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Vettel Just Retired!


jpr3324
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47 minutes ago, jpr3324 said:

He looks like a hostage in the video.

I was gunna post a sad face but your hostage coMment made me 😂

It is a sad day. I used to like him but then I hated him but grew to like him again.   But did always laugh whenever he lost his 💩and spun whenever Hamilton was close to him

Edited by ScaredDuck
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I prefer when young guns get a go... but I think Aston need someone experienced.  I'll cover bases though. 

It would be a perfect opportunity for someone like Piastri, sure.  It'd even be a good scenario for Stroll who would get to lead the team being the experienced one.

 

However, Aston are a team with lots of resources that are doing alot worse than you'd expect.  They need someone like Vettel to direct the team into a direction they want. 

 

Hulkenberg wouldn't be a bad shout but it would look poor for him to be promoted over someone else.  He's got the tie to the team and the ability required.  Easiest transition really. 

De Vries. Showed some true signs of pace in places and he's won F2 and FE. What more would he have to do in order to get a seat?   Although, I think he's going to WEC and he's not got much actual experience of car development.

Piastri is probably going to Williams but if there's a last minute swing then Sargeant could take the Williams seat and Piastri move over.  It seems abit musical chairs to me and I don't know what Aston really gain other than a driver loaned that has some talent, but they indirectly help one of their bigger rivals. 

Drugovich may well win the F2 title and it's a smooth transition as he's got no affiliations to anyone else.  

Pourchaire - Tied to Sauber / Alfa so unlikely but he's probably the one in F2 that I think has the most potential to go somewhere with his career.  

Gasly.  Hell of a outside bet but I think there's a getout in his Alpha contract and he'd be really good for them. Both sides would get something out of it, but it's not really a step forward for him but it is a clean break.   

Ricciardo.  Again, benefit for both sides.  He gets a clean start to repair a relationship and they get a known commodity who can do a good job... usually.  Also a positive for McLaren as well, as they get a get-out-of-free clause for binning off Ricciardo and shuffling someone else from their massively expanding stable. 

Schumacher.  Allows Vettel to hover around the team as a mentor, it gives Mick a chance of experiencing a team bigger than Haas with more resources and allows both him and Stroll to battle against what would seem a relatively even battle that could make or break Mick, who hasn't done that badly against Magnussen on average (I think Kevin is pretty talented so he's a good benchmark and I don't think Stroll is the worst out there)  However, I don't think it's the best option for either Mick or Aston... but it's an option. 

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55 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

However, Aston are a team with lots of resources that are doing alot worse than you'd expect.  They need someone like Vettel to direct the team into a direction they want. 

Well they definitely screwed up a good team and are making it worse.  I don't think any experienced driver really wants to play #2 to Lance and put up with daddy's BS.  They may be better off getting a young guy.  

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45 minutes ago, jpr3324 said:

Well they definitely screwed up a good team and are making it worse.  I don't think any experienced driver really wants to play #2 to Lance and put up with daddy's BS.  They may be better off getting a young guy.  

Money talks..  any driver that hasn’t got a seat will fight for it.  Best way off showing youve got what it takes is to drive in f1.  Look at Russell.  Drove round at the back for a few seasons.. look at him now.  Williams were poor.  But he showed consistently he could finish a race.  And who’s the most consistent front runner today? 

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2 hours ago, jpr3324 said:

Well they definitely screwed up a good team and are making it worse.  I don't think any experienced driver really wants to play #2 to Lance and put up with daddy's BS.  They may be better off getting a young guy.  

I think an experienced driver who isn’t already on the grid would jump at the chance to be honest.  Presumably if they haven’t already got a seat then it’s already shaky ground for them getting in and they’d be eager to accept… but if I’m Hulkenberg then I’d look at Stroll and think I could beat him over a season.  While I do think Lance will get preferential treatment in getting an upgrade first, for example, I don’t think they’d purposely neglect one driver just so Lance looked better. 
Beating Lance convincingly is enough to rebuild a reputation and get in somewhere else if you wanted and just use this as an opportunity to get yourself back out there. 

1 hour ago, ScaredDuck said:

Money talks..  any driver that hasn’t got a seat will fight for it.  Best way off showing youve got what it takes is to drive in f1.  Look at Russell.  Drove round at the back for a few seasons.. look at him now.  Williams were poor.  But he showed consistently he could finish a race.  And who’s the most consistent front runner today? 

I’d say it’s less about the money and more the fact that F1 is the big league where most drivers would want to be. 
Russell isn’t overly a relevant comparison as he was all but guaranteed the Merc seat and it was just waiting for when the crossover for him and Bottas would be.  There’s no Red Bull, Merc or Ferrari (the big 3) that have a junior in F2 that’s ready and has the natural talent of George.  All their best shots for a future seat (bar Shwartzman, de Vries and maybe Giovinazzi at a stretch) are already in F1 at other teams. (Gasly and Tsunoda for RB, Schumacher for Ferrari and Merc can have anyone they wanted bar probably Verstappen and Leclerc)  none of the big three are taking a driver with less than 2-3 years experience these days anyway unless they’re truly spectacular like Max and Charles and you don’t want others to get them. 
Only Alpine have juniors potentially ready like Piastri and I’m not sure Aston would want to be a feeder team for them (who they’d see as a rival) in the same way Williams did for Merc (who are leagues apart).

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1 hour ago, ScaredDuck said:

Money talks..  any driver that hasn’t got a seat will fight for it.  Best way off showing youve got what it takes is to drive in f1.  Look at Russell.  Drove round at the back for a few seasons.. look at him now.  Williams were poor.  But he showed consistently he could finish a race.  And who’s the most consistent front runner today? 

Different situation with Russell, he was Toto's boy along with Ocon, they were both getting better rides at some point and they did.  The only driver with experience on the grid now would be Gasly, if he wanted to go to a slower ride or wait it out till 25 on the chance he gets a better ride  Danny Ric, could be available, if McLaren lets him go and he wanted to go to a slower ride and a team that does not have it together.  Not a good situation for any driver who has been around, even with a big pay check.  Sometimes the big money is not really worth it if the BS is too much.  

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32 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

I think an experienced driver who isn’t already on the grid would jump at the chance to be honest.  Presumably if they haven’t already got a seat then it’s already shaky ground for them getting in and they’d be eager to accept… but if I’m Hulkenberg then I’d look at Stroll and think I could beat him over a season.  While I do think Lance will get preferential treatment in getting an upgrade first, for example, I don’t think they’d purposely neglect one driver just so Lance looked better. 
Beating Lance convincingly is enough to rebuild a reputation and get in somewhere else if you wanted and just use this as an opportunity to get yourself back out there. 

Lance has been getting all the upgrades first ever since Daddy became owner, then Lance will immediately wreck it on the first time out with the upgrades.  What makes you think things will change?

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41 minutes ago, jpr3324 said:

Lance has been getting all the upgrades first ever since Daddy became owner, then Lance will immediately wreck it on the first time out with the upgrades.  What makes you think things will change?

I don’t think things will change in the situation that Lance is the primary focus of the team. 
My opinion that he isn’t too much of a factor to consider if you’re an experienced, and highly competent, driver is predicated on two factors. 
 

1.  Aston are building. Literally and figuratively.  Once their new factory is finished, they should have enough resource and capability to manufacture and provide upgrades for both cars simultaneously. Therefore, Lance won’t get that little favouritism buff as often. 
2. In the scenario where two upgrades aren’t available for a given weekend; any experienced driver they’d consider that they think would advance the team (I’m thinking a Hulk, Gasly, Ricciardo) will look at Lance and believe they can beat him on talent regardless of whether Lance has any preferential treatment for one weekend.  Even drivers like Albon (if he wanted to move up the grid from Williams) or Kvyat (who is the F1 boomerang who goes from team to team) will probably think that, while Stroll is a handy racer, they could beat him over a season. 
It’s the younger drivers like Mick that have something to risk by moving to Aston. 
 

Despite what the conspiracy theories have said about teams over the years, they really wouldn’t sabotage one driver to make another look good.  (At least not since the 90s).  

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1 hour ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

 

Despite what the conspiracy theories have said about teams over the years, they really wouldn’t sabotage one driver to make another look good.  (At least not since the 90s).  

Vettel's last year at Ferrari was a **** show for the way he was treated. Even a blind person could see it happening all Season.

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Soooo if Russell displayed marzipan levels off driving he would have still got a seat at Mercedes?   All cause he’s totos boy.   If that was the case bottas would have been replaced earlier but Toto resisted.  But what do I know 🙄

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4 hours ago, ScaredDuck said:

Soooo if Russell displayed marzipan levels off driving he would have still got a seat at Mercedes?   All cause he’s totos boy.   If that was the case bottas would have been replaced earlier but Toto resisted.  But what do I know 🙄

In what scenario would Russell have been one of, if not the worst, on the grid?    Mazepin was there for the money, Russell was there for the talent.   Russell got his foot in the door at Williams not just because he was Toto's darling, but because he was a true prodigy, plus it helped with sweetening the deal for providing an engine.    Everyone knew Russell was good enough to make it at Merc and it was just a question of when, not if.   Sure, if he stunk up the grid then he'd not be progressing up the field but everyone knew Russell was a sure thing. 

A closer comparison for Russell would have been Leclerc as both belonged to front-runners who gave them time at a lower placed team to bed in.  What a good argument would be is why Ferrari promoted Leclerc after one year but it took Russell three.  

 

The only one who can even claim to be in Russell's league based on performance in the juniors lately is Piastri and he definitely wouldn't be going there because he's Otmar's boy.   Probably the opposite as apparently Otmar didn't leave in the friendliest of fashions criticising the way the team was run with Whitmarsh coming in so why would Lawrence do him a favour? 

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1 hour ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

In what scenario would Russell have been one of, if not the worst, on the grid?    Mazepin was there for the money, Russell was there for the talent.   Russell got his foot in the door at Williams not just because he was Toto's darling, but because he was a true prodigy, plus it helped with sweetening the deal for providing an engine.    Everyone knew Russell was good enough to make it at Merc and it was just a question of when, not if.   Sure, if he stunk up the grid then he'd not be progressing up the field but everyone knew Russell was a sure thing. 

A closer comparison for Russell would have been Leclerc as both belonged to front-runners who gave them time at a lower placed team to bed in.  What a good argument would be is why Ferrari promoted Leclerc after one year but it took Russell three.  

 

The only one who can even claim to be in Russell's league based on performance in the juniors lately is Piastri and he definitely wouldn't be going there because he's Otmar's boy.   Probably the opposite as apparently Otmar didn't leave in the friendliest of fashions criticising the way the team was run with Whitmarsh coming in so why would Lawrence do him a favour? 

Marzipan there for the money?  Er his dad bought him his seat.  Either way I go back to money talks.

and No driver is ever ever a sure thing.  Recent example. Everyone and I do mean everyone was surericciardo would out perform Lando. And he atleast had a proven record and if McLaren drop him at the end off the season will likely be vettels replacement 

In  regard off arguments….. Well 💋

 

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29 minutes ago, ScaredDuck said:

Marzipan there for the money?  Er his dad bought him his seat.  Either way I go back to money talks.

and No driver is ever ever a sure thing.  Recent example. Everyone and I do mean everyone was surericciardo would out perform Lando. And he atleast had a proven record and if McLaren drop him at the end off the season will likely be vettels replacement 

In  regard off arguments….. Well 💋

 

What I mean by him being there for money reasons is that Mazepin basically bought his seat.  Ilott would have been the normal contender as the runner-up. not the guy who only just scraped into the top 5 of F2  that year.   We basically mean the same thing but i'm clarifying the financial nature wasn't why Russell was at Williams.

I'm pretty sure you can see a sure thing in junior careers most of the time.   I've been wrong before as I thought Shwartzman and Pourchaire would both fly through and they've both stumbled a little.  However, you look at dominant junior careers like Lewis, Russell, Leclerc, etc then you know they're going to the top of F1.    The only time I thought an F2 champion didn't quite live up to what I expected recently was Vandoorne. 

I think most people expected Norris and Ricciardo to be close as everyone knew Sainz was good and Norris wasn't far off him but I don't think anyone thought it would be this one-sided.  It could just be that McLaren isn't the right environment for Daniel and Aston would work better. 

 

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1 minute ago, TotosHeadphones said:

Alonso in to replace Vettel. That was quick.

Just saw that.   He's really hedging his bets on a team coming up from nothing to be really good and he's lost faith in Alpine.   At least he's not going to have any on-track battles with Ocon anymore as Esteban only ever tries to block his teammates, and lets everyone else by. 

Piastri presumably in at Alpine then. 

Then Sargeant at Williams would make sense (although his F2 season is petering off but I don't see Pourchaire going there and Drugovich is an outside possibility too).   De Vries may be a solid contender but he's supposedly already signed to WEC, although I imagine he can drop that in a heartbeat. 

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5 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

Just saw that.   He's really hedging his bets on a team coming up from nothing to be really good and he's lost faith in Alpine.   At least he's not going to have any on-track battles with Ocon anymore as Esteban only ever tries to block his teammates, and lets everyone else by. 

Piastri presumably in at Alpine then. 

Then Sargeant at Williams would make sense (although his F2 season is petering off but I don't see Pourchaire going there and Drugovich is an outside possibility too).   De Vries may be a solid contender but he's supposedly already signed to WEC, although I imagine he can drop that in a heartbeat. 

Yes, seems that he doesn't fancy having the competition from Ocon as he'll likely wipe the floor with Stroll! That and a huge paycheck. The Alpines performance has been decent though, better than the Astons from what I can think of. But I suppose we should take into account that Vettel's heart hasn't been in it.

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2 minutes ago, TotosHeadphones said:

Yes, seems that he doesn't fancy having the competition from Ocon as he'll likely wipe the floor with Stroll! That and a huge paycheck. The Alpines performance has been decent though, better than the Astons from what I can think of. But I suppose we should take into account that Vettel's heart hasn't been in it.

Yeah, taking nothing away from Stroll as I do think he's actually a really decent racer but I do think Ocon is better.  Alonso is still better than them both for the most part but it's probably a temporary death knoll for Lance as Alonso has alot more passion than what I think Vettel has had.  I think Vettel was 'done' emotionally the moment that Leclerc joined Ferrari and could match him. He knew his days of title-winning were over post 2019 as they'd focus on Charles more.  Aston was a way of stretching out the thrill of racing but I don't think he's been as invested as he was before.   In his Red Bull days, he was a 24/7 machine that was always there 24/7 always thinking of how to be better.  Now he has a family and outside commitments, that edge has gone. 

From an Aston (or Lawrence) point of view, i'd say it's the long game.  2 years of Alonso moving the team to the front and then Lance can take over when the team is actually a winning car. 

Currently Alpine are better than the Astons but Alpine, despite all their talk of trying to get back to the front, haven't improved at all since 2017.  Hulkenberg was consistently around the 7th place best-of-the-rest even if Palmer wasn't great but they've not moved forward from there and, if anything, are maybe a step back as the fifth best team behind McLaren too.   Aston have plummeted since the Racing Point and Force India days but, for even their current faults, I do think there is a genuine intention of actually investing to being at the front so I can understand Alonso's gamble here. 

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A bit early to know so much about the silly season but here we go. So for 2023, what do we already know:

Ferrari
Leclerc-Sainz

RedBull
Verstappen-Perez

Mercedes
Russell-Hamilton

McLaren
Norris-Ricciardo

Alpine
Ocon-Piastri

AstonMartin
Alonso-Stroll

Haas
Schumacher-(?)Magnussen

Sauber/Alfa
Bottas-Zhou

Williams
(?)Latifi-Albon

AlphaTauri
Gasly-Tsunoda

It looks like there is not much opportunity for Gasly other than Perez retiring (unlikely). Ricciardo has a contract, though it seems he can not compete with Norris, so there might be a small chance for Gasly at McLaren if Dr Marko let him go. Gasly to Alpine I always thought would be thematic, but with Ocon there it seems there is no need for a 2nd frenchman. So Schumacher McLaren and Gasly Alpine I dont think would be a thing. Tsunoda will get another year at AlfaTauri, espescially so if Gasly should leave, because they need a return of investment from Tsunoda, and he sure has potential, while no other RedBull Juniors seem on the rise.

As for Piastri, they might fit him into a lower seat for the starting season, but with all the talks about his talent and such, where would that be, because Alpine/Renault have no junior team? There were rumors Williams would swap engines to Renault, but given the budget cap and how much an engine swap costs for a private team, I dont really think they would, even if the Renault engines were free and they got talented Piastri for a year or two (like they had Russell with Mercedes engines before).

So, bottom line, all seats seem taken other than the Haas ones, where I suppose Ferrari has 1 seat to fit as they wish (Schumacher) and the second seat is a question mark - not sure about the Magnussen contract situation tbh. If Williams cant come up with a more competitive car, then I guess its another year for Latifi there as well (if they do not opt for a Piastri+Renault engine package).

Edited by CM_Schneehase
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51 minutes ago, CM_Schneehase said:

A bit early to know so much about the silly season but here we go. So for 2023, what do we already know:

Ferrari
Leclerc-Sainz

RedBull
Verstappen-Perez

Mercedes
Russell-Hamilton

McLaren
Norris-Ricciardo

Alpine
Ocon-Piastri

AstonMartin
Alonso-Stroll

Haas
(?)Schumacher-(?)Magnussen

Sauber/Alfa
Bottas-Zhou

Williams
(?)Latifi-Albon

AlphaTauri
Gasly-(?)Tsunoda

It looks like there is not much opportunity for Gasly other than Perez retiring (unlikely). If Williams cant come up with a more competitive car, then I guess its another year for Latifi there as well. Ricciardo has a contract, though it seems he can not compete with Norris, so there might be a small chance for Gasly at McLaren if Dr Marko let him go. Gasly to Alpine I always thought would be thematic, but with Ocon there it seems there is no need for a 2nd frechman. So Schumacher McLaren and Gasly Alpine I dont think would be a thing. Tsunoda will get another year at AlfaTauri, espescially so if Gasly should leave, because they need a return of investment from him, and he sure has potential.

So, bottom line, all seats seem taken other than the Haas ones, where I suppose Ferrari has 1 seat to fit as they wish (Schumacher) and the second seat is a question mark - not sure about the Magnussen contract situation tbh.

For a TL:DR; just jump to the bottom.

 

Ferrari - I don't see Leclerc or Sainz going anywhere.   I can see Leclerc being the first port of call for Red Bull and Mercedes if Perez has an absolute stinker for the second half of the season or Hamilton retires spontaneously.   Leclerc is clearly frustrated with Ferrari so they'll put in a cheeky question but I don't see it going anywhere.

Merc - I think both will remain again next season. Hamilton is the flight-risk but I think he wants to have one last genuine crack at a championship so he'll do next year at least.

Red Bull - Both have a contract for next season and Max clearly isn't going anywhere.  Perez has dropped off like a stone but I think he's safe for another season as Gasly hasn't lit up the grid like last year.

Alpine - Ocon is nailed down for as long as he wants it really.  Piastri will get the second seat or the Alpine Academy will just be seen as a giant joke, atlhough Doohan is the only one who could even be promoted in the next 2-3 years anyway.  Zhou is an outside option as he has a years more experience but i'd take Piastri any day.

Aston - The only true confirmed line-up without a single doubt. Alonso and Stroll for at least the next two years. 

Alpha - Yuki is kinda the guy I think they're counting on but I don't think he's done enough to justify a promotion so he'll be staying.   Gasly is the one who could go as he's probably the most desirable candidate for a upper-mid-level team like McLaren, although I think it'd kill his career as Norris would defeat him over the season.   They have a solid youth academy without anyone spectacular.  Vips has too much baggage now, Iwasa hasn't got the consistency yet, Daruvala isn't great to be honest and Lawson is their best bet but he's not really top-class.   I can't see them choosing to change the line-up but if Gasly chose to leave, then it'd have to be... out of left field... Albon.  At least, that's who i'd go for but it would undermine the Red Bull pathway. 

Haas - Kmag will be staying as he signed a multi-year deal.  I think they'll keep Mick on for another year as they're not a team that tends to chop and change (bar the one year they did for a tactical choice) but I think he's probably on flaky ground where he will need to really pull a season out of the bag to get any more out of them. 

Alfa Romeo - I think they're pretty set.  Bottas hasn't let himself down and Zhou has been relatively decent and will be a big draw in China, supposedly. 

 

Which leaves the two places of contention;

McLaren - I don't think they're brave enough to give Ricciardo the ol' heave-ho so it's whether he wants a clean break or to try something different... and I don't think he does.   I think they'll keep the same lineup but I don't think they'll be happy about it. 

Williams - This could go anywhere. On the proviso that Albon isn't recalled to Alpha then he's a definite stay as he's done enough to justify it.  Latifi... has not.   They don't need to get rid of him but I think, if they're wanting to be taken seriously then they do need to.  With Stroll, Aitken and Latifi all being a part of their academy and being promoted then they do have history of dipping into it. Sargeant is the most obvious choice as he's the only candidate even half-ready... but I don't think he offers anything much better than Latifi does tbh.   I'd have to say de Vries would be my choice. He's won F2, and he's won FE.  He's not exactly generational... but he's decent enough.   The downside is that it does make Williams a dumping ground for drivers that the main teams can't accommodate. 

 

Ferrari - Leclerc and Sainz

Mercedes - Hamilton and Russell

Red Bull - Verstappen and Perez

McLaren - Norris and Ricciardo

Alpine - Ocon and Piastri

Aston - Alonso and Stroll

Alpha - Gasly and Tsunoda

Alfa - Bottas and Zhou

Haas - Magnussen and Schumacher

Williams - Albon and de Vries

 

So silly season is going to end up being... quiet. de Vries for Latifi being a straight swap and Piastri just stepping into the vacant Alpine seat. 

Edited by SmokyAtom07
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2 minutes ago, CM_Schneehase said:

Meanwhile, Alpine has confirmed my decision 😁😄😛 shortest silly season ever folks!

I wouldn’t count on that…. Oscar has said it’s not true and he won’t drive for alpine. 
this is the silliest season since Van see Garde tried to drive for a team that didn’t want him.   (Id say rosberg leaving and massa doing another year but that was post-season) 

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15 minutes ago, SmokyAtom07 said:

Guess he is McLaren after all… or hacked. It’s very similar to Palio’s thing but it’s genuine as this is a screenshot I took. 

Now, this is going to be fun - there is a special F1 talent, eargerly waiting to get into F1, testing with a team plus financially supported by a team, and as soon as its in the press that he is to join that team in 2023, his twitter (=his management) is denying that. Can only mean he has already signed with a different team. Funny. I would fall off the chair laughing if Dr Marko has snatched him for RedBull and he would join either RedBull or AlphaTauri in 2023. Haha!

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