Driving experience vs being fast

[KevM 44]

Wheel Profiler:
Effects Strength 107
Spring 100
Damper 100
Centre Spring 0 Enabled
900deg Rotation

Game:
Deadzone 0
Saturation 100
Linearity 0
FFB:
SAT 125
Wheel friction 15
Tyre friction 15
Suspension 100
Tyre Slip 50
Collision 100
Soft Lock 100
Centre Force 100

[RyuMakkuro 6]

TonyRickard said:
sadly it is down to skill!

Sadly? What, you would prefer if it were purely down to the depth of someone's wallet? I think we should be happy it's down to skill (even though without a steering wheel competing for 2nd place is pointless).

[JvanE 0]

KevM said:

Wheel Profiler:
Effects Strength 107
Spring 100
Damper 100
Centre Spring 0 Enabled
900deg Rotation

Game:
Deadzone 0
Saturation 100
Linearity 0
FFB:
SAT 125
Wheel friction 15
Tyre friction 15
Suspension 100
Tyre Slip 50
Collision 100
Soft Lock 100
Centre Force 100

Thanks, I will give those a try. Surprised to see those low 15 settings though...!

[OzoreXS 0]

KevM said:

Wheel Profiler:
Effects Strength 107
Spring 100
Damper 100
Centre Spring 0 Enabled
900deg Rotation

Game:
Deadzone 0
Saturation 100
Linearity 0
FFB:
SAT 125
Wheel friction 15
Tyre friction 15
Suspension 100
Tyre Slip 50
Collision 100
Soft Lock 100
Centre Force 100

yup.

@JvanE , just try out to modify Self Align Torque (SAT) and Tyre friction to your liking.

And, why not, have a look to my actual config:

INGAME
Advanced wheel options:
  Steering Saturation = 100%
  Steering linearity = 0
  Deadzones = 0%
  Soft lock = ON
  Center steering = ON
Vibration & feedback:
  Self Align Torque (SAT) = 140%
  Wheel friction = 15% (above 50 adds some dead weight that I dont like. Especially countersteering)
  Tyre friction = 45% (adds some feeling of pressure of the tyres against the surface such understeering revealer or differentials acting)
  Suspension = 105% (adds some vibrations from the surface that I like; it provides immersion. Helps too feel weight transfers too)
  Tyre slip = 95% (adds some slight vibrations from the wheels under skidding condition)
  Collision = 100% (purely intended when you crash into trees, banks, traffic signals, poles,...)
  Soft lock = 150% (helps to show a bit clearly where is the wheel lock limit when using cars that has a lock below 900º)
  Steering Center Force = 150% (when you restart the car, this autocenter the wheel)
LOGITECH PROFILER
√ Use special force feedback device settings
    Overal Effects Strenght = 107
    Spring Effect Strenght = 105 (keep it lower than SAT)
    Damper Effect Strenght = 50 (above 60 interferes with overall effects)
√ Enable centering spring (enabled)
   Centering spring strenght = 0
√ Use special steering wheel settings
  □ Report combined pedals (disabled)
      Degrees of rotation = 900º
√ Use special game settings
  √ Allow game to adjust settings

Thats all.

[KevM 44]

Dropping the Wheel and Tyre frictions down let the other important forces seem more apparent.

Wheel friction is literally just dead weight (Increasing is heavy, like not having power steering)
Tyre friction feels like it works against Self Aligning Torque (which is what happens real front suspension to pull the wheel to countersteer when the rear slides out - essential for effectively catching slides & drifting intuitively)

[JvanE 0]

Thanks for the settings and detailed explanations, KevM and OzoreXS! Much appreciated! I will give it all a try the coming days!

EDIT
Holy crap!!! Gave those settings a try (currently copied KevM's settings with a little tweak of mine in some places) and WOW! After all these hours of playing DR I finally have the feeling I am driving a real car!!! I now can feel the car and what the tires are doing, I know feel when I need to act or not, etc. it's bloody awesome! My times obviously still suck but I will get there in time (no pun intended). I am not in this game to win anyway so finishing 6th in a Greek stage with lots of hairpins and these new settings (Masters) is perfectly fine with me! I will only get better. ;) Great. This is in fact the first time that my G27 gives me this sensation. Loving it! So thanks again, KevM and OzoreSX!

[TonyRickard 17]

RyuMakkuro said:

TonyRickard said:
sadly it is down to skill!

Sadly? What, you would prefer if it were purely down to the depth of someone's wallet? I think we should be happy it's down to skill (even though without a steering wheel competing for 2nd place is pointless).

"other people are faster than me, I accept that and yes, sadly it is down to skill!"

Sadly for me because other people have greater talent. Can I be any more humble?

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

I have quite similar background with TonyRickard. For me the only way I enjoy driving DiRT Rally is the realistic way. I haven't experimented with unrealistically low DOR nor low FFB nor Bonnet cams but instead using as close to realistic options I can. Times doesn't mean anything to me since I've found that you have to throw realism down the sewer if you wan't to exploit the limits of the car. I'm all for immersion type of a simmer. If I try to be as fast as possible in DR I found myself quickly changing for real sim titles. That's why my seat time has been extremely low after the first excitement. Sadly there are no proper rally simulations available. I have my hopes set up for DR2..

[dgeesi0 305]

there are many ways to play the game . its a game at the end of the day and labeling other peoples choices as "exploits" is just narrow minded. why try and label it as anything ? just because its not how you want to play ?

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

dgeesi0 said:

there are many ways to play the game . its a game at the end of the day and labeling other peoples choices as "exploits" is just narrow minded. why try and label it as anything ? just because its not how you want to play ?

Don't know did you said it to me but you already got my reply. I leave this game for those who enjoy but just wanted to say why I personally am not enjoying it as much as I should. Good for those who enjoy! :)

[KevM 44]

dgeesi0 said:

there are many ways to play the game . its a game at the end of the day and labeling other peoples choices as "exploits" is just narrow minded. why try and label it as anything ? just because its not how you want to play ?

Toyota chose one of the many ways to restrict a turbo on a Celica many moons ago, funny how the FIA got all  narrow minded about it...  It's only a sport after all!

[TonyRickard 17]

dgeesi0 said:

there are many ways to play the game . its a game at the end of the day and labeling other peoples choices as "exploits" is just narrow minded. why try and label it as anything ? just because its not how you want to play ?

The point is that many of us wish for simulations to become as close to what they are simulating as possible. There are loads of driving games but relatively few simulators.

DIRT Rally has proven quite surprising (to me at least) in developing into much more a sim than a game than I expected. The developers seem really keen to keep pushing it forward and I would hope would have a decent base of fans wishing them to do so.

Being vocal lets the developers know what we would like to see. If there is little consensus then it drops down the priority list.

I would prefer to see a rally simulator develop such that the same approach to driving, controller setups and car setups are as close as possible in virtual world to what they are in real world rallying, rather than a driving game which has its own unique methods of approach. This is a measure of success for a simulator in my view and therefore is important to me.

[dgeesi0 305]

yes trying not to be arsy about it but what about people who want different ? thats the point.

im all for as close to reality as possible but lableing others views is narrow minded. no persons view is wrong just different.

as for 900 degrees.everything else isnt realistic. well that alone isnt realistic.

as said earlier its a persons choice how to play. i have no issue with people who want to play anyway just not trying to enforce we must play like this crew.

[TonyRickard 17]

dgeesi0 said:

yes trying not to be arsy about it but what about people who want different ? thats the point.

im all for as close to reality as possible but lableing others views is narrow minded. no persons view is wrong just different.

as for 900 degrees.everything else isnt realistic. well that alone isnt realistic.

as said earlier its a persons choice how to play. i have no issue with people who want to play anyway just not trying to enforce we must play like this crew.

My summing up paragraph in my original post was:

"That isn’t to belittle the online leaderboards. It is an admiral goal and requires a huge amount of skill and dedication, just that IMHO there can be a trade off between feeling like driving a rally car fast and being a really fast sim rally driver."

My desire is to close that gap. I chose to cite the steering degrees as I have compared my own stage times (not a comparison with those getting the best stage times) and found a significant advantage with very low rates (like 8 seconds on a 3 minute stage). However, the sensation of driving diminishes.

Back in the day I thought GPL was amazing the first time I tried it with my non ffb 270 degree wheel with a bungee chord! Yet with each significant update of physics and more realistic hardware, sims that were once convincing become obsolete and the correlation to driving a real car moves on.

My intention is to put forward a point of view and see if there is any consensus. My personal view is that beyond just fast steering, the effectiveness of extreme steering angles seems a bit too effective compared to how we see professional rally drivers drive. I think it is worth the discussion along with other aspects where sim and reality may differ.

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

https://youtu.be/D3A7dyg0aj0
My way to drive DiRT. Force Feedback went to extreme & Full DOR & Cockpit view & Stick shift & Heel 'n' toe.

[TonyRickard 17]

Nahkamarakatti said:

My way to drive DiRT. Force Feedback went to extreme & Full DOR & Cockpit view & Stick shift & Heel 'n' toe.

That is the kind of driving experience I was on about! Except for the co-driver icon display ;)

[Nahkamarakatti 0]

TonyRickard said:

Nahkamarakatti said:

My way to drive DiRT. Force Feedback went to extreme & Full DOR & Cockpit view & Stick shift & Heel 'n' toe.

That is the kind of driving experience I was on about! Except for the co-driver icon display ;)

True. Forgot I had it visible since my eyes were looking the road ahead. ;)

Edit: But what a shame it would've been to drive using fast steering rack because that's the fun factor in this car. Extremely slow rack makes driving exciting. For sure you would gain a lot of time if using lower DOR but like I said before, immersion comes always before competition. Competition would be pointless without immersion. :)

[ORARick 0]

I must say this thread was a very interesting read. I admit I use bonnet view, as I do in AC, RF2 & when we used to race RF1. The only time I used cockpit was when I had a stint in IRacing, obviously as it was forced.

Many times I've wondered why bonnet view seems more comfortable for me, rather than cockpit. About the only explanation and example I can come up with is that whilst driving in cockpit I feel as though I'm looking through a letterbox slot. Now obviously in a real car one isn't doing that either, but our eyes allow us much more perspective. The other main thing that is taken away in online driving as compared to real life and I think is the main contributing factor is head and body movement to see around things, i.e. unconsciously moving our head to see around a pillar etc. Staring at a screen it's bit hard to do that, but if you find a way let me know ... lol . I guess bonnet view, for me anyway takes away those restrictions and allows me to see atleast what feels as though the same amount I would be able to see driving a real car.

Whilst typing this something dawned on me, many, many years ago, 30 to be exact, when I began racing Formula Vee, our seat positioning actually did allow us to see the majority of the front wheels and tyres, and give a good idea where the inside wheel was in relation to the track. I've no idea how the racers of today do it not being able to see anything below their horizontal line of sight outside the car.

[JZStudios 631]

TonyRickard said:

Nahkamarakatti said:

My way to drive DiRT. Force Feedback went to extreme & Full DOR & Cockpit view & Stick shift & Heel 'n' toe.

That is the kind of driving experience I was on about! Except for the co-driver icon display ;)

That's the only thing I leave on, just in case he decides to a. not call, b. call to early, or c. call to late. I just use it as a backup since I can never hear him well.