Driving experience vs being fast

[Procver 3]

If I drove my car from a "helmet cam" like in games I think I would have my license removed, the view angle is very narrow, once I get a couple of more monitors then's a no brainer.

[shadow118 18]

TonyRickard said:

dynt said:

For me I think the profiler settings on steering rotation is a bit miss leading, the quick rack I had on my Gr 4 escort was 2 and a 1/4 turns lock to lock moving on to the last rally car I owned a WRC Subaru this was also just over 2 turns lock to lock.

For me the biggest difference in realism is force feedback, I recently managed to pick up a used EECI 7000, this wheel is a complete beast and can replicate real life feedback to an incredible level. However if you dial it up to levels replicating real life feedback it hugely hampers the setting of fast times as you are fighting the forces of what the wheel is replicating so I have to dial it right down to get some where close on online events.

If you enable soft lock in DIRT Rally and select the maximum degrees in the profiler it will give you the correct steering rotation for each car, be it 3 turns lock to lock for the Fiat right down to 1.5 for the Fiesta.

Speed of steering does seem to be an important factor, hence reducing steering degrees and lowering FFB resistance seem to improve stage times (at the expense of driving feel IMHO)

Lower degrees will be better for turning and fast countersteering, while high dergrees will be better for keeping in a straight line or goingh through long sweeping tunrs.  Just turning it down won't really help, you need to find a balance. For me that is 540°, I used to drive with 200°, (when I had my old wheel), but it was bit harder, to drive as smoothly. I also did try a few races with 900°, as long as I was going straight and just driving, it was fine. As soon as the back stepped out or some other sligh mess up, I was done for. 

[TonyRickard 17]

Didzis said:

Lower degrees will be better for turning and fast countersteering, while high dergrees will be better for keeping in a straight line or goingh through long sweeping tunrs.  Just turning it down won't really help, you need to find a balance.

I have done a fair bit of testing in DIRT Rally and I smash my personal bests with lower steering degrees. Of course it gets very twitchy on the straights but you are seldom driving dead straight and a bit of wiggling seems to work!
It is logical faster steering helps but it is the sheer amount of steering lock one can instantly apply that seems a bit too effective to me.

[KevM 44]

Porkhammer said:

Like I said, small screen... cockpit cam on a small screen. And one is supposed to find this realistic how? You don't see as much as you would in real-life. Not even close.

What part of this don't you understand?

What part of sitting on the bonnet is 'realistic'?  How is that even an argument you put your name to??

Sitting in the car, (a real one), I cant see the bonnet edge, or passenger side corner.  Judgement is a part of driving.  But as you've said, the authentic view has Massive disadvantage due to the tunnel vision on the monitor and lack of viewable boundaries of the car.

I don't mind what view you use, I am quicker with bonnet cam and 200 deg too, but that's not simulating a driving experience, so not satisfactory to me.  
In fact, you are just saying I'm wrong for the sake of it because of the 'slide-gate' thread (a phenomenon that I agree is more apparent when sitting on the bonnet & not exclusive to tarmac either, but not that troublesome with dash-cam).

[KevM 44]

RyuMakkuro said:
I agree, dashcam definitely gives the most authentic experience, or rather the view the closest you would have to IRL. After all, if someone is using a steering wheel, he'll be seeing two steering wheels with cockpit camera. Pretty sure there's only one steering wheel in a car...

Quite the U-turn Ryu...  lol :)

[function9 0]

Sheesh. You guys make it sound like if you don't use bonnet/bumper cams and 180 steering lock there's no way you can be quick. Sounds like a Quake forum debating whether low sens or high sens and low fov or high fov are better. Use what feels good to you and practice.

[Porkhammer 78]

KevM said:

Porkhammer said:

Like I said, small screen... cockpit cam on a small screen. And one is supposed to find this realistic how? You don't see as much as you would in real-life. Not even close.

What part of this don't you understand?

What part of sitting on the bonnet is 'realistic'?  How is that even an argument you put your name to??

Sitting in the car, (a real one), I cant see the bonnet edge, or passenger side corner.  Judgement is a part of driving.  But as you've said, the authentic view has Massive disadvantage due to the tunnel vision on the monitor and lack of viewable boundaries of the car.

I don't mind what view you use, I am quicker with bonnet cam and 200 deg too, but that's not simulating a driving experience, so not satisfactory to me.  
In fact, you are just saying I'm wrong for the sake of it because of the 'slide-gate' thread (a phenomenon that I agree is more apparent when sitting on the bonnet & not exclusive to tarmac either, but not that troublesome with dash-cam).

What part of sitting in a cockpit where you can't see anything is realistic?

Driving from cockpit cam isn't simulating a driving experience any better than the bonnet cam does, due to the simple fact that I can't see anything - and I know for a fact that in real life one can see a lot more.

Were you to give me two additional monitors however, and some sort of moving device underneath my hindquarters to give me a rough idea of where the rest of the car is, then I'd take your argument into consideration. However as it is now, you're arguing for the sake of arguing, because I honestly don't believe you'd seriously try to compare real-life driving to PC gaming. It just isn't possible. Why do you think some of the real rally drivers drive from bonnet camera on a single monitor when they're playing? That's right - because cockpit camera doesn't let them see half as much as they would in real-life. Creepy huh?

[Dytut 89]

I'm looking forward to getting a VR headset. Which I will use in chase cam, just to mess with people.

[Rallycameraman 241]

I absolutely hate using cockpit cam in racing games, whilst it may provide a more 'authentic experience' I find that I can never get a perfect view, particularly with 1 screen, and I just can't see enough, or have a proper feeling to what the car is doing.

At the end of the day, all a racing game does is simulate how a car behaves and feels on a certain surface. But it'll never compare to the real thing. 

[KevM 44]

Sitting strapped into a winged Race Seat with a 6 point harness, wearing a Full face Helmet and Hans device sort of hinders your peripheral view too in fairness.  Some sims have an in-helmet view now too (shocking, i know!!)

Any D:R actual rally driver videos I have watched use cockpit cam and 1 or 3 screens.  The RX boys, however, use bonnet, but then they are all dude-bro's :)

I honestly have better yaw feedback with dashcam Porky,  I can feel the car more, but then we've had that debate.  Bonnet is ok when bombing down a stage, but its harder to feel in real-time, what the car is doing under you, but because of the view, it actually matters less as you can bully the position of the car within the stage boundaries accurately.  And, I agree, after using Dash and 200 on our Welsh league last night, the steering feels funky with bonnet cam (even on gravel), especially with lamp-pods in the view.  The car doesn't actually steer with the front wheels, but centre-pivots into corners.  I actually had a chuckle to myself when sitting on the start-line stationary.  The car was pivoting left and right slightly even while parked!

Point is, we all get different kicks from different things.  I enjoy trying to drift a 6R4 without taking a wheel off, you enjoy finishing first by any means necessary!

[thecraicbear 0]

KevM said:

Sitting strapped into a winged Race Seat with a 6 point harness, wearing a Full face Helmet and Hans device sort of hinders your peripheral view too in fairness.  Some sims have an in-helmet view now too (shocking, i know!!)

Any D:R actual rally driver videos I have watched use cockpit cam and 1 or 3 screens.  The RX boys, however, use bonnet, but then they are all dude-bro's :)

I honestly have better yaw feedback with dashcam Porky,  I can feel the car more, but then we've had that debate.  Bonnet is ok when bombing down a stage, but its harder to feel in real-time, what the car is doing under you, but because of the view, it actually matters less as you can bully the position of the car within the stage boundaries accurately.  And, I agree, after using Dash and 200 on our Welsh league last night, the steering feels funky with bonnet cam (even on gravel), especially with lamp-pods in the view.  The car doesn't actually steer with the front wheels, but centre-pivots into corners.  I actually had a chuckle to myself when sitting on the start-line stationary.  The car was pivoting left and right slightly even while parked!

Point is, we all get different kicks from different things.  I enjoy trying to drift a 6R4 without taking a wheel off, you enjoy finishing first by any means necessary!

Ultimately, people should just stick with whatever they're most comfortable with.

I agree that cockpit cam is a bit naff if one hasn't got another 2 monitors to spare, but I also understand why people would still prefer to use cockpit cam. 

Personally, I use a mix of dash-cam and bonnet. I don't want to be using cockpit cam unless I have another 2 monitors and some Track IR integration. 

[Cortextual 146]

When I get an Oculus it will be head cam all the way. Mmmmm, Oculus. Till then I do what I want gosh darnit.

[JvanE 0]

I love the dash cam the most but stopped using it because the dirt on the window blocks the view on the road too much. So for now I use the head cam pushed forward all the way. In some cars this still doesn't feel right but in my Fulvia it's okay.

I don't use restarts and assists etc. but right now I have my G27 at 200 degrees because I am used to it and noticed I suck with higher settings. And also because it is pretty hard, if not impossible, to use a button on the wheel for hanbrake. With 900 degrees I would need something else for handbrake.

I do however use the H-shifter and clutch because it feels more real.

So... all in all my realism is a mixed bag ;) but hey, I just want to enjoy this game! So I use whatever settings I like for a nice experience. (I am not interested in online leaderboards at ALL). But since I am into another playing mode since last weekend (after winning Masters) I might give 900 degrees another try, just for realism sake. As it is now I am mainly playing for the experience since beating the AI has slightly lost its challenge. (Did the real Fulvia have a handbrake in the sixties...?)

P.S. Had a look at some real life onboard footage where you can see the driver and noticed the insane amount of counter steering: I hardly ever have to do that. Does that have to do with me using 200 degrees? Anyway, the coming days I will force myself to use 900 degrees no matter what. See if I can get used to it. That would make the experience even more real.

[JZStudios 631]

Dytut said:

I'm looking forward to getting a VR headset. Which I will use in chase cam, just to mess with people.

God, I feel like that would make me sick, and I don't get sick easy. I can't use a wheel and chase cam, the FFB starts to feel off and I constantly end up fishtailing and spinning out on a straightaway. Controllers are fine though.

[JZStudios 631]

In other news, arguing about cockpit cam vs. single monitor, I got downgraded from a 1080 monitor to 1280*1024. It's pretty crazy how much a difference that extra widescreen amount makes. It's almost like driving in an elevated bumper cam, I can't see either side of my car.

[Rallycameraman 241]

JZStudios said:

Dytut said:

I'm looking forward to getting a VR headset. Which I will use in chase cam, just to mess with people.

God, I feel like that would make me sick, and I don't get sick easy. I can't use a wheel and chase cam, the FFB starts to feel off and I constantly end up fishtailing and spinning out on a straightaway. Controllers are fine though.

I sometimes try chase cam for fun but it usually ends up in a pretty big accident. 

[TonyRickard 17]

JZStudios said:

In other news, arguing about cockpit cam vs. single monitor, I got downgraded from a 1080 monitor to 1280*1024. It's pretty crazy how much a difference that extra widescreen amount makes. It's almost like driving in an elevated bumper cam, I can't see either side of my car.

It is pretty amazing looking back. I remember the first time I tried Indy 500 on a 12" screen with 320x200 resolution and I thought it was great. Now I look at screen shots and I wonder how I made out the track! That first time with Quake using 2 Voodoo cards and 1024x768 was pretty special.

It is interesting how we can adapt and it becomes immersive until something better comes along and makes it obsolete.

[OzoreXS 0]

JvanE said:

I love the dash cam the most but stopped using it because the dirt on the window blocks the view on the road too much. So for now I use the head cam pushed forward all the way. In some cars this still doesn't feel right but in my Fulvia it's okay.

I don't use restarts and assists etc. but right now I have my G27 at 200 degrees because I am used to it and noticed I suck with higher settings. And also because it is pretty hard, if not impossible, to use a button on the wheel for hanbrake. With 900 degrees I would need something else for handbrake.

I do however use the H-shifter and clutch because it feels more real.

So... all in all my realism is a mixed bag ;) but hey, I just want to enjoy this game! So I use whatever settings I like for a nice experience. (I am not interested in online leaderboards at ALL). But since I am into another playing mode since last weekend (after winning Masters) I might give 900 degrees another try, just for realism sake. As it is now I am mainly playing for the experience since beating the AI has slightly lost its challenge. (Did the real Fulvia have a handbrake in the sixties...?)

P.S. Had a look at some real life onboard footage where you can see the driver and noticed the insane amount of counter steering: I hardly ever have to do that. Does that have to do with me using 200 degrees? Anyway, the coming days I will force myself to use 900 degrees no matter what. See if I can get used to it. That would make the experience even more real.

When you decide to use full steering lock of your wheel, you will must use "soft lock" in game.
This provides the real lock to lock degrees for each car. Less than a half uses 900º.

You will find many cars at 720º and 540º. Once you get used to 900º, you will find too quick and responsive the cars with 540 and 720º  on steering wheel.

You rarely will need to use 900º while driving... you may confront some heavy oversteer and suddenly yes, you make a quick whole turn on the wheel just to get it back to center intantly.
On regular driving I almost never perform corrections over 200º.

Since the new car games provides this technology (soft lock) now I always drive with 900º in profiler + the real steering lock provided by the game.

About the handbrake I recommend you to use the rubberbands trick on shifter. This way, set the "up" (push) movement for clutch override and "down" (pull) for handbrake. Use pads to change gears ;)
I think you will love it.

Oh, and dont be afraid to move hard and quick the wheel! Even if it "scream" and sound like your killing a pig. xD 
I noticed many people is too afraid of damaging the wheel. Well, its harder than it appears... but theres a limit, of course.

[TonyRickard 17]

KevM said:

For immersion, what view do you use @TonyRickard  ?

I use the cockpit view but with the seat pushed way forward until it is pretty close to the dash view. I have a Symprojects Race Pro so that is my dashboard, so the view is as close to looking out the windscreen as I can get it.

I have tried the bumper cam as well which I think works pretty well in rally sims where you don't have other cars around you but prefer the cockpit/dash views.

I also have a DK2 which is great for racing but find triple screens more enjoyable for DIRT Rally.

[TonyRickard 17]

bogani said:

The actual cockpit in cockpit cam usually takes away too much vision to feel realistic in my opinion, so with the monitor just behind the wheel, dash cam is the best one for me. You really need three screens to mimic something close to the peripheral vision you have IRL.

I think triple screens adds to the immersion and can get closer to 1:1 view out of the windscreen but for rallying I am not sure the peripheral vision is as necessary as a racing sim other than feeling more realistic.

[JZStudios 631]

TonyRickard said:

It is pretty amazing looking back. I remember the first time I tried Indy 500 on a 12" screen with 320x200 resolution and I thought it was great. Now I look at screen shots and I wonder how I made out the track! That first time with Quake using 2 Voodoo cards and 1024x768 was pretty special.

It is interesting how we can adapt and it becomes immersive until something better comes along and makes it obsolete.

My friend and I plugged in the PS1 to his TV to play some Metal Gear, It took us about an hour to actually get used to the resolution. Until then we literally couldn't see anything and ran in circles.

TonyRickard said:

I think triple screens adds to the immersion and can get closer to 1:1 view out of the windscreen but for rallying I am not sure the peripheral vision is as necessary as a racing sim other than feeling more realistic.

I found Triple to be a lot better in DR, especially on the hairpins. Trying to drive around a hairpin when you don't know where the edge of your car is less than optimal, it really helped me with those tighter turns. Plus on Greece one side you see a cliff face, and on the other a dropoff. It's pretty awesome.

[dgeesi0 305]

the simple thing is people who are fast will be fast regardless of rotation of wheel degrees or view.

every car game has this discussion and is always the exact same replies. just enjoy how you play.forget about what others do.

[Dytut 89]

dgeesi0 said:

the simple thing is people who are fast will be fast regardless of rotation of wheel degrees or view.

every car game has this discussion and is always the exact same replies. just enjoy how you play.forget about what others do.

Yup! Some of the fastest use keyboard ffs :-)

[TonyRickard 17]

dgeesi0 said:

the simple thing is people who are fast will be fast regardless of rotation of wheel degrees or view.

every car game has this discussion and is always the exact same replies. just enjoy how you play.forget about what others do.

My original comment was not that other people are faster than me, I accept that and yes, sadly it is down to skill! My point was that I am significantly faster (to the tune of 5-10 seconds on a 3 minute stage) with a low rotation setup than a realistic one. I am comparing me to me :)

It does create the dilemma. As some have said the challenge is to go as fast as possible. Yet this is also a simulation where we can get an experience as close as possible to driving a real car on stage. Of course we can say it is just a game as we can be so brave on our computers yet for many of us the driving experience is the key enjoyment.

So a decision has to be made to be knowingly slower for the experience. I would like to think that as sims evolve that decision would be come less apparent, hence it gets discussed with every car game. We shouldn't just accept that is the way it is.
 

[JvanE 0]

OzoreXS said:

When you decide to use full steering lock of your wheel, you will must use "soft lock" in game.
This provides the real lock to lock degrees for each car. Less than a half uses 900º.

You will find many cars at 720º and 540º. Once you get used to 900º, you will find too quick and responsive the cars with 540 and 720º  on steering wheel.

You rarely will need to use 900º while driving... you may confront some heavy oversteer and suddenly yes, you make a quick whole turn on the wheel just to get it back to center intantly.
On regular driving I almost never perform corrections over 200º.

Since the new car games provides this technology (soft lock) now I always drive with 900º in profiler + the real steering lock provided by the game.

About the handbrake I recommend you to use the rubberbands trick on shifter. This way, set the "up" (push) movement for clutch override and "down" (pull) for handbrake. Use pads to change gears ;)
I think you will love it.

Oh, and dont be afraid to move hard and quick the wheel! Even if it "scream" and sound like your killing a pig. xD 
I noticed many people is too afraid of damaging the wheel. Well, its harder than it appears... but theres a limit, of course.

Thanks for all the tips! I mainly (well, only) drive the Fulvia so with clutch and H-shifter: so I can't use the rubberband handbrake tip. I did read somewhere else about using a joystick for the handbrake and I might give that a try.

This evening I did my first (serious) stages with 900 degrees (which actually is 900 degrees in the Fulvia ;) ) and it feels like a totally different game! I have to learn drving all over again. Seriously! My times suck with it!

But what I noted most... is that I needserious good FORCE FEEDBACK settings!!! The rather default settings I am using leave me almost clueless while driving! I have the idea I am missing a lot of needed input. I can now go around corners with the quick turn of a wheel and need to counter steer a lot more (like in the real life videos I saw) but somehow I am seeing and experiencing things I am not feeling, which makes it pretty hard!

What are the most commonly used FFB for the G27 nowadays, as well as in Windows as in the game? I really have to idea I need a lot better feedback if I want to learn driving with 900 degrees! I don't need feedback to be just stronger but more precise: I have the idea I am not feeling the car and that this is a LOT more important when using 900 degrees.