Strict Corner Cutting Rules

[Lozzy 0]

Hi all, I think this is a subject that's going to generate a lot of feedback so I want to break this out in to it's own thread. First let me explain a bit about the system.

To know a car has cut a corner first we need to know it has left the track. Kerbs are considered ON track so if you have two wheels on a kerb and two on the grass even if you're outside the white lines you're considered on track and the corner cutting rules will not come in to force.

The strict corner cutting setting is tuned to sit in between the normal and Time Trial settings. In Time Trial there is a binary choice, invalidate the lap or don't. In other sessions the player can be warned and not have their lap invalidated / be penalised. I think this might be the cause of some of the confusion about the new setting. This is certainly something we can look at.

Now, if you can give me some specific examples of corners you can cut and gain an advantage (be that time or speed in to the next section) I can look at them with debugging information turned on and see if the system is picking them up, and is tuned correctly.

I get the sense that people just want the Time Trial rules in other modes, if that's the case then just say that and I'll send that on to the designers.

[Worntoathread 865]

I would say having the Time Trial rules in qualifying and race modes would be a big improvement.

After reading your post I think the problem is ''Kerbs are considered ON track'', I believe this is a big problem for some corners/tracks. If you look at USA sector 1, the Esses for example, when these kerbs are considered the track limits, you can cut nearly every corner by just slamming down the throttle in a straight line over the kerbs, without really touching the tarmac at all, where I'd  think in real F1 this would definitely be considered as blatant corner cutting.

Time Trial does this better, but even there the kerb-limits give too much room for  cutting in a lot of instances, because some kerbs are, well, big.. Would you not consider having it as an option to treat the white lines as track limits? maybe call it a super-strict option? 

[jinCHEZ 0]

I don't want to ridicule this, but are you serious with "kerbs are considered on track"? Kerbs are always fully off the track, the white lines state the track limits and the kerbs always start where the track ends, so we got a positive and negative thing about this post. Negative; the new strict rules system doesn't work as people thought it would. Positive; we know now why that is, it's because of a false definition of track limits. I think any purist racer would love to have a strict option that simply takes the white lines. 4 tyres across that line is a warning, multiple warnings is a penalty (please in form of a drive through after 1 time penalty simply because they don't hold people up who are actually clean).

[Lozzy 0]

To my knowledge we have always considered kerbs to be on track. Certainly in the last three games they have.

jinCHEZ when you put it like that it does seem odd. I don't know why that decision was made but I'll try to find out.

[Lescadres 22]

Do you penalize the car rolling two wheels on grass and accumulating dirt on tyres, resulting in less traction for a minimum time ? That penalty would result in less corner cutting for sure.

I don't feel it is the case in that game like it was in previous games...  

Penalty for corner cutting is good but dirt on tyres which results in less traction for a while is better...

[FRACTURED 30]

If the choice is between

4 wheels outside = penalty
or
4 wheels outside but 2 on a kerb = no problems

Then I think we need to go with the Strict/TT Rules or at least make it an option. Especially as the Kerbs don't actually seem to penalize too badly in terms of causing the car to lose grip or get all wheels off the ground etc.

I'v asked @Hubbadee to post some examples from a league race :)





And you can do this on Australia to various degree's at T1/2, T3/4/5, T6/7, T9/10, T11/12 and then just to add insult to injury, the game will penalize you on the exit of 12 even if you haven't run wide, but maybe find yourself 3 abreast sticking to the left hand side out of the slight bend before 13.

So below, I think that yellow line is taken as a hard track limit and if you had 4 wheels to left you get a penalty, even though it appears to be on track. Ruined a few races in the last game(s) getting a penalty just trying to leave space for a faster car on my inside, and another time in a pack of 3 where I really couldn't go anywhere else as I had a better exit and got one for illegal overtake for being left of that yellow line. I know its last year and maybe 2013 I am talking about but like you said the definition has been the same for past few seasons.

[jinCHEZ 0]

Lozzy said:

To my knowledge we have always considered kerbs to be on track. Certainly in the last three games they have.

May I be totally honest? I never thought the previous games aced the track limits either ^^

The definition is simple; the track limits are defined by the white lines, that's all what we (or at least a bunch of players) want.

[Worntoathread 865]

jinCHEZ said:

I don't want to ridicule this, but are you serious with "kerbs are considered on track"? Kerbs are always fully off the track, the white lines state the track limits and the kerbs always start where the track ends, so we got a positive and negative thing about this post. Negative; the new strict rules system doesn't work as people thought it would. Positive; we know now why that is, it's because of a false definition of track limits. I think any purist racer would love to have a strict option that simply takes the white lines. 4 tyres across that line is a warning, multiple warnings is a penalty (please in form of a drive through after 1 time penalty simply because they don't hold people up who are actually clean).

@Lozzy I fully agree with @jinCHEZ here. Having kerbs as the track limits completely changes the essence of the circuits and corners, the line should be the limit, the kerbs should be there to drive on the edge with 2 wheels on them.

[Hubbadee 2]

Seriously dude? @Lozzy  The kerbs part of the race track.... Yes they are,but do u consider the grass to be???? I certainly don't? As far as I'm aware the 2nd white line is the track limits,meaning if ur wheel goes over that 2nd white line or past the kerb on the grass ur off the track! Got a great pic that shows a car cutting but a wheel is still on the kerb....only just,but can't work out how to post it in this topic. @FRACTURED is my picture poster hahaha

[jinCHEZ 0]

Hubbadee said:

Seriously dude? The kerbs part of the race track.... Yes they are,but do u consider the grass to be???? I certainly don't? As far as I'm aware the 2nd white line is the track limits,meaning if ur where goes over that 2nd white line ur off the track! Got a great pic that shows a car cutting but a wheel is still on the kerb....only just,but can't work out how to post it in this topic 

I assume that's towards Lozzy? What do you mean btw with 2nd white line? Is it because it's Australia and the only race track I know with 2 lines, then it is idd the white line I believe. On all other track there is just 1 white line where the tarmac ends and the kerbs start, that's the track limit line

[Catastrophi 0]

Worntoathread said:

I would say having the Time Trial rules in qualifying and race modes would be a big improvement.

After reading your post I think the problem is ''Kerbs are considered ON track'', I believe this is a big problem for some corners/tracks. If you look at USA sector 1, the Esses for example, when these kerbs are considered the track limits, you can cut nearly every corner by just slamming down the throttle in a straight line over the kerbs, without really touching the tarmac at all, where I'd  think in real F1 this would definitely be considered as blatant corner cutting.

Time Trial does this better, but even there the kerb-limits give too much room for  cutting in a lot of instances, because some kerbs are, well, big.. Would you not consider having it as an option to treat the white lines as track limits? maybe call it a super-strict option? 

Couldn't agree more. With kerbs considered on track,  you can cross a  bunch of corners with 4 wheels the white line. Which in real life Formula 1 is a cut/extend.  Just look at the enormous kerbs at Canada, considering these  kerbs on track, makes a totally different track layout. 

jinCHEZ said:

I don't want to ridicule this, but are you serious with "kerbs are considered on track"? Kerbs are always fully off the track, the white lines state the track limits and the kerbs always start where the track ends, so we got a positive and negative thing about this post. Negative; the new strict rules system doesn't work as people thought it would. Positive; we know now why that is, it's because of a false definition of track limits. I think any purist racer would love to have a strict option that simply takes the white lines. 4 tyres across that line is a warning, multiple warnings is a penalty (please in form of a drive through after 1 time penalty simply because they don't hold people up who are actually clean).

As jinCHEZ says you guys should consider drive throughs for the exact same reason he is giving.

However im glad you guys at Codies are at least giving us the opportunity to have our opinion, thanks! 

[Hubbadee 2]

jinCHEZ said:

Hubbadee said:

Seriously dude? The kerbs part of the race track.... Yes they are,but do u consider the grass to be???? I certainly don't? As far as I'm aware the 2nd white line is the track limits,meaning if ur where goes over that 2nd white line ur off the track! Got a great pic that shows a car cutting but a wheel is still on the kerb....only just,but can't work out how to post it in this topic 

I assume that's towards Lozzy? What do you mean btw with 2nd white line? Is it because it's Australia and the only race track I know with 2 lines, then it is idd the white line I believe. On all other track there is just 1 white line where the tarmac ends and the kerbs start, that's the track limit line

The 2nd white line would be the outside line of a kerb! Think about the drivers this season having laptimes erased for going over "the 2nd white line" 

[Tourgott 0]

The problem with the TT rules is, what if you make a mistake, left the track and lose time?  Do you still get a warning?
And btw. How many warnings will you get before you get penalized? I think it should be like in real F1.

[Worntoathread 865]

@Lozzy this picture right here is the problem: When kerbs are considered the track limits, people can take advantage of every corner/kerb like this example from @FRACTURED . The player should at least be penalized for having 2 wheels outside the kerb in my opinion

[DauntingConch 0]

The white lines are the definitive boundary to any track, you can of course use the kerbs as long as you keep 2 wheels within the white lines but kerbs are not part of the track, much more an outer edge of the track or overrun. 

Drivers are awarded a penalty if they are deemed to have gained an advantage through extending the track limits beyond the white line. Its a matter of discretion between stewards in real life. 

I can see why this can cause issues in a game as issues of subjectivity like if someone left the track on purpose to gain advantage is hard to judge without a human judging it. However within a game it probably needs to be on the harsher side of rules. 

Time trial seems to have got it about right, however there are some corners which invalidate your lap even though you still have 2 wheels within the white lines (a few corners in China spring to mind) 

It's frustrating in league racing when a ridiculous pole lap time comes up and you know it must of been a corner cutting lap but no way to prove it there and then. 

For me the game needs to provide a choice of corner cutting settings so a league can pick one and everyone play on same level whilst eliminating the silly pole laps set by corner cutters. 

[jinCHEZ 0]

Hubbadee said:

jinCHEZ said:

Hubbadee said:

Seriously dude? The kerbs part of the race track.... Yes they are,but do u consider the grass to be???? I certainly don't? As far as I'm aware the 2nd white line is the track limits,meaning if ur where goes over that 2nd white line ur off the track! Got a great pic that shows a car cutting but a wheel is still on the kerb....only just,but can't work out how to post it in this topic 

I assume that's towards Lozzy? What do you mean btw with 2nd white line? Is it because it's Australia and the only race track I know with 2 lines, then it is idd the white line I believe. On all other track there is just 1 white line where the tarmac ends and the kerbs start, that's the track limit line

The 2nd white line would be the outside line of a kerb! Think about the drivers this season having laptimes erased for going over "the 2nd white line" 

Driver's times were erased because they went over the first (and only) line which is between the track and kerbs. however, this wasn't done enough by the FIA but it will be stricter next season is in their notes ;)

[Lescadres 22]

The official F1 rules says that the white line is the track limit, not the curb...

In the case of this picture, the car has two wheels off the track by far. The left wheels of that car should at least touch the line to be considered on the track.

[FRACTURED 30]

In the first pic, left wheel should be left of the line rather than touching. For the second pic righ wheels should be right of the white line. Touching could mean the smallest possible slither of the tyre is touching the line, but its still a rather large cut at that point. 

[Hubbadee 2]

jinCHEZ said:

Hubbadee said:

jinCHEZ said:

Hubbadee said:

Seriously dude? The kerbs part of the race track.... Yes they are,but do u consider the grass to be???? I certainly don't? As far as I'm aware the 2nd white line is the track limits,meaning if ur where goes over that 2nd white line ur off the track! Got a great pic that shows a car cutting but a wheel is still on the kerb....only just,but can't work out how to post it in this topic 

I assume that's towards Lozzy? What do you mean btw with 2nd white line? Is it because it's Australia and the only race track I know with 2 lines, then it is idd the white line I believe. On all other track there is just 1 white line where the tarmac ends and the kerbs start, that's the track limit line

The 2nd white line would be the outside line of a kerb! Think about the drivers this season having laptimes erased for going over "the 2nd white line" 

Driver's times were erased because they went over the first (and only) line which is between the track and kerbs. however, this wasn't done enough by the FIA but it will be stricter next season is in their notes ;)

So u have a kerb! Inside and outside of the kerb! Ur wheel shouldn't be aloud over the outside of the kerb! Does that clear it up? 

[LGS469 1]

Worntoathread said:

@Lozzy this picture right here is the problem: When kerbs are considered the track limits, people can take advantage of every corner/kerb like this example from @FRACTURED . The player should at least be penalized for having 2 wheels outside the kerb in my opinion

@Lozzy @jennyannem if that guy had it right sided wheels on the kerb then it would legal. The yellow line is the boundaries of the track NOT the kerbs. Get this sorted for the Xbox one

[CBFHamilton 1]

Lozzy said:

To my knowledge we have always considered kerbs to be on track. Certainly in the last three games they have.

Probably because you never had a proper look at the FIA F1 Sporting regulations... 

[DauntingConch 0]

LGS469 said:

Worntoathread said:

@Lozzy this picture right here is the problem: When kerbs are considered the track limits, people can take advantage of every corner/kerb like this example from @FRACTURED . The player should at least be penalized for having 2 wheels outside the kerb in my opinion

@Lozzy @jennyannem if that guy had it right sided wheels on the kerb then it would legal. The yellow line is the boundaries of the track NOT the kerbs. Get this sorted for the Xbox one

It's the white line which is the track limit not yellow. Not sure what yellow indicates though! 

[no1freak 0]

@Lozzy @jennyannem 
The funny thing about Races is, that you've had a brillant working System in F1 2012. 

If you cutted a corner several times you got warnings, then a Time Penalty (10 sec or sthn. not this ridicoulus some times 2, 3, 5 or 15 seconds) and After that, the engineer told you, that this was the last warning before Drive-through. After that the Last warning before DSQ..

In this Game it is like you get a DSQ without even getting a notice before, that you should have had to be careful now. You even can become DSQd, without even getting a Penalty before. And this, in my opinion really is redicolous. 

For notice to be changed in F1 2015:
- Cut corners, for 3 or more times during ONE Single Lap or in a ROW ex. :
Last corner and First and Second or fifth, sixth and seventh : 5 Sec Stop and Go for every Time 
- Cut corners in 5 Laps (max. twice per Lap), during a Race (in 50%) : 10 Sec Stop and Go, for 3 or more times during a Lap, 5 Sec SnG for every Lap + 10 for the fifth time 
- Cut corners in several more Laps during a Race: Drive-Through
- After Drive-Through, every Cutting of corners, of more then two per Lap should result in DSQ. 
BUT WHITH A POPUP OR THE ENGINEER SPEEKING TO YOU BEFORE BECOMMING DSQd!!!!!!!!!!

The second funny thing is the Q. 
You nearly can cut every corner. Without the Time getting red. 
In my oppinion, in Q the rules should be a bit more strict than in R. Because if you are fighting "Wheel to Wheel" you sometimes take a bit to much Risk and get off the Track. 

For notice to be changed in F1 2015:
- In Q the PP SYS should work like in Time Trial. 


For F1 2016 my wishlist:
- Bring back the Safety Car
- Bring back a nice looking GUI like in F1 2010
- Bring back a nice looking GUI for searching Races with Information of the Lobby Settings Shown, BEFORE I join the Lobby. (Like in F1 2010)
- Tell me a serious way, how to safe tire wear during a Race. (Not just this ridicoulus rich to low Engine Mode, which doesnt have any effect)
- I want to be able to set my Race strategy during Q, and Most Important, therefor I want to setup my OWN Strategy. Which tire in which Lap...
- Therfor, I want a weather forecast 
- Mix the Load Setups Window from F1 2010/11/12/13 with the actual. Make a Choice:
 Load a Setup of this Track; or of an other Track. 
- The menu during Q:
Give a Choice of just making a pitstop, to set another Lap if time is Running. 
- The Menu during R:
Give a choice to set tire pressure, during R, Give a Choice, to change the Front Wing angle not only by ONE klick. If it Starts/ Stopps raining I sometimes would like to change 3 or 4 klicks
- And please... I really dont care a lot about cariere Racing, but let me Set my OWN racer which has its own, helmet, face, hairstylist, Overall, ... Who stands on the Podium After Finishing in Top3 in Multiplayer Sessions. This, really would be awesome. 

Thanks for reading and/ or answering to this. 

Kind regards,
Chris aka freak. 

[no1freak 0]

And I forgot. 
- Bring a Popup, for every Penalty given, to any Driver. 

[kev123456 0]

@jennyannem 
@Lozzy
Hi guys, this is really quite simple, for LEAGUE RACING we absolutely categorically want a strict on/off switch. Whereby if you go over the white line and gain an advantage you receive a 2 - 5 second penalty (either a loss of power or it to be added to total race time). Kerbs are not part of a race track, they are in fact next to a race track. The hard white line determines the edge of a race track. So if all 4 wheels are over the white line then a penalty shall be given. Im no game developer but I'm sure it can't be too difficult to implement this guys, its a solid white line that every track has, if you go over it you get a penalty! Simples!!
Thought should be added for going over a line and not gaining advantage also, but if its easier id just stick with 'if your over it, you get a penalty', then stick with that. 
Thanks for listening, i can guarantee that this is whats NEEDS to be implemented for everyone to be happy. If they don't like it they can switch it off.
:smile: 
Here is an example of what the race directors of the league I'm involved in have put in place to keep the racing FAIR     https://youtu.be/S8rIgHip4aA

Best wishes, Kevin Brookes