails. Because again, feeling and the actual grip of the car in the game are two DIFFERENT things.

[SkyRex 417]

Well in my opinion V2 is closer to reality on tarmac that waht V1 was, but it's gone slightly too far. 

When talking about that sliding effect I always think of these two tight chicanes in Germany, its where the effect is best noticeable copmared to real life. The car always slights a little to wide in the direction of momentum when applying steering input, which gets worse when applying acceleration too. Since the weight transfer, suspension and so on would come into play on gravel too the issue here has to lay in the car-road-connection. That means either the tyre properties of tarmac tyres are not ideal or the grip and behavior from the different tarmac types are not correct. Both of these are probably inside the tyre physics of the game (Since I believe the tyres just ask for the type of underground they are currently on, instead of the underground itself physically behaving in any way) 

I'm no physicist and I know simulating the behavior of rubber-objects (tyres) is very difficult in general. So considering the physics calculations itself are correct and a close enough idealisation of real tyre physics (which seems good considering the good gravel physics), I would suggest an easy way to fix tarmac (CM listen now! ) : Allow the selection of tyres in (and only in) Custom events for events in Germany and Monte Carlo. Give us the current tyres and a selection of others with slightly changed property values like grip.

Then the community and yourself can test if one of the proposed tyres is closer to reality. And with the next update afterwards you can implement these into the rest of the game as standard (and remove the tyre selection again to remove all unrealistic tyres)  

[KevM 44]

RyuMakkuro said:

KevM said:
Your whole argument contradicts itself Ryu so I don't know if you are for or against what I say.

Feel =/= actual grip.

That's what Porkhammer is trying to tell you, and on that note I agree with him. If it's possible to make a hovercraft in an arcade game go around corners faster than a go-kart (and it is, Burnout Paradise anyone?), that means you can make a hovercrafty like feeling handling while still making it fast through the corners. Remember, difference between arcade and simulator in the code doesn't exist. It's our perception of the end result that creates the difference between the two (simulator usually ending on the realism note, arcade being "over the top").

You often make it seem like driving a car or sitting in one makes you more "right" with your opinion. Sure, you have experience that I don't have in that department, but you obviously don't realise how things work in a game. In a game we're NOT sitting in the car due to the fact we're sitting in front of a screen in a building (in most cases), therefore we will never be able to have the actual feeling of the car due to the lack of G-force, vibrations etc. However, we have other sources of the feedback, for example we can see what is happening with the car, be it through different camera view or in replays, which is something you don't get while driving a car. All that means that your experience can't be directly translated into the game, as it's based on a different type of feedback than what is coming to you from the game.

On the note of "dirt over tarmac". The cars are behaving the same way, whether you're driving over a clean, frozen or DiRT'y tarmac. Yes, in case you haven't noticed, not every single piece of tarmac in Germany has dirt over it. The gliding feeling is the most obvious with Group B cars, least with the Focus '07 and Evo X. With Group B, it doesn't matter what settings you'll use, the car will always FEEL like it's gliding, even though it's still in full contact with the ground and has all its grip. With the 2000+ cars, you usually can negate most of the issue through a good setup.

I'm not really the person to start explaining entire physics programming here, as first I don't have proper enough knowledge of it, just basic understanding of how it works. But you should definitely read up on how, why and what it entails. Because again, feeling and the actual grip of the car in the game are two DIFFERENT things.

To cut a long story short, eh?

So, to summarise:

In gaming terms, something can look like a hovercraft but handle like a go-kart but because we're not sitting in a hovercraft, we would believe that's how a hovercraft feels because there's no G Force and a computer can't recreate it, so it's then ok to feel like a go-kart?

Balls....

Next...
Not every part of Germany has dirt on it.  Correct, that's what I said.  
But cars glide over all of it?  No, they don't.
Then you say They do, but some modern cars don't? No, modern cars don't have the power to overcome grip, like grp b do.  Grip is grip, cars don't alter the stage, but cars ability to break traction  are different.

lastly:
feeling of grip and actual grip are 2 different things .  Well, to argue YOUR OWN point, 'actual' grip doesn't exist, it's all emulated to portray a sensation. or feeling. Just 0 and 1.  But arguing that because it's computerised, that it shouldn't behave like the subject it's emulating (Ryu's hovercraft go-karts) is confusing to me and the reverse of what I believe computer simulation to be??

& if you aren't a physics programmer OR a rally driver, why are you adamant on arguing black is white for the sake of it?

[YoMrWhite 11]

Uh, don't want to interrupt, but dirtgame.com is back up.

[Cortextual 146]

I don't know if Kev is trolling at this point or what, because no one can be so thick headed for real. The issue is the same on dry tarmac, yes tarmac, in monte carlo. Assuming none of us have real life driving experience, which isn't the case but clearly being told things has no affect on your vast wellspring of knowledge, no other sim behaves this way. Strange that all cars in other sims behave the same, and this one is different, the other sim developers must have all gotten together to collaboratively get it wrong I suppose. And yes I'm able to say they behave the same in this case, despite their differences, because this is such an obvious and fundamental problem existing in the very basic handling of the cars that makes them feel instantly unrealistic, no other sim would have gotten the title if their cars handled this way. 

Now, all this is pointless because the final build of the game is all but done and Paul has even gone off on holiday. No other changes are going to be made to the handling. The game engine has been a severely limiting factor but despite that the claim all through early access was to realism. In this, at least on tarmac, they've failed. The game is still great, on gravel. But tarmac sucks. Again, in terms of realism. If you enjoy the handling now, that's fine, that's great in fact because it's what you're stuck with.

Now feel free to make some sarcastic post in reply, it is after all what we do, maybe reference some hovercrafts or link some irrelevant garbage.

[KevM 44]

Porkhammer said:

KevM said:

:D there's that Tarmac word again. 

Sorry - watch Rally Germany and you will see that none of the cars will move like hovercraft. There's just no excuse for this, sorry.

Anyway, I know that codies are aware of the physics not being all that amazing. It just ticks me off when people try to defend them when even Codemasters themselves says they need work. And, speaking of which, gravel isn't perfect either; cars tend to flip over when trying to corner above a certain speed and whatnot (a phenomenon I only witnessed once in real-life rallying - Tommi Mäkinen in New Zealand, 1997) - and you'd have to be really properly sideways for it to actually occur. So there's that, but at least - in my opinion - the actual movement and weight transfer looks spot on.

Those issues aside, this is still the best rally game to date, and I'm not done playing it by a long shot. 804 hours and counting.

Also worth remembering, both jumps in Wales and Finland were created with V1 downforce in mind.  Grip/Surface changes were also designed with V1 in mind so as we've already seen with airtime, everything will seem slightly more exaggerated in a V2 car.  Jumps and grip are all pre-baked into the stages so it may have been acknowledged by CM as less than ideal, but unless the guys set about completely redoing the stages to suit the new downforce, I can't see anything changing. Safe to assume at this point!

In rally, the 'perfect stage' is something that doesn't exist, so like rally drivers, we have to suck it up & adjust our driving to suit the available grip. 

It it will be interesting to see if Sweden grip & jumps work hand in hand with V2.  Hopefully it's been modelled with V2 in focus

[Porkhammer 78]

Kev, being a fanboy is fun and all, but you're defending something that is so broken that I am just surprised how thick a skull you have. You've been co-driving this and driving instructing that for this and that period of time, so how can you not see how messed up V2 physics are? One would think that a dude with your "experience" would know a thing or two, yet you amaze all of us with your complete lack of knowledge of the most basic of things. You also seem to have the memory of a goldfish.

Nothing we say is going to convince Kev that V2 tarmac (and V2 panzerplatte, this is important apparently) is bad, so just let him be and proceed with the topic at hand. I'd be happy to take this in PM Kev, let's not get this topic derailed and locked.

[KevM 44]

Cortextual said:

I don't know if Kev is trolling at this point or what, because no one can be so thick headed for real. The issue is the same on dry tarmac, yes tarmac, in monte carlo. Assuming none of us have real life driving experience, which isn't the case but clearly being told things has no affect on your vast wellspring of knowledge, no other sim behaves this way. Strange that all cars in other sims behave the same, and this one is different, the other sim developers must have all gotten together to collaboratively get it wrong I suppose. And yes I'm able to say they behave the same in this case, despite their differences, because this is such an obvious and fundamental problem existing in the very basic handling of the cars that makes them feel instantly unrealistic, no other sim would have gotten the title if their cars handled this way. 

Now, all this is pointless because the final build of the game is all but done and Paul has even gone off on holiday. No other changes are going to be made to the handling. The game engine has been a severely limiting factor but despite that the claim all through early access was to realism. In this, at least on tarmac, they've failed. The game is still great, on gravel. But tarmac sucks. Again, in terms of realism. If you enjoy the handling now, that's fine, that's great in fact because it's what you're stuck with.

Now feel free to make some sarcastic post in reply, it is after all what we do, maybe reference some hovercrafts or link some irrelevant garbage.

Apart from the attacks (lol), I agree for the most part with you.

Handling has been a 2 part evolution, partly better, partly worse, but not changing.  It's done, over, final cut.  So accept it where it is and drive to suit.

We all use different input methods, we all use different cameras, it's going to feel different to each of us too.

Im never gonna say the game is perfect as is, but I'm satisfied that I can enjoy it as is.  It's better than anything Iv played before, so I couldn't care less on other 'opinions', I have my own!!

[Cortextual 146]

KevM said:

I couldn't care less on other 'opinions', I have my own!!

My word Kev, don't take this the wrong way but for someone who doesn't care you certainly do write a lot of essay-style posts. Well if you actually don't care then may I suggest that you just Sierra the Foxtrot Uncle so people who do care don't have to waste their time rebutting your carefully collated historical evidence. 

I'm not attacking you by any means, we're all friends here.

[Evilsmurf 90]

Don't need this thread bookmarked anymore. It's got nothing to do with the forum league anymore.

[RyuMakkuro 6]

@YoMrWhite You're added.

@Evilsmurf Well... this escalated quickly? xD

But in all seriousness, the physics discussion should go to the appropriate thread while this be left for the League stuff.

[KevM 44]

Yeah, forum etiquette has gone right out the window.  If it's not a view shared by the God & his fanboy, it's STFU apparently lol

anyways, jumped back in & got a puncture, so hardly gonna get to compete with you fine people!! :)

[Cortextual 146]

 Ok, ok. My apologies, I will cease my friendly banter with Kev and get back to the topic at hand.

I think the league is coming along nicely. If I was to try to find a good and relevant analogy I would say it's like a load of Egyptians pulling a block along on a bunch of logs =) 

Good job for getting it off the ground Ryu.

[Procver 3]

I'm back home and I'll be able to finish this event, yay!

[F2CMaDMaXX 505]

Wow, ok i didn't see this one to join, sigh me up please :)

[RyuMakkuro 6]

F2CMaDMaXX said:

Wow, ok i didn't see this one to join, sigh me up please :)

You're added.

[F2CMaDMaXX 505]

Than you, though i think i'll wait until the new one starts in a few hours :)

[Procver 3]

Finished!! One question, do we get to upgrade the cars in leagues? I don' see any improvement in my 6R4 so far...

[F2CMaDMaXX 505]

I don't think so, and my Manta isn't upgraded either, probably shouldn't have gone and done the league :)

[Procver 3]

I guess I'll have to do some custom stages before the next one then!

[F2CMaDMaXX 505]

Also, i hate you, you just bumped me out the top ten :(

[Procver 3]

F2CMaDMaXX said:

Also, i hate you, you just bumped me out the top ten :(

LOL sorry, I had to do it!

[RyuMakkuro 6]

Having not participating in the league, I may do some nice podium graphic for the end of the season. Naturally it will be quite easier knowing that 1st place will always be occupied by Porkhammer xD

[YoMrWhite 11]

One roll, a few spectators less, some crashes and a lot of fun.

Haven't driven the Metro much and didn't have time to practise, so the first stages were rather... eventful. But it kept getting better in the latter stages. Plus, it's a cool little car and handles really well in the tight corners.

RyuMakkuro, thank you for putting up this league.